When does God put souls into bodies?

[Gregg]

That wasn't my point. My point is that Gen 2:7 shows that God prepared a body for Adam's soul. Just as God prepared a body for the Last Adam, per Heb 10:5. Of course the Son of God has always existed. That was never an issue. My point was only to show order or sequence. Body before soul goes in. And we see exactly that in the first and Last Adam. So there is no reason to think that God would REVERSE that order or sequence for everyone else.

We know the LORD's sequence; He pre-existed His body of flesh. But we do not know the order [if any, as it may be simultaneous] that the LORD created Adams constituent parts. He could have created his soul and spirit when He formed Adam from the dust but before He breathed into him, or He could have created his soul and spirit when He breathed into Him, or He could have done all three at the same time:

Gen 2:7 LITV
1. "And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground,
2. and blew into his nostrils the breath of life;
3. and man became a living soul."
​

The "and" 's in Gen 2:7 are not necessarily sequential - they could be simultaneous; but I will leave that up to the Hebrew language experts.

The order of body before soul is the only issue.

The Son of God [the Last Adam] existed before His body, but you are saying Adam's body came before His soul. Am I missing something, as these are not the same order. Are you referring to something else being the same order?

There is no purpose for a fertilized egg to have a soul.

Who told you that? Perhaps you are unaware of the purpose.

If he thought that human life began at conception, why didn't he wish for a miscarriage or abortion?

Could be any of a thousand reasons, bu I am not all knowing.

They were talking about feeling movement in their wombs.

And their struggle [perhaps abnormal in its nature or frequency] troubled Rebekah enough that she inquired of the LORD. I am guessing about the nature of her question, but this seems reasonable.

 

[FreeGrace]

We know the LORD's sequence; He pre-existed His body of flesh. But we do not know the order [if any, as it may be simultaneous] that the LORD created Adams constituent parts.

My point hasn't been when God created the soul. It is when He combined the immaterial soul with the material body. And Gen 2:7 shows the order of preparing a body before joining to it the immaterial soul.

He could have created his soul and spirit when He formed Adam from the dust but before He breathed into him, or He could have created his soul and spirit when He breathed into Him, or He could have done all three at the same time

But non of which matters, since the issue is when man became "a living being". Or a living human being. Neither the formed body alone nor the immaterial breath of life are a human being. Only when they are combined. And James 2:26 informs us that when the soul leaves the body, the human being is considered dead. Even if on life support machines to keep the organs functioning for donation.

​

The "and" 's in Gen 2:7 are not necessarily sequential - they could be simultaneous; but I will leave that up to the Hebrew language experts.

But they gave us the order of preparing a material body and THEN breathing in the immaterial part, and THEN the declaration that "man became a living being.

So, neither the material or the immaterial alone is a human being. And because we know that all will be resurrected, all souls will exist in eternity in a body.

The Son of God [the Last Adam] existed before His body, but you are saying Adam's body came before His soul.

Not actually. I am only noting the order of WHEN the soul (immaterial part) is combined or joined to the body (material part). Whether God has already created all souls for all of humanity is not part of my view here. It doesn't matter when He creates the soul.

However, the opposing view has it that conception is WHEN a living human being is created. That the soul is created at conception. Where is that even hinted at in Scripture?

Am I missing something, as these are not the same order. Are you referring to something else being the same order?

The order that I speak of is WHEN God joins the material with the immaterial.

Who told you that? Perhaps you are unaware of the purpose.

Please explain the purpose, then, of putting a soul into a fertilized egg.

I said this:
"f he thought that human life began at conception, why didn't he wish for a miscarriage or abortion?"

Could be any of a thousand reasons, bu I am not all knowing.

I don't see any. His focus was on dying early. He was one of God's "showcases" to Satan. He was blameless and upright, feared God and shunned evil. I don't think he was ignorant of things. I think he knew full well when human life begins. And that is precisely what he expressed in his desire to have died before what he was experiencing.

And their struggle [perhaps abnormal in its nature or frequency] troubled Rebekah enough that she inquired of the LORD. I am guessing about the nature of her question, but this seems reasonable.

This verse is just a distraction from the order of WHEN God combines the material with the immaterial, which results in a living human being.

We see the order in the first Adam in Gen 2:7 and in the Last Adam in Heb 10:5. This has not been explained otherwise, nor refuted.

Like the Bereans, I have searched the Scriptures daily (diligently) to see whether "these things" be true, and I have found them to be unrefuted in Scripture.

The fact that "these things" are contrary to popular opinion does not sway me. Scripture sways me. Until I see Scripture that sways me away from my view, there is no reason to change.

Recall how unpopular Martin Luther was when he realized the truth of Romans and justification was by faith!! He was heavily persecuted for going against the popular opinion of the day. Yet, he was right. His opponents were wrong.

When someone can show me from Scripture that my view is wrong, I will definitely recant. But just providing verses that refer to a growing fetus as a "child" or has been named proves nothing other than the natural fact that we naturally expect the fetus to be birthed as a human being. Naming a baby before birth doesn't prove it has a soul. But we do expect that when it is born, it will be human, of course.

Does a fertilized egg look human? No. Does an ambryo look human? No. In fact, in the early stages of development, a human embryo can look rather similar to any number of animal embryos.

I will repeat: I am not in favor, and in fact oppose, the casual ending of physiological or biological life in the womb. Therefore, I am opposed to any casual approach to abortion.

Let me ask you or anyone on this thread: if your wive's life is in high danger of dying during childbirth, and there is a choice to end the pregnancy or let her deliver and die, what would you do?

 

[JLB]

But they gave us the order of preparing a material body and THEN breathing in the immaterial part, and THEN the declaration that "man became a living being.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Man was not declared to be "living" until the spirit entered him.

The dust was molded or formed, the the breath [spirit] of life was breathed into it, and it became "living".

This is not so with the rest of mankind, as we were conceived within our mother's womb.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Man was not declared to be "living" until the spirit entered him.

The dust was molded or formed, the the breath [spirit] of life was breathed into it, and it became "living".

This is not so with the rest of mankind, as we were conceived within our mother's womb.
JLB

It's the ORDER of WHEN the material is joined with the immaterial. Which is the SAME for the first and Last Adam, according to Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5. There is NO evidence that God REVERSES that ORDER for anyone else.

You've not proven that God puts the immaterial in to any unprepared material. Unless one can do that, there can be no refutation of my view. Which comes from Scripture.

 

[WIP]

I'm beginning to think this thread has run its course. Both sides are sticking to their positions and nothing new is being posted so we're just repeating the same thing over and over.

 

[JLB]

It's the ORDER of WHEN the material is joined with the immaterial. Which is the SAME for the first and Last Adam, according to Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5. There is NO evidence that God REVERSES that ORDER for anyone else.

You've not proven that God puts the immaterial in to any unprepared material. Unless one can do that, there can be no refutation of my view. Which comes from Scripture.

Adam was created from the dust of the ground, and was not living until spirit entered him.

Jesus Christ on the other hand was conceived of the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb.


Two completely different scenario's.

Adam was created.

Jesus Christ was begotten.

You are trying two meld together a life that was created with a life that was begotten.

Adam was not conceived in a mothers womb, he was created from dust.

An infant child that is growing in it's mothers womb has a spirit within, or it is dead.

A dead body can not grow.

A body without a spirit is dead.

You will never get around this foundational truth.

There is no use you trying to tie together Hebrews 10:5 and Genesis 2:7, since Adam was created directly by God.

Jesus Christ was begotten by God the Father.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

The order that I speak of is WHEN God joins the material with the immaterial.

Can of worms, bro!

 

[JCitoL]

Most of Christianity believes that the moment of conception is when a human being is created, body and soul.

However, from Gen 2:7, we see that God FIRST prepared a body "from the dust of the ground", BEFORE He breathed into the nostrils the "breath of life", or soul. Only then did "man become a living being". So, for the first Adam, the order was prepare a body, and then put the soul into the body, creating a living being.

Also, we know from Heb 10:5 that God prepared a body for the Son of God. So, for the Last Adam, the order was prepare a body for His Son. Obviously God didn't create a soul for His Son, since His Son has always existed. But Heb 10:5 does indicate that a body was prepared for Him.

So it would appear that God's order is to prepare a body before the soul is placed into the body.

Can anyone show from Scripture that God's order is REVERSED for everyone else, if in fact the soul is created at conception?

it is from the moment of the conception on, He takes a soul from the so-called nullity/nonentity(the "dust of the ground" in Genesis 2:7) and puts it into the body

Blessings

 

[FreeGrace]

Adam was created from the dust of the ground, and was not living until spirit entered him.

Correction. Adam was NOT a living being until God breathed into his nostrils. Animals are alive, yet are not human beings.

Jesus Christ on the other hand was conceived of the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb.

As are all of humanity minus Adam and the woman. I don't see any relevance here as my point is about the ORDER of WHEN a human form is considered a living being. How that occurs has never been the point. So your point is just a distraction from the OP.

Two completely different scenario's.

A total distraction from the OP.

Adam was created.
Jesus Christ was begotten.

Both are created. Unless you don't believe that you were created in the womb. Is that correct???

You are trying two meld together a life that was created with a life that was begotten.

Red herring.

Adam was not conceived in a mothers womb, he was created from dust.

There is no relevance of this point to the OP.

An infant child that is growing in it's mothers womb has a spirit within, or it is dead.

Depends on whether one understands the fact of biological life and soul life, which must both be present in order to be a living human being. Remove the soul from the body and the human being is dead.

A dead body can not grow.

Untrue. Life support machines keep cells alive for organ donations. Cells that are alive continue to reproduce, which is another way of saying that they grow.

A body without a spirit is dead.

Correct, but I see no relevance of this to the OP.

You will never get around this foundational truth.

This is totally untrue, as as just been shown.

There is no use you trying to tie together Hebrews 10:5 and Genesis 2:7, since Adam was created directly by God.

There is no relevancy of this point to the OP, which is about WHEN God joins a material body with an immaterial soul. So how the body is formed isn't the point at all. Never has been.

Jesus Christ was begotten by God the Father.

While true, this also has nothing to do with the OP. It is just another distraction.
JLB[/QUOTE]
I have responded to every point made in your post, which has ignored the OP completely and brought up irrelevant points that aren't at all related to the OP.

Please address the OP and discuss WHEN God joins the material body with the immaterial soul, for that is WHEN one becomes a living human being. Not before that union.

Both the first and Last Adam had material bodies prepared BEFORE the soul was united with the body, as both Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5 indicate. Gen 2:7 is direct, and Heb 10:5 indicates that.

You've not shown otherwise. The distracting and irrelevant points haven't advanced the discussion one bit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Can of worms, bro!

How so? The issue is WHEN does God join the material body with the immaterial soul. Because, according to Gen 2:7, that is WHEN man becomes a living human being. Soul life joined to biological life. Both are needed in order to be a living human being. Separate these 2 lives, and the person is described as dead.

 

[FreeGrace]

it is from the moment of the conception on, He takes a soul from the so-called nullity/nonentity(the "dust of the ground" in Genesis 2:7) and puts it into the body

Blessings

I don't understand. Where do you find that God has taken a soul from the "dust of the ground"? Gen 2:7 says that God formed man (his biological or physiological) body from the dust of the ground, and THEN breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and THEN man "became a living human being". Not before the joining of body and soul to be a person.

A body without the soul isn't a person. It is just a body.

 

[JCitoL]

I don't understand. Where do you find that God has taken a soul from the "dust of the ground"? Gen 2:7 says that God formed man (his biological or physiological) body from the dust of the ground, and THEN breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and THEN man "became a living human being". Not before the joining of body and soul to be a person.

A body without the soul isn't a person. It is just a body.

it is superimposed(layered) in (the) meaning, i.e. it means both the soul taken from the nullity/nonentity and the human body taken from the dust/soil of the ground - many biblical verses are superimposed

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Blessings

 

[FreeGrace]

it is superimposed(layered) in (the) meaning, i.e. it means both the soul taken from the nullity/nonentity and the human body taken from the dust/soil of the ground - many biblical verses are superimposed

I don't understand why superimposition would be seen in Gen 2:7. What is clear is an order. God formed man from the dust of the ground. This refers to his physical, or biological, or physiological material part.

Then, God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. This refers to the immaterial part of man, called the soul. It was imputed into a prepared body.

Finally, man "became a living (human) being". iow, to be a living human being, there needs to be both a human physical body and a soul.

I don't see any superimposition or why it would be necessary.

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Blessings

Exactly!

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

Well really, what is there to argue about? What does the scripture say? It says this_______________

That should be it.

 

[JCitoL]

I don't understand why superimposition would be seen in Gen 2:7. What is clear is an order. God formed man from the dust of the ground. This refers to his physical, or biological, or physiological material part.

Then, God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. This refers to the immaterial part of man, called the soul. It was imputed into a prepared body.

Finally, man "became a living (human) being". iow, to be a living human being, there needs to be both a human physical body and a soul.

I don't see any superimposition or why it would be necessary.


Exactly!

may God not let any soul suffer any more/longer providing all of them with abundant life even as to the still living in this world, but it was also said and written:

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 "If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he. For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness. Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other."

so God breathed the breath of life including into the nostrils of the soul of the respective human/besouled being, because where does the soul of each living being come from/out of?!, there must be something, and it is exactly the nullity/nonentity where the still uncreated souls exist in a state of nonexistence or in other words in a condition of deep sleep without dreams(-ing) - it is another kind of "dust of the ground"

Blessings

 

[JLB]

Both the first and Last Adam had material bodies prepared BEFORE the soul was united with the body, as both Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5 indicate. Gen 2:7 is direct, and Heb 10:5 indicates that.

Totally untrue as you have been shown.

Adam was made, created from the dust of the ground.

Jesus was begotten, and was developed in Mary's womb.

The dust of the ground became the man Adam, which is spirit soul and body a living being.

A child must have a spirit within to be alive and develop.

For the body without the spirit is dead. James 2:26

Can't be refuted!


JLB

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

 

[JLB]

Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Great scripture!

Thanks for sharing.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Both the first and Last Adam had material bodies prepared BEFORE the soul was united with the body, as both Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5 indicate. Gen 2:7 is direct, and Heb 10:5 indicates that."

Totally untrue as you have been shown.

In fact, I have been showing that Gen 2:7 SAYS that God formed the man BEFORE breathing in the breath of life. For all to see. Denying that fact doesn't eliminate that fact.

Adam was made, created from the dust of the ground.

BEFORE God breathed into him the breath of life. That is ORDER for those with eyes to see.

Jesus was begotten, and was developed in Mary's womb.

His body was PREPARED during the 9 month gestation. Prepared for what? His soul.

The dust of the ground became the man Adam, which is spirit soul and body a living being.

AFTER God breathed into it. Only AFTER God breathed into it.

A child must have a spirit within to be alive and develop.

Please don't make claims unless there is support from Scripture. Your claim here suggests that animals must have a spirit within to be alive and develop. Is that your position? If so, from what Scripture?

For the body without the spirit is dead. James 2:26

This means that without the spirit there is no human life. There is no human life in the womb. Not until God gives it the breath of life. Which is AFTER God prepares the body.

Can't be refuted!

Just was, again.

 

[FreeGrace]

Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

There are 3 phrases here. Let's break them down.

#1 "Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground" This refers to the preparation of the body, or the material part of man. No argument, hopefully.

#2 "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" This refers to placing the immaterial part of man, commonly called the soul into the prepared body.

#3 "and the man BECAME a living creature/being" This refers to the point in time WHEN the material joined with the immaterial BECOMES a living human being. Not before the joining, and not after the separation.

Gen 2:7 reveals the ORDER that God used to create the first human being: material body prepared, immaterial soul placed in the body, and man became a living being.