where does it say you cannot go to heaven and come back?
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Why do we need to know this?
Extraordinary obedience and relationship with God generates extraordinary privileges. He wasn’t weak in body when he died but in full strength. Extraordinary!
Talking to Jesus makes a difference.
No, the point is they talked with Jesus about his up and coming crucifixion. They weren’t passing the time of day.
The spirit might return to God for judgement and then acceptance or rejection is the judgement, but we are not joined with Him. There are many whose spirits have become so repugnant He won’t want them “returning to Him.”
God is in heaven.
So if the soul goes back to God then the soul is in heaven. Right?
Well you said he didn't die.
So what?
And what difference does that make?
He still appeared on earth.
spirit/breath/soul returns back to God and reserved unto the final judgement, John 5:28-29.
spirit/breath and soul are all connected. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Where do those two verses say the spirit returns to God? Jesus talked about spirits in Hades, not returning to God at all.
Read the rest of what he wrote… do you accept that “all is vanity,” for example?
Did Jesus teach that which sounded like Solomon in Ecc.?
He didn’t. So?
Talking to Jesus about the coming crucifixion is pretty hefty.
The point is that if Elijah was taken up to heaven then he had to come down from heaven to talk with Jesus.
Therefore it is possible for someone from heaven to come back to earth, albeit temporarily.
You are just avoiding the issue.
If Moses had died and his soul was in the "Abraham's bosom" it was possible for him to come back to earth, albeit temporarily.
Consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31)
The rich man is in hell and Lazarus is in "Abraham's bosom", (see my post #16 if you don't understand what I am referring to) neither of them are on earth.
The rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to earth to warn his five brothers. Abraham doesn't say that is not possible, only that it would be pointless as the wouldn't listen.
That shows that it possible for a dead person to be sent from one spiritual realm to earth.
I was only showing what the final judgement will be by using John 5:28-29 when Christ returns and calls everyone from their grave.
You will have to give me the scripture that you are talking about Jesus talking about spirits in Hades.
Everything in this life is meaningless (vanity) and those who have rejected God and have returned to the dust of the ground will perish as their their judgement is damnation in the resurrection, but those who have died that are God's own as their spirit has also returned back to God for final judgement will be raised to eternal life. So when this physical body dies it returns back to the dust of the ground (grave) and the spirit returns back to God who gave it.
I apologize for the length, but it details some of these Prophets that some say are in heaven.
Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.
Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.
Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)
Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.
Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.
Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.
When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.
Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.
Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)
Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.
Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.
Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.
When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.
Ok, but you mentioned spirits going back to God. I’m pretty sure God doesn’t want some same as we wouldn’t some as house guests.
Peter wrote about him preaching to souls in hell but the stronger case is Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham.
I guess you can believe that. The atheists will like that notion. When they die they go to God where He is and not the other place in your view, at least until Judgement.
I believe that when the body dies and the spirit leaves it and enters the spiritual world and either demons or angels come and escort that soul/spirit to where it has chosen to go based on choices it made in life. Either it has chosen the Lord (with all the help the Holy Spirit gives) or it has chosen to live for self and piled on various evil deeds that accompany that choice.
I can give scriptures for the above but I prefer not to make long posts.
To talk to Jesus, seems like it. But since Jesus isn’t walking the earth, not any more.
No, you are missing the reason and trying to make it an ordinary happening.
Except no dead person has come back to tell others what hell is like.
Is there a point to this discussion?
My dear sister,
Those scriptures do not describe your position as you haven taken it. One has to add to the scripture to arrive at those conclusions.
For example, “Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away” doesn’t say, but not to the third Heaven. We don’t know where he went and neither did they.
The transfiguration was an experience that we cannot know in detail. Visions communicate information. It is most oft not events that were happening in space and time. They are most often symbolic of real events. This was Moses and Elijah TALKING to Jesus about the up and coming events. This wasn’t symbolic as that would bring Jesus no comfort. It wasn’t for the viewers benefit but Jesus’ obviously. The details of how Moses and Elijah got there isn’t known but it’s wiser to just believe these words as written and not remove some or add some to suit our chosen theology.
So I believe Moses and Elijah stood there in a body talking to Jesus about the crucifixion to help him. I don’t add to it nor detract from it. I don’t know where Elijah is but I’m sure it’s really great. I don’t know the details of the physics or metaphysics of these men but I don’t have to know this. If I were to ask Jesus about it, he’d say, “what is that to you? You follow me.”
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It established the principle.
But perhaps you don't believe in principles
No I'm not
I wasn't arguing about coming back from hell.
Not if you keep ignoring the points I make and set up straw men.
Where does it say people die and go there to begin with? To come back one must go there first.
Note: When Jesus was here: John 3:13
After Jesus rose again (which makes it the same as this age yet): Acts 2:29-34 (emphasis on the last verse)
But the hope is the resurrection (which did not happen yet until the Second Coming): I Corinthians 15:19-23.
For to live in heaven as a disembodied soul presupposes there is no need for a resurrection (i.e. we can all just 'die and go to heaven'), something which the apostle Paul dealt with in 1 Corinthians 15:12-14.
People worry about a long, dark "soul sleep". Don't worry. It's like a time machine where your next conscious moment is in the resurrection. You are in the future. Those who died do not miss us; we miss them. Indeed, at death they wake up and say to family and friends, "I just died and you are all here with me already? Did you all die at the same time?" Truly the Lord has declared the end from the beginning because He's outside of time and space.
When a person is sent by God to
talk to Jesus, that’s different.
Ah, the personal attack by those losing the debate.
Yes you were. You mentioned the rich man suffering hell wanting his brothers to be warned.
I don’t.
Why is it different to someone being sent by God to speak to someone on earth who is not Jesus
The principle is the same
WHAT! How is my comment a personal attack?
The parable clearly states that no-one can come back from hell.
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us." (Lk 16:26)
I said
Lazarus is not in hell but in Abraham's bosom.
I do wish you would stop claiming I say things I didn't
You do.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.
Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.
Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.
Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.