When Does Union With Christ Happen?

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

I don't see literal baptism here because water doesn't clean anything. Repentance washes away the sins of the body, not water. And the Holy Spirit cleanses the guilt of a man, not water. Water is a symbol. It's a commanded symbol, but still, a symbol of faith and repentance.

To me the real questions are, "can a person who believes the gospel resist baptism, and if that's possible, what are the implications of doing that?" But, as I say, it may make for interesting discussion but it's a moot point to baptized believers.

That water itself doesn't do anything, it what God does when one goes into the water.

Or before, or after...as Cornelius, and some Samaritan and Ephesian believers know. They received the manifestation of the spiritual gifts apart from water baptism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Acts records the conversion of the Ephesians and it records that they received the Holy Spirit following their baptism.

As did the Samaritans. Through the laying on of hands.

I think the charismatics got this one figured out pretty well. Receiving the manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift, or gifts is different than being sealed with the Holy Spirit in salvation.

 

[George Muller]

Acts records the conversion of the Ephesians and it records that they received the Holy Spirit following their baptism.

As did the Samaritans. Through the laying on of hands.

I think the charismatics got this one figured out pretty well. Receiving the manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift, or gifts is different than being sealed with the Holy Spirit in salvation.

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

[Butch5]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

I don't see literal baptism here because water doesn't clean anything. Repentance washes away the sins of the body, not water. And the Holy Spirit cleanses the guilt of a man, not water. Water is a symbol. It's a commanded symbol, but still, a symbol of faith and repentance.

To me the real questions are, "can a person who believes the gospel resist baptism, and if that's possible, what are the implications of doing that?" But, as I say, it may make for interesting discussion but it's a moot point to baptized believers.

That water itself doesn't do anything, it what God does when one goes into the water.

Or before, or after...as Cornelius, and some Samaritan and Ephesian believers know. They received the manifestation of the spiritual gifts apart from water baptism.

I'm not talking about the manifestation of the gifts. I believe that was an NT event. The OP is in regard to union with Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That water itself doesn't do anything, it what God does when one goes into the water.

Or before, or after...as Cornelius, and some Samaritan and Ephesian believers know. They received the manifestation of the spiritual gifts apart from water baptism.

I'm not talking about the manifestation of the gifts. I believe that was an NT event. The OP is in regard to union with Christ.

Some people are put in union with Christ before water baptism. Some after.

We are put into union with Christ via the seal of the Holy Spirit through believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Acts records the conversion of the Ephesians and it records that they received the Holy Spirit following their baptism.

As did the Samaritans. Through the laying on of hands.

I think the charismatics got this one figured out pretty well. Receiving the manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift, or gifts is different than being sealed with the Holy Spirit in salvation.

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

And that evidence, that knowing the Holy Spirit is in you is the emergence of godly character.

The traits of godly character are the sign posts along the way that verify that we're on the right track to salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

[Webb]

Acts records the conversion of the Ephesians and it records that they received the Holy Spirit following their baptism.

As did the Samaritans. Through the laying on of hands.

I think the charismatics got this one figured out pretty well. Receiving the manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift, or gifts is different than being sealed with the Holy Spirit in salvation.

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Acts 2:36-38 is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on how the "gift of the Holy Spirit" is received and when received.

 

[Butch5]

That water itself doesn't do anything, it what God does when one goes into the water.

Or before, or after...as Cornelius, and some Samaritan and Ephesian believers know. They received the manifestation of the spiritual gifts apart from water baptism.

I'm not talking about the manifestation of the gifts. I believe that was an NT event. The OP is in regard to union with Christ.

Some people are put in union with Christ before water baptism. Some after.

Can you supply some support for this?

We are put into union with Christ via the seal of the Holy Spirit through believing.

And that seal is water baptism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not talking about the manifestation of the gifts. I believe that was an NT event. The OP is in regard to union with Christ.

Some people are put in union with Christ before water baptism. Some after.

Can you supply some support for this?

Before baptism we have the experiences of Cornelius and the Samaritans, and arguably, the Ephesians to support that. And we have the countless testimonies of Christians who were sealed by the Spirit before their water baptism. I'm one of them.

And we all know a person can get water baptized and not be in Christ at all, until later when they really do believe and are then put into the body of Christ.

We are put into union with Christ via the seal of the Holy Spirit through believing.

And that seal is water baptism.

Water doesn't seal anything. The Bible says the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Acts records the conversion of the Ephesians and it records that they received the Holy Spirit following their baptism.

As did the Samaritans. Through the laying on of hands.

I think the charismatics got this one figured out pretty well. Receiving the manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift, or gifts is different than being sealed with the Holy Spirit in salvation.

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Acts 2:36-38 is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on how the "gift of the Holy Spirit" is received and when received.

But by that same inspiration we know there are other ways that the manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift, or gifts, is given.

The confusion comes in when the seal of the indwelling Holy Spirit is confused with the outward manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift. The latter is subsequent to being born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ.

I questioned the charismatic's understanding about a separate and different 'giving' of the Spirit after salvation, but after reading and considering the scriptures for myself I'm convinced they have it nailed pretty good. Receiving the Spirit in regard to salvation is one thing. Receiving the outward manifestation of the Spirit in regard to serving God in a spiritual gift is another. What I can't honestly reconcile in scripture is them being one and the same thing.

 

[Webb]

Paul said there were "diversities" of the Spirit "'but the same Spirit" and Jesus had the Spirit without measure. It is my understanding that some measures of the Spirit are no longer available to man today.

 

[George Muller]

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Acts 2:36-38 is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on how the "gift of the Holy Spirit" is received and when received.

But by that same inspiration we know there are other ways that the manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift, or gifts, is given.

The confusion comes in when the seal of the indwelling Holy Spirit is confused with the outward manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift. The latter is subsequent to being born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ.

I questioned the charismatic's understanding about a separate and different 'giving' of the Spirit after salvation, but after reading and considering the scriptures for myself I'm convinced they have it nailed pretty good. Receiving the Spirit in regard to salvation is one thing. Receiving the outward manifestation of the Spirit in regard to serving God in a spiritual gift is another. What I can't honestly reconcile in scripture is them being one and the same thing.

I agree in large part, and its pretty clear the "charismatics" dont really care if some groups of Christians doubt the need for these gifts. My point was and is, that the confidence we have in our union with Christ is based upon "KNOWING" the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. With or without gifts the standard is "know ye not that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you'

 

[Butch5]

Before baptism we have the experiences of Cornelius and the Samaritans, and arguably, the Ephesians to support that. And we have the countless testimonies of Christians who were sealed by the Spirit before their water baptism. I'm one of them.

And we all know a person can get water baptized and not be in Christ at all, until later when they really do believe and are then put into the body of Christ.

What evidence is there that a union took place before baptism?

We are put into union with Christ via the seal of the Holy Spirit through believing.

And that seal is water baptism.

Water doesn't seal anything. The Bible says the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation.

And the Holy Spirit is received upon baptism.

 

[George Muller]

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

 

[Butch5]

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Is that union with Christ? Peter equates this with what happened at Pentecost, is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts?

 

[George Muller]

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Is that union with Christ? Peter equates this with what happened at Pentecost, is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts?

Well yes of course it is!
1Jo 4:13that Hereby know we we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

 

[Webb]

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Is that union with Christ? Peter equates this with what happened at Pentecost, is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts?

Well yes of course it is!
1Jo 4:13that Hereby know we we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Elijah674]

Introduction:

If you were to go into a Church service at many locations around the world, you'd observe that the invitation for sinners to come into the kingdom and come unto union with Christ looks a bit like this:

"Now with no one looking around, if anyone is far off and needs salvation, or if you have been wandering around and want to come home to Jesus, again with no eyes looking around.. raise your hand." Hands raise around the room. "I see that hand, and that one.. The sinners prayer is then recited, and at the end of the prayer the Pastor will likely said, now if you raised your hand and prayed that prayer, the Bible says you are now born again and are eternally saved.​

Personally, I have observed this kind of "altar call" across many modern Churches in America. The question is, is it Biblical?

What I find to be missing in most of these (not to mention what doesn't need to be there) is Baptism. If you look throughout Acts, every single time someone comes to Christ there is usually an immediate baptism that happens once someone affirms Christ as Lord.

Just how integral is Baptism to our union with Christ, to being born again?

Baptism and Union With Christ

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4(ESV)

The picture here is that Baptism represents our participation in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. That when we are submerged into the water, that represents the burial with Jesus, and that rising from that water is where we enter into newness of life.

The question is, is this just a symbolic representation of something that has already happened. Has the Christian already been united with Christ in this way prior to Baptism, or does this happen at Baptism?

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27(ESV)

This passage seems to point to the latter option, that as many or ὅσοι, the Greek word has this use elsewhere:

and implored him that they might only touch the fringe of his garment. And as many as touched it were made well. Matthew 14:36(ESV)

Only those who touched the garments were made well here, or rather as many as did touch it, were made well. This seems to then be true about baptism, as in both Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27 this relative pronoun ὅσοι seems to indicate that only those who are baptized have been united with Christ.

In Paul's mind how else is Baptism envisaged?

For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

The Exodus through the Red Sea is another picture of baptism, but rather instead of the Israelites leaving from the slavery of the Egyptians and Pharaoh. The Christians when they are united with Jesus are to leave slavery from sin and death, and walk in the newness of life.

Practical Example:

Many take this view to be "salvation by works" and this comes from I believe, an overly systematic theology rather than a narrative theology. We try to fit and and organize things into an ordo salutis, where salvation is logically ordered out but don't stop to ask whether making up such and order of salvation is helpful to understand Scriptures teaching.

The example I want to offer is marriage:

Marriage is a Covenant that we enter into out of love and commitment, the love and affection shared by the man and woman are surely real going into Marriage, but the union is not fully realized until that ceremony happens, and the two are made one.

Baptism, I believe is closely related to this, that though we believe before we are baptized and are justified by faith, the union with Christ is not fully realized until that ceremony, that sacrament of Baptism.

Conclusion:

Baptism, then should not be a secondary action, but closely related and cherished by the Christian as they know this was the moment when they had their new exodus. When they walked into the waters of baptism to leave the life of slavery to sin and death, and to live now to righteousness and newness of life in relationship with Jesus.

This isn't merely a "super spiritual" action either, we are to now therefore consider ourselves, and put our minds on the things are above.. where Christ is seated. Baptism, is however, the foundation of the new life lived but of course there much more to work out.

Protestants (as I myself am one) have historically diminished the role of Baptism, but does Scripture?

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

I find no fault with this. Baptism follows this process. (if it can--- thief on the cross example)
What can any person do otherwise than what they had been taught from the preacher? Surely it takes these two steps to be 'IN CHRIST'. Rom. 8:1 & Rom. 8:14 (this is the hang up!)

One is now accountable to grow into sanctification. OSAS is only the beginning of the process. But 'me' thinks that it is the first steps!;)

Now what follows on is a Rev. 18:4 REQUIREMENT!

--Elijah

 

[George Muller]

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Is that union with Christ? Peter equates this with what happened at Pentecost, is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts?

Well yes of course it is!
1Jo 4:13that Hereby know we we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

You didn't answer the question.

Yes I did. Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit that Peter was speaking of is different than that which John wrote or that it is a "different spirit" than that which saves today?

 

[Webb]

His question was: is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manisfestation of gifts?