When does God put souls into bodies?

[Deborah13]

I think that there is a word that is more clear than shakol. näphel which comes from the verb nAphal.
Job 3:16~~New American Standard Bible
"Or like a miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, As infants that never saw light.

Ecc 6:3-5 NASB~~3 If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, “Better the miscarriage than he, 4 for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. 5“It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.

The clue word in Job 3:16 that shows this is not a miscarriage is the fact that it is ''hidden", both the act of the discontinued pregnancy and the discarded are hidden. There is no reason to hide or discard a miscarried child.
The word translated as 'discard' in the NASB is translated as 'hidden' in the KJV and YLT.
That word is
H2934
טמן
ṭâman
taw-man'
A primitive root; to hide (by covering over): - hide, lay privily, in secret.

Young's Literal Translation
Job 3:16 (Or as a hidden abortion I am not, As infants--they have not seen light.)
The very definition of the word 'nephal' is 'fallen'.

Ecc 6:3 If a man doth beget a hundred, and live many years, and is great, because they are the days of his years, and his soul is not satisfied from the goodness, and also he hath not had a grave, I have said, `Better than he is the untimely birth.'
Ecc 6:4 For in vanity he came in, and in darkness he goeth, and in darkness his name is covered,
Ecc 6:5 Even the sun he hath not seen nor known, more rest hath this than that.
Here again we have a clue 'in darkness his name is covered'. Why would his name be covered in darkness?
That word for covered is...
H3680
כּסה
kâsâh
kaw-saw'
A primitive root; properly to plump, that is, fill up hollows; by implication to cover (for clothing or secrecy): - clad self, close, clothe, conceal, cover (self), (flee to) hide, overwhelm.

There is no reason for a miscarriage to be hidden or kept secret, there is nothing wicked (darkness) or shameful to hide.
My simple interpretation is...
" and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial;" This is an accusation against the man, he didn't appreciate what God gave him, his soul is filled with vanity. The memory of a lost child by miscarriage would be too good for him, better that all memory of his weakness be covered over, as is a hidden abortion.

 

[gr8grace3]

The clue word in Job 3:16 that shows this is not a miscarriage is the fact that it is ''hidden", both the act of the discontinued pregnancy and the discarded are hidden. There is no reason to hide or discard a miscarried child.
The word translated as 'discard' in the NASB is translated as 'hidden' in the KJV and YLT.
That word is
H2934
טמן
ṭâman
taw-man'
A primitive root; to hide (by covering over): - hide, lay privily, in secret.

Young's Literal Translation
Job 3:16 (Or as a hidden abortion I am not, As infants--they have not seen light.)
The very definition of the word 'nephal' is 'fallen'.

Ecc 6:3 If a man doth beget a hundred, and live many years, and is great, because they are the days of his years, and his soul is not satisfied from the goodness, and also he hath not had a grave, I have said, `Better than he is the untimely birth.'
Ecc 6:4 For in vanity he came in, and in darkness he goeth, and in darkness his name is covered,
Ecc 6:5 Even the sun he hath not seen nor known, more rest hath this than that.
Here again we have a clue 'in darkness his name is covered'. Why would his name be covered in darkness?
That word for covered is...
H3680
כּסה
kâsâh
kaw-saw'
A primitive root; properly to plump, that is, fill up hollows; by implication to cover (for clothing or secrecy): - clad self, close, clothe, conceal, cover (self), (flee to) hide, overwhelm.

There is no reason for a miscarriage to be hidden or kept secret, there is nothing wicked (darkness) or shameful to hide.
My simple interpretation is...
" and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial;" This is an accusation against the man, he didn't appreciate what God gave him, his soul is filled with vanity. The memory of a lost child by miscarriage would be too good for him, better that all memory of his weakness be covered over, as is a hidden abortion.

Thanks Deb.

 

[Deborah13]

Near birtht???? You ever raised a teenager? They're far from fully functional. Especially in the early morning.

But human they are.

ain't that a fact!

 

[gr8grace3]

OK, let's do this carefully. Note these EXACT words in v.5: "a body hast thou prepared me".

Your KJV is rather rusty. Let's do the NASB, which reads much more smoothly:
Heb 10:5 -
Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;

It could not be more clear than that. God the Father prepared a body for Jesus to become humanity.

Just as God prepared a body (formed man from the dust of the ground) BEFORE He breathed into its nostrils.

Which came first: nostrils or breath of life? That ends all argument. Or should.

You know FreeGrace, I was deceived in religion for the first 10 years of my salvation.And I want the truth! And I thank you for sticking to the word.
I have only been studying this doctrine of no soul life in the womb for a short time(but its been a couple years) and still don't have it all worked out in my head.
But this thread has helped. I see emotion and political agendas answer your questions and nothing that just addresses your point from scripture.

What do I, or anybody have to look forward to for believing no soul life in the womb? Being called a baby killer,pro-abortion,scorned,hated by some.....What the hell would I WANT to believe this for? I am just pretty sure I HAVE to believe it, from scripture.

Your as solid as a rock in your doctrine and thanks.

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

The Bible as far as I have read and in the beginning when God created Adam tells us the soul deposits with our first breath.Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person. (Job 33:4 ,Ezekiel 37:5-6, )

Most of Christianity believes that the moment of conception is when a human being is created, body and soul.

However, from Gen 2:7, we see that God FIRST prepared a body "from the dust of the ground", BEFORE He breathed into the nostrils the "breath of life", or soul. Only then did "man become a living being". So, for the first Adam, the order was prepare a body, and then put the soul into the body, creating a living being.

Also, we know from Heb 10:5 that God prepared a body for the Son of God. So, for the Last Adam, the order was prepare a body for His Son. Obviously God didn't create a soul for His Son, since His Son has always existed. But Heb 10:5 does indicate that a body was prepared for Him.

So it would appear that God's order is to prepare a body before the soul is placed into the body.

Can anyone show from Scripture that God's order is REVERSED for everyone else, if in fact the soul is created at conception?

 

[WIP]

This thread has been straying away from our forum guidelines and leaning toward personal opinion and reasoning rather than resting on scripture. I'd like to see it move back toward following the guidelines so emotions stay in check.

Thank you.

 

[Deborah13]

The Bible as far as I have read and in the beginning when God created Adam tells us the soul deposits with our first breath.Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person. (Job 33:4 ,Ezekiel 37:5-6, )

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

What is the breath of the Almighty? Does God, who is spirit have a physical breath or is His breath something spiritual?

Young's Literal Translation from the Hebrew
Eze 37:5 Thus said the Lord Yehovah to these bones: Lo, I am bringing into you a spirit, and ye have lived,
Eze 37:6 and I have given on you sinews, and cause flesh to come up upon you, and covered you over with skin, and given in you a spirit, and ye have lived, and ye have known that I am Yehovah.'
[I change the 'J' to a 'Y' in Yehovah because the J spelling bothers some people. Mr. Young spelled it with a 'J']

 

[n2thelight]

freegrace
"The basis for my view is taken directly from both Gen 2:7 and Hebn 10:5, where the order for the first and Last Adam is the same: body BEFORE soul. There is no reason for God to reverse that order for everyone else."
..................................................................................................................................................................................
Christ did not have a body before being born of woman,yet He was........Same with us....In other words we were there before here,same as Christ
The flesh needs the spirit and soul,the spirit and soul does not need the flesh........

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"OK, if one believes that the moment of conception creates a living human being, meaning complete with soul/spirit or whatever one would like to call it, WHY would God REVERSE that order for everyone except the first and Last Adam, per Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5?"

Are those reverse orders?

I wasn't talking about "orders" as in commands, but rather, "order" (singular) as in sequence.

Gen 2:7 is clear that God first prepared a body before He breathed into it the breath of life. iow, body before becoming a living soul.

Which came first: nostrils (prepared body) or soul (breath of life)? That is the sequence for Gen 2:7 and is seen in Heb 10:5.

If everyone else has a soul at conception, WHY the change in sequence?

 

[FreeGrace]

So what?

So…everything.

Which came first; nostrils or breath of life?

Our bodies are not prepare like Adam's was, from the dust of the earth and fulling grown. When a child leaves the womb it is not fully grown.

That would be only difference. While God no doubt very quickly formed the body from the chemicals of the ground, God's plan for everyone else, including the Last Adam, is a 9 month incubation process.

Your point is irrelevant. It is the order or sequence that is relevant. Please notice that Jesus never said "a zygote You prepared for Me". He said a body.

Are you saying that a child does not have a soul until they are fully grown, like Adam was?

Heaven's, no. My point has been about being fully developed, as in full term, when the baby is born. Those babies not fully developed do not survive birth. We call that a miscarriage.

If you are going to compare us to Adam your comparison of the growth of the body is not comparable and neither is the material used to create the body.

I haven't, so irrelevant.

Why would God have to breath into a person's nostrils, like He did Adam's, when they are already receiving the oxygen they need to live while in the womb.

Who said He does? The breathing in of the breath of life is the imputation of the soul, thus man "became a living soul", or what we call a human being.

Please reread what I said. A zygotes body is perfectly prepared to live in the environment that it is in.

Not applicable. Human beings don't function in a womb. They function out of the womb. That's why the culmination of the 9 month gestation is called birth.

My point was/is about the ORDER; nostrils before the breath of life. Your view has it backwards, breath of life before nostrils. How can one not see that?

Because after Adam and Eve, one does NOT need nostrils to receive the oxygen they need to live. So if all God did was breath air into Adam nostrils so he could live then that step is no longer needed any more than nostrils are.

You're missing the point. Just as God prepared a physical body for Adam's soul, He also prepared a body for the Last Adam.

Do you remember when I told you that you were focusing on the physical nostrils? Because that is your whole point, if one does not have physical nostrils then they are not a living being/soul. That is your whole premise stated in a nutshell.

You're missing the point completely. My focus is on sequence as found in Gen 2:7.

For what reason does that scripture say it was prepared? Does it say for a soul?

The point is that Scripture SAYS that a body was prepared for the Last Adam. Just as God prepared a body for the first Adam. That is irrefutable.

There isn't any order shown in Hebrews 10:5 for the body then soul.

Are you saying that Jesus' soul didn't exist until conception? And I cannot believe anyone would argue that an egg is a prepared body". A single cell is NOT a prepared body. It isn't even close to being a human being physically. That's just a distraction from the sequence which seems to make some here squeamish.

Where is the scripture that says Jesus body was prepared for His Soul?

Heb 10:5 says that the Father prepared a body for the Son. A single egg is NOT a prepared body. It's just a cell. 1 cell does NOT equal 1 body. Your premise is wrong.

Brother Mike is correct when he says the soul is the mind, thoughts, feelings.

No, that is wrong. Which I refuted.

You made your argument using Revelation 6:9 to refute his statement but it actually supports his statement.
Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls [psuche/psyche] of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,
Rev 6:10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'
By the very definition of soul they could not have a testimony or the feelings connected to crying out for revenge if they did not have memory, voices, and feelings, soul.
And don't try to say that they couldn't have voices if they didn't have a body with a mouth. They were also spirit and we don't have to use our mouths to communicate with God.

Nice try. They expressed feelings, but our soul is FAR MORE than just feelings or thoughts.

1Sa_1:15 And Hannah answereth and saith, `No, my lord, A woman sharply pained in spirit [ruach] I am , and wine and strong drink I have not drunk, and I pour out my soul [nephesh] before Yehovah;
Hannah's spirit was grieved and she told God her thoughts and feelings.

Sure, the soul is where we have thoughts and feelings. But don't equate each other. The thoughts and feelings come from the soul. Not the other way around. They are not equal.

 

[FreeGrace]

Near birtht???? You ever raised a teenager? They're far from fully functional. Especially in the early morning.

So many people are missing the point. By functional, is meant bodily functional. As in being able to live outside the womb, which is how human beings are DESIGNED to live (or function).

But human they are.

Some might argue about that.

 

[FreeGrace]

You know FreeGrace, I was deceived in religion for the first 10 years of my salvation.And I want the truth! And I thank you for sticking to the word.
I have only been studying this doctrine of no soul life in the womb for a short time(but its been a couple years) and still don't have it all worked out in my head.
But this thread has helped. I see emotion and political agendas answer your questions and nothing that just addresses your point from scripture.

What do I, or anybody have to look forward to for believing no soul life in the womb? Being called a baby killer,pro-abortion,scorned,hated by some.....What the hell would I WANT to believe this for? I am just pretty sure I HAVE to believe it, from scripture.

Your as solid as a rock in your doctrine and thanks.

I'm sure some think that rock is somewhere between my ears.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Bible as far as I have read and in the beginning when God created Adam tells us the soul deposits with our first breath.Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person. (Job 33:4 ,Ezekiel 37:5-6, )

Yes, that follows the sequence of Gen 2:7.

 

[FreeGrace]

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

What is the breath of the Almighty? Does God, who is spirit have a physical breath or is His breath something spiritual?

Job 33:4 follows the same sequence as found in Gen 2:7. God made him and then gave him life.

I have asked the question to several posters; why did Job say this in 3:11?
“Why did I not die at birth, Come forth from the womb and expire?"

If life begins at conception, why would Job mention birth rather than at conception?

 

[FreeGrace]

freegrace
"The basis for my view is taken directly from both Gen 2:7 and Hebn 10:5, where the order for the first and Last Adam is the same: body BEFORE soul. There is no reason for God to reverse that order for everyone else."
..................................................................................................................................................................................
Christ did not have a body before being born of woman,yet He was........Same with us....In other words we were there before here,same as Christ

I didn't find any source for this view. What Scriptures teach this?

 

[JLB]

lol!!

Rather, he demonstrated a failure to understand and distinguish between physiological or biological life and soul life.

No life or growth of the body without the spirit.

The Human body in it's most conceptual form can not be alive and grow without the spirit within.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


There can be no life in a human body without the spirit.

...the body without the spirit is dead.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

No life or growth of the body without the spirit.

The Human body in it's most conceptual form can not be alive and grow without the spirit within.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


There can be no life in a human body without the spirit.

...the body without the spirit is dead.JLB

Please address the OP. Thanks.

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

I would suggest that being God tells us he is a spirit that his breath is that spirit that then enters the life born into this world. The breath of life.

Just as scripture is called God's breath. And 'the word'. Which the scriptures tell us is God.
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

What is the breath of the Almighty? Does God, who is spirit have a physical breath or is His breath something spiritual?

Young's Literal Translation from the Hebrew
Eze 37:5 Thus said the Lord Yehovah to these bones: Lo, I am bringing into you a spirit, and ye have lived,
Eze 37:6 and I have given on you sinews, and cause flesh to come up upon you, and covered you over with skin, and given in you a spirit, and ye have lived, and ye have known that I am Yehovah.'
[I change the 'J' to a 'Y' in Yehovah because the J spelling bothers some people. Mr. Young spelled it with a 'J']

 

[chessman]

I have asked the question to several posters; why did Job say this in 3:11?
“Why did I not die at birth, Come forth from the womb and expire?"

because he was alive and suffering terribly at the hand of Satan.
But did you know that in order to die, you must be alive? Job was alive in the womb prior to birth , else he wouldn't have preferred death.

If life begins at conception, why would Job mention birth rather than at conception?

Maybe he liked being in his mother's womb.

But the better question is, why did Job mention dying at birth if he wasn't alive yet?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I have asked the question to several posters; why did Job say this in 3:11?
“Why did I not die at birth, Come forth from the womb and expire?""

because he was alive and suffering terribly at the hand of Satan.

Missing the point. why did he focus on birth instead of conception, IF human life begins at conception?

But did you know that in order to die, you must be alive? Job was alive in the womb prior to birth , else he wouldn't have preferred death.

If he was alive as a human being, why didn't he ask why he didn't die IN THE WOMB then?

But the better question is, why did Job mention dying at birth if he wasn't alive yet?

Because he WAS alive AT birth.

My question is still being dodged. If human life begins at conception, why didn't he wonder why he didn't die in the womb.