When to obey/disobey gov't

[BigSodaExposer]

This is on topic and you have ripped and, in my opinion, rapped scripture without expounding on how you arrived where you are. Please expound further. In my heart and in my soul these two verses ripped out of their context do not even appear to disagree and it is well known by any that study under the leading of the Holy Spirit that there is no conflict in scripture. I give this, only as a point of truth, and it will not become a point of discussion, running down a rabbit trail but please tell us how you arrived here, with scripture, not opinions nor personal experience.

Can you answer the question? Show me where Jesus Christ as a man, said the time is coming when you will have to resist your government and belief in me will do nothing. Yes thats what the book of revelation is saying.

 

[th1b.taylor]

G5073 -
tetraploos
tet-rap-lo'-os
From G5064 and a derivative of the base of G4118; quadruple: - fourfold.
Quadruplets are four babies not 16 babies. Thank goodness, says a mom and dad when the doc says they are having quads.

Yes mam but the translaters disagree and some versions agree, all of that is, however irrelevant to the complete context of my comment. The reason for the comment is contained in the Quote before my answer. I was responding to the answer where he pointed out that if he stole one hundred, he, a Christian, owed one hundred and no, that is not true.

Now, if you please, let's remember always to refuse to extract a portion and try making it a central issue, resulting in the topic be lost and running down a briar filled rabbit trail, okay?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Can you answer the question? Show me where Jesus Christ as a man, said the time is coming when you will have to resist your government and belief in me will do nothing. Yes thats what the book of revelation is saying.

Now, t here you go trying to run me down a rabbit trail and I so hate briar thickets!

EDIT: I said you were out of context, does that not mean to you that you ask amiss?

 

[Deborah13]

Yes mam but the translaters disagree and some versions agree, all of that is, however irrelevant to the complete context of my comment. The reason for the comment is contained in the Quote before my answer. I was responding to the answer where he pointed out that if he stole one hundred, he, a Christian, owed one hundred and no, that is not true.

Now, if you please, let's remember always to refuse to extract a portion and try making it a central issue, resulting in the topic be lost and running down a briar filled rabbit trail, okay?

 

[john darling]

When discussing Scriptural references we must understand them and cease this stupidity the Revisionist is involved in doing

I don't think personal attacks will be helpful.

Now John, I read several posts up to the one I quoted, please support you position,

I did support my position based on an interpretation of the scriptural account of Jesus' meeeting with Zacc. This is what Jason said:

Jason:
in the account did jesus tell him to stop being a tax collector. how can a man repay the debts if he stole all his money and still work? he(zacheus quoted the torah to jesus on what a theif was to do. repay four fold. if you have no job that is kinda hard to do) I don't base positions on an argument of silence. its implied as jesus didn't tell him to stop being one. if it was a sin, jesus would have said that, and it wasn't.

But then again, the account does not say that Jesus didn't tell him to stop being a tax collector. The text also does not say how much money Zacc already had. Jason is presuming that zacc must continue working before he can repay his debts, even if it is fourfold.

Then he talks about not basing his position on an argument of silence but then goes on to do exactly that by suggesting that since Jesus didn't say the words, "zacc quit your job and follow me" then it is implied that Jesus was fine with Zacc continuing with his tax collecting job. He then reconfirms his position of an argument based on silence by further clarifying that if Jesus didn't say it's a sin, then it's not a sin.

This isn't applying scripture, it's speculating. And since Jesus DID say quite a lot about jobs, money, and materialism, I'd say Jason's speculating is based more on his personal view of the world rather than what Jesus did say about these topics.

:
Bill
If we applied the dumbed down, modern, revisionist "interpretation" of fourfold, I will owe the victim four hundred dollar but using the correct understanding and application folding the hundred, if we fold it once it is 200, if we fold it twice it is 400, if we fold it three times it is 800 but if we fold it four times it is 1600 dollars.

Deborah:
Bill, where in scripture do you get this definition of fourfold? Or where in the Hebrew or Greek languages do you get this definition of fourfold?

Excellent question, Deborah! I was also keen to hear the answer. Instead, we're told that Bill's mom, dad and grandfather are the source of this teaching which is confusing cause just a bit earlier Bill was riding me about breaking forum rules by posting no scripture to support my position (though I was responding to scripture already posted, but with a different interpretation so no, I wasn't breaking the rules).

Anyway, can you please quote the source for your interpretation of this fourfold teaching now, Bill? If you got it from your parents, where in scripture did they get it from?

However, my point was, that even IF Bill's interpretation is correct, the text doesn't say how much money Zacc had left over after giving half of it away or how much he owed. But, I believe it can be reasonably understood that he DID have enough left over to pay back his debts (whatever the calculation used to arrive at that figure), otherwise he would not have given half his wealth away. He would have paid his debts and then given away what was remaining. It sounds like Zacc performed his own calculations when making this decision and worked it out based on his own understanding of his own wealth.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I did answer the question and it is further confirmed by how the word was used when the translations were done. You are verbally swaggering, pridefully and you have a much better chance of fighting with Jason han you ever will with me. But as I said, you are intentionally adding what is not in the scriptures. K I have not looked at your age but from your preferred manor of communicating by extracting rom context and by adding what is not in scripture, I doubt I'll live long enough to render service to you, sad that! As the context of scripture runs there is absolutely no reason to assume he quit his job, his job was only disliked because of the tax Collectors custom of stealing from poor people.

As long as you are looking for a fight, Iĺl not entertain you but I pray God puts his hand on you.

 

[Primrose]

Governments do not always oppose the Word of God. Only they are now. It also depends on the time and the place.
In my place in the 1970s , the bible was in the education system but has now been taken out and taken out of school assemblys, as an example of change. There has been a promotion of political correctness which is man made ,and without the completeness of God now, in many systems, influenced by policy.

Yet there are examples where God's word is both respected and disrespected. The bible instructs society to support the poor, needy and fatherless.
Proverbs 22:22-23, Isaiah 1:17,
Deuteronomy 14:7-1, Proverbs 31:8-9, Malachi 3:5,
Luke 14:13
Sometimes this has been followed through and Some politician support the bible but many politicians don't at all.

There is political correctness as well, that persecutes God and promotes things without giving credit to God and takes everything out of His hands to exclude Him and falsely portray Him. This however is not in all things as He and the bible is respected in some places and forms.

 

[jasonc]

If you leave their premises and in no way are seen to be representing their company then they don't have anything to say about it, unless you agreed to that.
So that would mean covering a shirt that may have their logo or driving their vehicle.

hypothetically, any hoa can force YOU, not to witness and so forth, you agreed to live there. that can also include non gate commu nities as some of those do have hoa but aren't gated.

 

[jasonc]

if my counterargue means it that way:dont buy food, sales tax on that, gas the same. don't pay for any licenses issued by the government( fee is a type of tax!).

where does it say in the bible that JESUS said don't work? the romans taxed you when you used their roads! paul was a roman citizen and he also knew that.

exodus 20, jesus said I can worship any other god? that is why I mentioned a theocracy. we cant pick which godly value to follow. with the government there has to be some separation from it from the church. therefore by that logic. if I don't want to pay taxes, I will do so when its banning all faiths but MINE!

 

[john darling]

I did answer the question and it is further confirmed by how the word was used when the translations were done.

You were asked to provide scriptural support for your interpretation. You didn't.

As the context of scripture runs there is absolutely no reason to assume he quit his job, his job was only disliked because of the tax Collectors custom of stealing from poor people.

I don't see it as an issue of whether his job was liked or not. As for whether he quit is job or not, that does seem to be off topic, unless there is a law somewhere saying people can't quit their jobs, so I'm fine to address that issue on a different thread. I'm sure it will come up sometime.

Jason:
where does it say in the bible that JESUS said don't work? the romans taxed you when you used their roads! paul was a roman citizen and he also knew that.

I don't know which argument you are trying to answer as from what I can see, no one on this thread said we should not work.

we cant pick which godly value to follow.

Sure we can. People make choices all the time on which values they want to follow or not follow. Of course Jesus wants us to follow his values and in many cases commanded that we do so, but we still have the choice not to choose his way.

 

[jasonc]

You were asked to provide scriptural support for your interpretation. You didn't.


I don't see it as an issue of whether his job was liked or not. As for whether he quit is job or not, that does seem to be off topic, unless there is a law somewhere saying people can't quit their jobs, so I'm fine to address that issue on a different thread. I'm sure it will come up sometime.



I don't know which argument you are trying to answer as from what I can see, no one on this thread said we should not work.



Sure we can. People make choices all the time on which values they want to follow or not follow. Of course Jesus wants us to follow his values and in many cases commanded that we do so, but we still have the choice not to choose his way.

you said we shouldn't pay taxes, because the government wars, cops also kill. so how can you LAWFULLY work and not pay taxes? you buy legally, you will pay a tax, own or rent, ad valorem will be paid and cops are funded in county by ad valorem and in the city I work for by sales tax and in the form a gas tax. there is just more then one way to get taxes from a person. income tax is for the federal and can be for the state. I don't pay state income tax. we have a state sales tax of 6%. the county adds 1% to that.

 

[john darling]

you said we shouldn't pay taxes,

Nah, I never said what anyone should or shouldn't do. I brought up an example of disobeying government policy for the sake of conscience. I think you may be taking this too personally.

so how can you LAWFULLY work and not pay taxes?

It depends on how much money you make. Also, working for money isn't the only kind of work one can do. Working for love is the alternative Jesus promoted. (Matthew 6:24-34)

you buy legally, you will pay a tax,

Yeah, this is an area of taxation which is pretty difficult to get around.

 

[jasonc]

Nah, I never said what anyone should or shouldn't do. I brought up an example of disobeying government policy for the sake of conscience. I think you may be taking this too personally.



It depends on how much money you make. Also, working for money isn't the only kind of work one can do. Working for love is the alternative Jesus promoted. (Matthew 6:24-34)



Yeah, this is an area of taxation which is pretty difficult to get around.

uhm I work part time for my self. one will owe if one made a 1000 bucks in this manner. YOU pay by matching your fica taxes and medicare and federal taxes.
I know I owe last year and will owe again. my wife made 13k one year as self employed and owed 2grand for that year. so it should be said if you work for another and also don't have kids you might now owe. if you are self employed and don't have kids you will owe.
working for love is called charity. a charity that pays you do while they help others at no cost to them is still a job legally, they must be taxes.

 

[john darling]

working for love is called charity. a charity that pays you do while they help others at no cost to them is still a job legally, they must be taxes.

And the people all say, "we have no king but Caesar!".

 

[jasonc]

And the people all say, "we have no king but Caesar!".

working for love, uhm good so I should just work for love? im here sir to read your electric meter and water meter in the love of the Lord. well I can say that to them but uhm im not sure they would want to fork over extra money that they don't want to pay to me to read that meter when they already hate the utility I work for.

you can as it says, work for the lord in the bible wherever you work at. not that I don't need the reminder of whom really is my boss, I do.

 

[YosefHayim]

Romans 13 plainly speaks of obeying legitimate government, not a gang of cutthroat criminal thugs who loot our nation, kill the innocent in our name and force us into economic slavery
- David J Stewart
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in Government/romans_13.htm

​

Eph 6 is about the gov't behind the gov't.

 

[YosefHayim]

Learn about the Hegelian Dialect:
Left vs right
Democrat vs republican
Satan vs Lucifer
Darkness vs. The false light. 2 Cor 11:14

Heads and tails are on the same coin.