WHERE DO CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ORIGINATE? BAPTISM

[GodsGrace]

All Christians believe they must be baptized as per Jesus' instructions in
Matthew 28:19. NLT
19Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.


So, I suppose the question becomes: Why do some churches baptize infants?
A few denominations baptize infants...I will only be speaking as to why the Catholic Church continues this practice since I don't know why the others do.

Branches of Christianity that practice infant baptism include Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and among Protestants, several denominations: Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and other Reformed denominations, Methodists, Nazarenes, Moravians, and United Protestants.

source: https://www.google.com/search?q=whi...30j0i390l3.5744j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Beginning in NT times, infants in families were baptized.
Acts 16:32-33
The gospel was preached to everyone in the household of the Jailer.
This sounds like it's speaking of adults since small children would likely not understand the gospel the first time around.
Then we read that the Jailor's entire household was baptized. We can't be sure if there were infants present.

However, we know that infants were baptized from Apostolic times. We read about infant baptism from the Early Church Fathers and even from the Apostolic Fathers.

Infants were baptized so that they could receive this blessing from God, so that they could become members of the Christian community. It must be remembered that infants are baptized even today with the understanding that their parents will raise them in a Christian manner with Christian morals and teachings. Although this is not done today, it certainly was back in the early days of Christianity when persons were willing to give up their lives for being a Christian.

So baptizing of infants was certainly believed to be a Godly practice from the beginning of Christianity.

...through Him are born again to God-infants, children, boys, youth and old men.
Irenaeus 180AD

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them”
Hippolytus 215AD

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit”
Origen 248AD


...should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another”
Cyprian of Carthage 253AD

 

[JLB]

All Christians believe they must be baptized as per Jesus' instructions in
Matthew 28:19. NLT
19Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.


So, I suppose the question becomes: Why do some churches baptize infants?
A few denominations baptize infants...I will only be speaking as to why the Catholic Church continues this practice since I don't know why the others do.

Branches of Christianity that practice infant baptism include Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and among Protestants, several denominations: Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and other Reformed denominations, Methodists, Nazarenes, Moravians, and United Protestants.

source: https://www.google.com/search?q=whi...30j0i390l3.5744j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Beginning in NT times, infants in families were baptized.
Acts 16:32-33
The gospel was preached to everyone in the household of the Jailer.
This sounds like it's speaking of adults since small children would likely not understand the gospel the first time around.
Then we read that the Jailor's entire household was baptized. We can't be sure if there were infants present.

However, we know that infants were baptized from Apostolic times. We read about infant baptism from the Early Church Fathers and even from the Apostolic Fathers.

Infants were baptized so that they could receive this blessing from God, so that they could become members of the Christian community. It must be remembered that infants are baptized even today with the understanding that their parents will raise them in a Christian manner with Christian morals and teachings. Although this is not done today, it certainly was back in the early days of Christianity when persons were willing to give up their lives for being a Christian.

So baptizing of infants was certainly believed to be a Godly practice from the beginning of Christianity.

...through Him are born again to God-infants, children, boys, youth and old men.
Irenaeus 180AD

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them”
Hippolytus 215AD

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit”
Origen 248AD


...should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another”
Cyprian of Carthage 253AD

Thank you for taking the time to make this thread, and to do research from the early Church fathers.


From what I see in scripture, the admonition to be saved and then water baptized is for those who believe.


And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. Acts 16:30-34


Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:35-39


The scriptures teach that water baptism is for those who already believe and therefore are already saved.

Water baptism does not bring about salvation, but is for someone has believed and therefore is saved; born again, regenerated.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for taking the time to make this thread, and to do research from the early Church fathers.


From what I see in scripture, the admonition to be saved and then water baptized is for those who believe.


And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. Acts 16:30-34


Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:35-39


The scriptures teach that water baptism is for those who already believe and therefore are already saved.

Water baptism does not bring about salvation, but is for someone has believed and therefore is saved; born again, regenerated.

JLB

The CC does not believe that a person is saved because he has been baptized.
That would be universalism since all Catholics are baptized, as are mostly all Protestants.

Actually, the CC has considered baptizing only adults that are believers but they get too much pushback.

I don't actually see anything wrong with baptizing an infant because it is primarily done to welcome that infant into the Christian community. Of course, these days, there hardly is a Christian community as there was back in the time of the Apostolic and Early church fathers.

So this thread is to explain where the practices originate.
Certainly there will be some disagreement.
I also agree that baptism should be only for believers.
But I can also accept the idea of baptizing an infant, as long as teaching that this will save the infant does not follow.

 

[JLB]

I don't actually see anything wrong with baptizing an infant because it is primarily done to welcome that infant into the Christian community.

The way we belong to the Christian community is by believing.

Water has nothing to do with salvation. Believing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ is how we are saved, then after that we are baptized in water.

Also there is the baptism with the Spirit.

 

[Walpole]

The way we belong to the Christian community is by believing.

Sometimes I wonder if we read the same Scriptures...

Baptism is how we become and belong to the Christian community ---> 1 Cor 12:12-13 ---> "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Water has nothing to do with salvation. Believing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ is how we are saved, then after that we are baptized in water.

Also there is the baptism with the Spirit.

Water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new. The waters of the deluge washed the sinners away, and through it something new was created. Thus St. Peter tells us Noah and the other seven were saved through water.

Baptism is the normative means by which God brings people to newness of life (Romans 6:4). It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). This belief is based on all the baptism texts of Scripture, which say baptism "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and yes, "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).

1 Peter 3:21 ---> "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"


Christianity 101

 

[JLB]

Water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new.

Represents mean its not literal.

 

[hawkman]

Sometimes I wonder if we read the same Scriptures...

Baptism is how we become and belong to the Christian community ---> 1 Cor 12:12-13 ---> "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new. The waters of the deluge washed the sinners away, and through it something new was created. Thus St. Peter tells us Noah and the other seven were saved through water.

Baptism is the normative means by which God brings people to newness of life (Romans 6:4). It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). This belief is based on all the baptism texts of Scripture, which say baptism "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and yes, "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).

1 Peter 3:21 ---> "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"


Christianity 101

One has to be careful where they place their faith . I place my faith in Jesus Christ not water .
1Cor12 is all about the Baptism of The Holy Spirit and the gifts of The Holy Spirit, not about water Baptism .

1 Corinthians 12​

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

 

[hawkman]

I don't actually see anything wrong with baptizing an infant because it is primarily done to welcome that infant into the Christian community. Of course, these days, there hardly is a Christian community as there was back in the time of the Apostolic and Early church fathers.

I have seen baby dedications where the parents bring the child before the congregation and the pastor will anoint the baby with oil . https://www.learnreligions.com/what-is-baby-dedication-700149

 

[Hopeful]

All Christians believe they must be baptized as per Jesus' instructions in
Matthew 28:19. NLT
19Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.


So, I suppose the question becomes: Why do some churches baptize infants?
A few denominations baptize infants...I will only be speaking as to why the Catholic Church continues this practice since I don't know why the others do.

Branches of Christianity that practice infant baptism include Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and among Protestants, several denominations: Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and other Reformed denominations, Methodists, Nazarenes, Moravians, and United Protestants.

source: https://www.google.com/search?q=whi...30j0i390l3.5744j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Beginning in NT times, infants in families were baptized.
Acts 16:32-33
The gospel was preached to everyone in the household of the Jailer.
This sounds like it's speaking of adults since small children would likely not understand the gospel the first time around.
Then we read that the Jailor's entire household was baptized. We can't be sure if there were infants present.

However, we know that infants were baptized from Apostolic times. We read about infant baptism from the Early Church Fathers and even from the Apostolic Fathers.

Infants were baptized so that they could receive this blessing from God, so that they could become members of the Christian community. It must be remembered that infants are baptized even today with the understanding that their parents will raise them in a Christian manner with Christian morals and teachings. Although this is not done today, it certainly was back in the early days of Christianity when persons were willing to give up their lives for being a Christian.

So baptizing of infants was certainly believed to be a Godly practice from the beginning of Christianity.

...through Him are born again to God-infants, children, boys, youth and old men.
Irenaeus 180AD

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them”
Hippolytus 215AD

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit”
Origen 248AD


...should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another”
Cyprian of Carthage 253AD

Follow the money.

 

[Hopeful]

Thank you for taking the time to make this thread, and to do research from the early Church fathers.


From what I see in scripture, the admonition to be saved and then water baptized is for those who believe.


And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. Acts 16:30-34


Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:35-39


The scriptures teach that water baptism is for those who already believe and therefore are already saved.

Water baptism does not bring about salvation, but is for someone has believed and therefore is saved; born again, regenerated.

The devils believe, and are not saved.
A day of judgement is coming, only thereafter we may be able to say "I am saved!".

 

[GodsGrace]

The way we belong to the Christian community is by believing.

Water has nothing to do with salvation. Believing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ is how we are saved, then after that we are baptized in water.

Also there is the baptism with the Spirit.

I agree totally.

 

[JLB]

The devils believe, and are not saved.
A day of judgement is coming, only thereafter we may be able to say "I am saved!".

That's why the biblical word believe carries the meaning of obey.

 

[Walpole]

Represents mean its not literal.

Do you believe the deluge was not literal and never really happened?


The words of Peter refute any concept that water is symbolic. Here again are his words...

"...to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 3:20-21, NIV, which you quoted)

The Apostle links the deluge to baptism. The water saved Noah and his family and the waters of baptism now saves you. We know he means actual water because he says baptism is not for the removal of dirt from one's body, but is instead salvific. If the baptism he was speaking about was symbolic, that is one sans water, it would not even be capable of removing dirt from the body.

As St. Peter says, baptism is the anti-type of the waters of the deluge. The waters of baptism now cleanse not our flesh, but our sin. (cf. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5) Hence its effect is not on our flesh (i.e. removal of dirt), but rather on our interior. Through our baptism, we are made anew. (cf. John 3:5, Romans 6:4)

In Christianity, matter matters and water is literal water.

 

[Hopeful]

That's why the biblical word believe carries the meaning of obey.

Though I agree with that idea, few others do,
Do you have a scripture for that idea?
The only scripture I could find with the words believe and obey in it was Rom 10:6..."But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

(That should be enough to get the "anti-legalists" interested).
(And the "faith alone" folks too!)

 

[Mungo]

Though I agree with that idea, few others do,
Do you have a scripture for that idea?
The only scripture I could find with the words believe and obey in it was Rom 10:6..."But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

(That should be enough to get the "anti-legalists" interested).
(And the "faith alone" folks too!)

There is a complicated argument connected with pistou and apeitheo.
And John 3:36 is translated:
KJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
RSV He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

 

[Mungo]

The way we belong to the Christian community is by believing.

Water has nothing to do with salvation. Believing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ is how we are saved, then after that we are baptized in water.

I disagree.
To be precise we are not saved by believing; we are not saved by water.
We are saved by God.
Since God does not save everyone the issue is:- on what basis does God save some and not others?

The answer is given by Jesus himself in Mk 16:16.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved"

Jesus gave us two condition that are (normally) necessary to be fulfilled before he saves us - faith and baptism.

That faith does not necessarily have to be the faith of the person being baptised. In the case of infants the faith of the parents is sufficient.

Let me give a personal analogy.
About 3½ years ago I had major surgery for cancer. It involved a team of people and took most of a day. Without it I would probably have died. You could say that team, particularly the lead surgeon, saved me.

There were two things necessary for me to be saved:
1. I had to have faith in them that they could do what they planned.
2. I had to turn up at the hospital on the due day.

Regarding 2. - sitting at home believing they could save me would have gained me nothing.

If I had been an infant it was not necessary for me personally to believe they could operate safely. My parents belief would have been enough.

 

[JLB]

Though I agree with that idea, few others do,
Do you have a scripture for that idea?
The only scripture I could find with the words believe and obey in it was Rom 10:6..."But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

(That should be enough to get the "anti-legalists" interested).
(And the "faith alone" folks too!)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Sometimes I wonder if we read the same Scriptures...

Baptism is how we become and belong to the Christian community ---> 1 Cor 12:12-13 ---> "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Must disagree.
IF baptism is how we become a member of the Christian community, FOLLOWED by your verse,
then every single Catholic is saved.

If this is not so, please explain why.

Water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new. The waters of the deluge washed the sinners away, and through it something new was created. Thus St. Peter tells us Noah and the other seven were saved through water.

Again, this is also true only if the baptized is already a believer.
I understand why infants were baptized at the beginnings of the church.
I don't believe this functions well anymore.
Because a baby has been baptized does not mean that he will grow up to either be a believer,
or a good person. I can attest to this personally.
I believe infant baptism gives a false sense of security -

Baptism is the normative means by which God brings people to newness of life (Romans 6:4). It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). This belief is based on all the baptism texts of Scripture, which say baptism "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and yes, "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).

1 Peter 3:21 ---> "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"


Christianity 101

Same reply as last.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have seen baby dedications where the parents bring the child before the congregation and the pastor will anoint the baby with oil . https://www.learnreligions.com/what-is-baby-dedication-700149

I attended a denomination that dedicated babies.
This is totally different as I'm sure you know.

The parents dedicate the baby to God, for a blessing, for strength in the family,
they "give" the baby to God to use for a Godly purpose.

In the CC babies are baptized.
It was not really necessary in the beginnings, but it became necessary after The 6th century when
a Catholic Doctor that was very respected (Augustine) decided that babies were not only born with original sin,
which was always taught, but that they were IMPUGNED with the sin of Adam.
So, if they died, they would not be eligible for heaven.
A teaching which is not accepted by anyone but the reformed,
not even accepted by the very CC from whence the teaching came.
Augustine was Catholic.
And he was wrong according to scripture that states that a son cannot be responsible for the sin of the father.

 

[GodsGrace]

Follow the money.

Doesn't apply at all.