where does it say you cannot go to heaven and come back?

[for_his_glory]

There are three parts that makes up a person. Spirit, soul and body.

The 3 Parts of Man—Spirit, Soul, and Body

"Have you ever wondered how man is made? For example, what about the soul, or the spirit? God made us in a very special way so that we could fulfill His..."

blog.biblesforamerica.org

“This word strongly indicates that man is of three parts: spirit, soul, and body. The spirit as our inmost part is the inner organ, possessing God-consciousness, that we may contact God (John 4:24; Rom. 1:9).”

The human spirit is the deepest part of a person. By means of this innermost part, we can contact God in the spiritual realm. No other creature was created by God with this third part.

Now let’s read the next section of the note, which explains our soul:

“The soul is our very self (cf. Matt. 16:26; Luke 9:25), a medium between our spirit and our body, possessing self-consciousness, that we may have our personality.”

Our soul perceives things in the psychological realm. In fact, in Greek—the original language of the New Testament—the word for soul is psuche, which is also the root word of psychology.

Our soul is our personality, who we are. With our soul we think, reason, consider, remember, and wonder. We experience emotions like happiness, love, sorrow, anger, relief, and compassion. And we’re able to resolve, choose, and make decisions.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
​

Man can now reproduce his kind including the spirit. There’s no hint even Adam’s spirit returned to God; It’s not said there.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.​

Doesn’t say that. I know that’s your position but it doesn’t say that and Jesus described the rich man’s soul being in hell, not with God.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
​

To the dust, not to God. It particularly doesn’t say that.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
​

Written by a man who wrote that all life is useless and worshipped demons. Not a single prophet wrote the awful despairing things Solomon wrote, a man writing with no joy of any kind whatsoever.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.
​

Yes you keep repeating this but it doesn’t make it so. No prophet of God even hinted at this and Jesus plainly spoke of spirits in hell terribly thirsty. He even went down to them and preached to them. They weren’t “with God.”

 

[for_his_glory]

Man can now reproduce his kind including the spirit. There’s no hint even Adam’s spirit returned to God; It’s not said there.

Doesn’t say that. I know that’s your position but it doesn’t say that and Jesus described the rich man’s soul being in hell, not with God.

To the dust, not to God. It particularly doesn’t say that.

Written by a man who wrote that all life is useless and worshipped demons. Not a single prophet wrote the awful despairing things Solomon wrote, a man writing with no joy of any kind whatsoever.

Yes you keep repeating this but it doesn’t make it so. No prophet of God even hinted at this and Jesus plainly spoke of spirits in hell terribly thirsty. He even went down to them and preached to them. They weren’t “with God.”

You never gave me any scriptures to look up about Jesus speaking to any spirits in hell terribly thirsty so will move past that since you can not provide the scripture.

I gave both scriptures, Genesis 3:19 and Ecc 12:7 about the physical body returning back to the dust of the ground when we die, and about the spirit returning back to God. If you want to ignore what is written in Ecc 12:7 that is your choice, but it clearly reads and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I never made any mention of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You never gave me any scriptures to look up about Jesus speaking to any spirits in hell terribly thirsty so will move past that since you can not provide the scripture.

I assumed you knew the story of the rich man in hell. My error. Luke 16

I gave both scriptures, Genesis 3:19 and Ecc 12:7 about the physical body returning back to the dust of the ground when we die, and about the spirit returning back to God.

Genesis says nothing of the kind regarding the spirit. You keep repeating this over and over and over. Please stop. The whole world knows dead bodies decay.

There is one verse in the whole of the Bible written by a man whose other verses in the chapter we know aren’t true. Life is not vanity. Jesus came to give us fullness in life, the opposite of vanity. Btw, Solomon said life for everyone is vain, believers too. No exceptions mentioned in that chapter.

If you want to ignore what is written in Ecc 12:7 that is your choice, but it clearly reads and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Except Jesus was in hell with spirits suffering. He went and preached to them. If you want to ignore what Jesus says, that’s your choice. Is your life in vain? Solomon says it is.

I never made any mention of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

No, I did. It describes the experience of spirits after death.

 

[Mungo]

I gave both scriptures, Genesis 3:19 and Ecc 12:7 about the physical body returning back to the dust of the ground when we die, and about the spirit returning back to God. If you want to ignore what is written in Ecc 12:7 that is your choice, but it clearly reads and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Although Ecc 12:7 indicates that the spirit/soul goes to God when a we die that doesn't mean it stays there.
There is an immediate judgement (not the general judgement at the end of time) and (since Jesus' death) the spirit/soul stays in heaven or is sent to hell.

The Jews believed the spirit/soul went to Hades but that Hades was in two parts - one for the unrighteous and one for the righteous. That there is an immediate judgment is shown in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
The rich man went to the abode of the unrighteous and Lazarus to "Abrahm's bosom" (the abode of the righteous).

 

[for_his_glory]

I assumed you knew the story of the rich man in hell. My error. Luke 16

Yes I do, but wanted to know we were talking about the same thing.

That parable is about being ready to be with Christ before you die as in death there are no second chances.
Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days. Once they physically die reject God and His Son Christ Jesus there is no second chances or to try and send ones to tell your family about Jesus

Genesis says nothing of the kind regarding the spirit. You keep repeating this over and over and over. Please stop. The whole world knows dead bodies decay.

Genesis says we return to the dust of the ground as Ecc says and we return back to the dust of the ground, founded in Genesis, and continues in Ecc to say the spirit returns back to God who gave it. I really can not see hpw you can be confused unless it's the way I am saying this.

Except Jesus was in hell with spirits suffering. He went and preached to them.

Jesus never went down to hell (lower parts of the earth/grave) to preach as scripture says He went to preach to the spirits in prison. When Jesus laid in the tomb for three days his body was dead, but His spirit was very much alive. In 1 Peter 3:19 it says Jesus being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison. The spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to are those angels that are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Scripture does not say what Jesus preached to them, but some speculate that He was proclaiming to these fallen angels that Satan had no victory over His death. These angels are separate from the third Satan gathered with him as these angels bound in chains kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:5-7.

 

[for_his_glory]

Although Ecc 12:7 indicates that the spirit/soul goes to God when a we die that doesn't mean it stays there.

never said it did, but it will never return back to a physical body.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes I do, but wanted to know we were talking about the same thing.

That parable is about being ready to be with Christ before you die as in death there are no second chances.
Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29.

That verse does not support that statement entirely.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The righteous and unrighteous dead, by that account, refers to the bodies because that is what is resurrected. And this verse is followed by a very unpopular one, they are judged not whether they "accepted Jesus" or not but by what they did. I did not write that, John the Apostle did.

The account of Lazarus and the rich man that Jesus told is not a parable. Jesus does not name names in a parable. It is an account of what he witnessed. The whole of the story is nothing like a parable and the point is there are one of two eternal futures for man and each has a choice. The rich man's mistake was to enjoy the pleasures of this life giving no thought to eternity. Lazarus had only eternity to look forward to having no pleasures in this life to enjoy.

Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days. Once they physically die reject God and His Son Christ Jesus there is no second chances or to try and send ones to tell your family about Jesus

The term "accept Him as Lord and savior" is not a New Testament concept. The New Testament actually teaches repent and believe. In the end it is surrender to Him and following his teachings as the apostles did.

Genesis says we return to the dust of the ground as Ecc says and we return back to the dust of the ground, founded in Genesis,

Can you please stop repeating this. The whole world knows the body decays. We do not even need Genesis to tell us this. We bury the dead because they otherwise stink as they decay. Solomon wrote many things in that book that show he was a despondent man whose outlook on life was terrible because he worshipped demons. Not a single person who walked with God in the Bible had that outlook. If you accept that spirits return to God in direction opposition of the teaching of Jesus, then you must also believe that your life is vanity. That is even in the same chapter.

and continues in Ecc to say the spirit returns back to God who gave it. I really can not see hpw you can be confused unless it's the way I am saying this.

I read the whole of the book that Solomon wrote and recognize a man deeply depressed whose negative outlook on life did not reflect any teaching anyone else in the whole of the Bible gave. But again, it is to be understood as he literally worshipped demons as the urging of his wives (which he was forbidden to marry, btw.)

Jesus never went down to hell (lower parts of the earth/grave) to preach as scripture says He went to preach to the spirits in prison. When Jesus laid in the tomb for three days his body was dead, but His spirit was very much alive. In 1 Peter 3:19 it says Jesus being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison. The spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to are those angels that are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Scripture does not say what Jesus preached to them, but some speculate that He was proclaiming to these fallen angels that Satan had no victory over His death. These angels are separate from the third Satan gathered with him as these angels bound in chains kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:5-7.

For the sake of those reading, I will refute this. But first the verse you quote:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient,

Why would Jesus preach to the demons? That is just plain cruel. For what purpose? They already knew what they had done and were suffering for it. He did not speak much to demons when on earth either. He rebuked and silenced them. Why would he gloat over the matter? That is not typical of his behavior when the demons on earth knew who he was and was there to defeat them. They asked him not to do so before their time and he granted that. He is not cruel even to demons.

And there is this description of what he did there:

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

What captives in prison did he led? Not the evil spirits, but men certainly. All those who had lived before and had not heard the Gospel, he preached it to them. They had the chance to believe.

I think this view fits the pattern of God's behavior to his enemies. He is not cruel to them but He is just. Lazarus heard the gospel preached in the bosom of Abraham and was released, same as many others. That is my view, in any case.

 

[Mungo]

never said it did, but it will never return back to a physical body.

Angels came with the appearance of men, as did Moses and Elijah, not just disembodied spirits.

 

[for_his_glory]

That verse does not support that statement entirely.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The righteous and unrighteous dead, by that account, refers to the bodies because that is what is resurrected. And this verse is followed by a very unpopular one, they are judged not whether they "accepted Jesus" or not but by what they did. I did not write that, John the Apostle did.

The account of Lazarus and the rich man that Jesus told is not a parable. Jesus does not name names in a parable. It is an account of what he witnessed. The whole of the story is nothing like a parable and the point is there are one of two eternal futures for man and each has a choice. The rich man's mistake was to enjoy the pleasures of this life giving no thought to eternity. Lazarus had only eternity to look forward to having no pleasures in this life to enjoy.

The term "accept Him as Lord and savior" is not a New Testament concept. The New Testament actually teaches repent and believe. In the end it is surrender to Him and following his teachings as the apostles did.

Can you please stop repeating this. The whole world knows the body decays. We do not even need Genesis to tell us this. We bury the dead because they otherwise stink as they decay. Solomon wrote many things in that book that show he was a despondent man whose outlook on life was terrible because he worshipped demons. Not a single person who walked with God in the Bible had that outlook. If you accept that spirits return to God in direction opposition of the teaching of Jesus, then you must also believe that your life is vanity. That is even in the same chapter.

I read the whole of the book that Solomon wrote and recognize a man deeply depressed whose negative outlook on life did not reflect any teaching anyone else in the whole of the Bible gave. But again, it is to be understood as he literally worshipped demons as the urging of his wives (which he was forbidden to marry, btw.)

For the sake of those reading, I will refute this. But first the verse you quote:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient,

Why would Jesus preach to the demons? That is just plain cruel. For what purpose? They already knew what they had done and were suffering for it. He did not speak much to demons when on earth either. He rebuked and silenced them. Why would he gloat over the matter? That is not typical of his behavior when the demons on earth knew who he was and was there to defeat them. They asked him not to do so before their time and he granted that. He is not cruel even to demons.

And there is this description of what he did there:

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

What captives in prison did he led? Not the evil spirits, but men certainly. All those who had lived before and had not heard the Gospel, he preached it to them. They had the chance to believe.

I think this view fits the pattern of God's behavior to his enemies. He is not cruel to them but He is just. Lazarus heard the gospel preached in the bosom of Abraham and was released, same as many others. That is my view, in any case.

It makes no difference if you or anyone else wants to refute what I present in my understanding. These are my views, opinions and understandings just like everyone else who give their own. Each of us can only hope we are right in them. I gave what I believe and let it up to others to study the scriptures I give for themselves to draw their own conclusions. If you think we are going to be raised with the same bodies we died with then you have every right to believe that, but God is not going to knit back those bodies that have already turned to dust.

I done with this thread and everyone have a good day

 

[Mungo]

I done with this thread and everyone have a good day

Me too!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It makes no difference if you or anyone else wants to refute what I present in my understanding. These are my views, opinions and understandings just like everyone else who give their own. Each of us can only hope we are right in them. I gave what I believe and let it up to others to study the scriptures I give for themselves to draw their own conclusions.

No argument there. I have studied the scriptures and arrived at an understanding although I don’t say that it makes no difference what others say on the matter. I consider their view and study the scriptures to see if these things be so,

If you think we are going to be raised with the same bodies we died with then you have every right to believe that, but God is not going to knit back those bodies that have already turned to dust.

So do you believe bodies will be resurrected but no spirit goes to dwell in them? Or do you think there is no resurrection of those bodies in the grave?

I done with this thread and everyone have a good day

God speed you on your way! Others can consider answers to my questions.