Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
where does it say you cannot go to heaven and come back?
- Thread starter holy999
- Start date
Where does it say that one can go to heaven without dying?
holy999
Member
you are suppouse to tell me that!
Where does it say that?I don't think it does say we "can't come back".
But why would we want to?
As the day of judgement will be the last day anyway, there will be a new earth to comeback to if your name is actually found in the book of life and you end up in heaven.
Concentrate on getting there, and don't worry about coming back.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Even if we could ascend up to the third heaven where God sits on His throne who would want to leave His presence.
Mungo
Member
We might if God sent us.
Well since no one has ever ascended up to heaven it doesn't matter. What will matter is that we need to be prepared to be caught up to Christ when He returns on the last day, Matthew 24:29-31, 36-39; 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21.
Mungo
Member
What about all the people in heaven right now?
Again.........John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Why can't people believe what Jesus said. He could have not been any clearer.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
There are no people in heaven. All who have ever died or will die before the return of Christ are laying in their graves until Christ returns and judgement is rendered. Nowhere in scripture does it say anyone has even been raised from the grave and ascended up to heaven.Last edited:
The physical body is sleeping in the grave.
Paul indicates the we immediately go to heaven.
The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that made us a living soul that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body dies and returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.
electedbyhim I forgot to address what Paul said about being absent from the body to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
vs. 1 is speaking about the tabernacle of God that is within us as we are the Temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, and when we physically die we will have eternal life with Him in the New Jerusalem
vs. 2 we desire to be in our new home, the New Jerusalem, that will be ushered down from heaven at the end of days, Rev 21
vs. 3 we are clothed in Gods righteousness as we will not be found naked, Isaiah 61:10
vs. 4 We are the Temple of God, but yet we do have burdens as we still live in this fleshly body waiting for immortality when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
vs. 5 basic as we have Gods Spirit dwelling in us as we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Galatians 5:16, 17
vs. 6 we are confident knowing that if we are walking in the flesh we are absent from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Galatians 5:17
vs. 7 we walk by faith, which is Christ Jesus as we seek those things from above and not the things of this world, Colossians 3:1-4
vs. 8 we are confident if we are walking in the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) we are no longer following the lust of the flesh, 1 John 2:16
Absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.
Thank you for your opinions.electedbyhim I forgot to address what Paul said about being absent from the body to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
vs. 1 is speaking about the tabernacle of God that is within us as we are the Temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, and when we physically die we will have eternal life with Him in the New Jerusalem
vs. 2 we desire to be in our new home, the New Jerusalem, that will be ushered down from heaven at the end of days, Rev 21
vs. 3 we are clothed in Gods righteousness as we will not be found naked, Isaiah 61:10
vs. 4 We are the Temple of God, but yet we do have burdens as we still live in this fleshly body waiting for immortality when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
vs. 5 basic as we have Gods Spirit dwelling in us as we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Galatians 5:16, 17
vs. 6 we are confident knowing that if we are walking in the flesh we are absent from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Galatians 5:17
vs. 7 we walk by faith, which is Christ Jesus as we seek those things from above and not the things of this world, Colossians 3:1-4
vs. 8 we are confident if we are walking in the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) we are no longer following the lust of the flesh, 1 John 2:16
Absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.
I do not agree.Dorothy Mae
Member
Paul said he was in the third heaven. He wasn’t dead yet.
Mungo
Member
When Jesus spoke those words no-one had entered heaven because heaven was closed to mankind (symbolised by the angel with the sword in Gen 3:24). Heaven was opened when Jesus died on the cross, symbolised by the splitting of the temple veil - Mt 27:51.
The Jews envisioned Sheol or Hades as in two parts - one for the unrighteous (what we now call hell) and one for the righteous, called the bosom of Abraham - see Jesus' story in Lk 16:19-31.
When Jesus, after his death, preached to the spirits in prison (1Pet 3:19) it was to take them to heaven since it was now opened.
In his vision John of an open door in heaven (Rev 4:1), John sees many people in heaven - 24 elders (Rev 4:4), souls under the altar (Rev 6:9), a great multitude (Rev 7:9).
Hebrews 11 describes the faith of the heroes of old and then says in chapter 12:1 that they are witnessing us. That can only be from heaven.
So there are many people in heaven right now.
It does not say that he 2as physically in heaven.
Like Isaiah he had a vision of heaven.Dorothy Mae
Member
That’s not what he said. He said he was there. He says he wasn’t sure if in order out of the body. That’s NOT a vision.
Genesis 3:24 is about when God sent Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden He placed Cherubims at the east gate so no one could ever enter in and eat from the tree of life. There were not other people at that particular time, only Adam and Eve.
These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.
Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.
Jesus never went down to hell (lower parts of the earth/grave) to preach as scripture says He went to preach to the spirits in prison. When Jesus laid in the tomb for three days his body was dead, but His spirit was very much alive. In 1 Peter 3:19 it says Jesus being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison. The spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to are those angels that are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Scripture does not say what Jesus preached to them, but some speculate that He was proclaiming to these fallen angels that Satan had no victory over His death. These angels are separate from the third Satan gathered with him as these angels bound in chains kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:5-7.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
These angels that have been bound and chained in prison until the day of judgement, Jesus was making show of them openly, triumphing over them in it, Colossians 2:13-15. This means that those who come to Jesus their sin is blotted out having spoiled these angels (principalities and power) who caused men to sin and that they too will be judged and cast into the lake of fire reserved for Satan and his angels.
John was never literally taken up to heaven, but only caught up in the Spirit as all that John wrote were visions/revelations he received from the angels Christ sent to him while on the isle of Patmos.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
says nothing about anyone in Hebrews 11 that are witnessing to us from heaven.
Mungo
Member
As I said it symbolises that the gates are heaven are sgut to mankind
As I said there were two places - what we call hell for the unrighteous and the "bosom of Abraham" for the righteous awaiting entry into heaven.
He went to the place where the righteous were imprisoned awaiting entry into heaven.
You are trying to stitch together two parts of scripture that have nothing to do with each other.
I didn't say he went to heaven. But he described what was going on in heaven
And you are ignoring all the people that John saw in heaven
Where do you think the righteous people of old were witnessing us from?