Where is the justice?????????

[francisdesales]

My comment was in regards to your post where you quoted Matthew 25.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The point is is that "everlasting fire" doesn't mean the fire that lasts forever. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with "eternal" fire and they aren't still on fire.

The "everlasting fire" in Jud 1:7 is refering to God punishing, not the punishment itself. "...suffering the VENGEANCE OF eternal fire".

Matthew 25 is speaking of the actual punishment "...INTO everlasting fire". Now, the devil and his angels CONTINUE to suffer from this punishment? What makes you think that God will forgive them after they have been under torment since the beginning of time? And how will the wicked escape where the devil's angels did not???

If your parents aren't capable of "eternally" punishing you then what makes you think God does?

Are you saying that God is not capable of punishing someone "eternally"?

Your parent were created in His image. But, as you can see from the verse I quoted above, obviously "eternal" anything doesn't mean that the action is eternal it means that the "decision is final."

Same thing. The decision is final - there is no forgiveness, no repentance. If the decision is final, the punishment is indeed eternal.

Since you've come to understand that "outer darkness" doesn't mean "cast into fire" are you open to the possibility that "eternal" doesn't mean that the "action" is eternal but that the "decision is final?"

I have not come to understand that "outer darkness" doesn't mean "cast into fire". I have said they are synonymous. You are presenting a distinction without difference.

Right. The wicked will be burnt up by their decisions. They will not be able to approach the light that is Jesus. Because of His perfection of beauty and character the wicked will be unable to stand in front of Him.

If they can't stand near Him, that is Hell, my friend. Hell is eternal separation from God.

BTW, the "dross" isn't burned away in Heaven, the dross is burned away on earth (Mal 3:3).

[

Or in Purgatory.

Regards

 

[RND]

The "everlasting fire" in Jud 1:7 is refering to God punishing, not the punishment itself. "...suffering the VENGEANCE OF eternal fire".

Right. The "punishing" ends at some point. The "punishment is eternal.

Matthew 25 is speaking of the actual punishment "...INTO everlasting fire". Now, the devil and his angels CONTINUE to suffer from this punishment? What makes you think that God will forgive them after they have been under torment since the beginning of time? And how will the wicked escape where the devil's angels did not???

No one escapes the punishment. I certainly haven't suggested that. I think you're reading things into my comments, or suggesting I believe that people will escape punishment just because I don't believe the "punishing" last forever.

The wicked, including the devil and his angels are "burnt up."

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

Are you saying that God is not capable of punishing someone "eternally"?

Nope. Just saying He doesn't. He doesn't want to see the wicked punished either.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Same thing. The decision is final - there is no forgiveness, no repentance. If the decision is final, the punishment is indeed eternal.

Right. But the "punishing" isn't. So if that's the case then there isn't eternal punishing going on. It eventually stops.

I have not come to understand that "outer darkness" doesn't mean "cast into fire". I have said they are synonymous. You are presenting a distinction without difference.

Tell me, do you see any difference when walking into a room with lights on as opposed to the dark? Those aren't synonymous and neither is outer darkness with cast into the fire.

If they can't stand near Him, that is Hell, my friend. Hell is eternal separation from God.

Right, eternal separation. Not eternal punishing.

Or in Purgatory.

No such thing. Myth. Wife's tale. The Babylonians, Phoenicians, and Egyptians all believed in a purgatory. Hardly Biblical.

 

[St Francis]

....No such thing. Myth. Wife's tale. The Babylonians, Phoenicians, and Egyptians all believed in a purgatory. Hardly Biblical.

Yes such thing. Truth. Biblical. Revealed by God. Fact

 

[francisdesales]

Right. The "punishing" ends at some point. The "punishment is eternal.

Yet, I still don't see your distinction. The "Punisher" is eternal. Sometimes, He punishes forever, sometimes He doesn't. Sometimes the punishment is done one time and lasts forever, sometimes, it is done in time and is over.

No one escapes the punishment. I certainly haven't suggested that. I think you're reading things into my comments, or suggesting I believe that people will escape punishment just because I don't believe the "punishing" last forever.

So what makes you think if God can punish the devil and his angels for all time, God will suddenly stop punishing them? Is Satan going to apologize???

Oh, I am really sorry, God, for tricking billions of your creations to be punished and to cause countless untold human misery upon your earth... Now we're good, right??? ;-)

I do not think you quite understand what "passionate love" means. And again, you ignore the "unforgiveable sin"...

UNFORGIVEABLE...

Tell me, do you see any difference when walking into a room with lights on as opposed to the dark? Those aren't synonymous and neither is outer darkness with cast into the fire.

Huh? Who said "fire" had to refer to a physical brightness? You are trying to extrapolate our human experience into the next life. Kind of like an infant inside the womb thinking of what life will be outside after birth...

"Fire" can refer to the darkness that will surround those who are FOREVER cast out of THE light, God (according to Revelation, when the New Jerusalem will be illuminated by God Himself).

Right, eternal separation. Not eternal punishing.

You again give me a difference without distinction. If God is the reason for my existence, He is my ultimate purpose and meaning, gives ultimate happiness and joy - AND - I am ETERNALLY separated from this, I am being eternally punished...

No such thing. Myth. Wife's tale. The Babylonians, Phoenicians, and Egyptians all believed in a purgatory. Hardly Biblical.

The Babylonians and Phoenicians and Egyptians also thought it was wrong to kill... Just because pagans believed something doesn't nullify it.

Where is the verse in Scriptures that says "Purgatory doesn't exist?" It is quite biblical, just as the Trinity is.

Regards

 

[RND]

Yes such thing. Truth. Biblical. Revealed by God. Fact

Luke 16:19-31? Try again.

 

[RND]

Yet, I still don't see your distinction. The "Punisher" is eternal. Sometimes, He punishes forever, sometimes He doesn't. Sometimes the punishment is done one time and lasts forever, sometimes, it is done in time and is over.

Indeed, the "punisher" is eternal, and His "punishment" is certainly forever. It's the "punishing" the verb, the action, is temporary.

So what makes you think if God can punish the devil and his angels for all time, God will suddenly stop punishing them? Is Satan going to apologize???

The "punishment" they suffer will be forever. The torment won't be forever. Not even Satan.

I do not think you quite understand what "passionate love" means. And again, you ignore the "unforgiveable sin"...

UNFORGIVEABLE...

Saying something will be punished is not to say that the "punishing" the verb, the action will be forever. That the punishment is forever certainly means that sin won't be "unforgiven." How do you connect the two that way? I've never said won't be punished, just that the "punishing" won't last forever.

Huh? Who said "fire" had to refer to a physical brightness? You are trying to extrapolate our human experience into the next life. Kind of like an infant inside the womb thinking of what life will be outside after birth...

Were does light come from? A light source. And what is our life source?

"Fire" can refer to the darkness that will surround those who are FOREVER cast out of THE light, God (according to Revelation, when the New Jerusalem will be illuminated by God Himself).

It could. But never let the fact that it isn't get in the way of a good argument! Do you happen to have any corresponding scripture verses that could make your point for you or are you just guessing?

You again give me a difference without distinction. If God is the reason for my existence, He is my ultimate purpose and meaning, gives ultimate happiness and joy - AND - I am ETERNALLY separated from this, I am being eternally punished...

Right, no doubt. But you aren't in a constant state of "punishing." That's why there is a second death.

The Babylonians and Phoenicians and Egyptians also thought it was wrong to kill... Just because pagans believed something doesn't nullify it.

These were actually some of extremely ruthless and cruel societies. They killed a bunch. So that argument doesn't hold water. Besides, where is the scriptures does it say for Christians to adopt pagan beliefs?

Where is the verse in Scriptures that says "Purgatory doesn't exist?" It is quite biblical, just as the Trinity is.

Likewise, where's the verse that it does. Saying that something exists because the Bible is silent on it is just ludicrous. The Bible says nothing about bicycles, tanning booths, or golf courses but all those things exist... does that prove the Bible wrong?

Actually, if you want to the belief that there is a "purgatory" you should readily have some verses to back that claim up.

 

[St Francis]

Yes such thing. Truth. Biblical. Revealed by God. Fact

Luke 16:19-31? Try again.

Matt 16: 18 trumps personal intepretations. So to quote Augustine, ""Rome has spoken; the case is closed" (Sermon 131:10)

 

[RND]

Matt 16: 18 trumps personal intepretations. So to quote Augustine, ""Rome has spoken; the case is closed" (Sermon 131:10)

The blind leading the blind!

 

[dadof10]

Let me ask the same question you did above and apply it to the second half.

Is there a difference between "life" and "living?"

Yes.

Punishment - #2851 kolasis - from kolazw - kolazo 2849; penal infliction:--punishment, torment. - Not "punishing" but punishment.

The words are "INTO eternal punishment", just like the righteous will go "INTO eternal life." Punishment means:

<3,,2851,kolasis>
akin to kolazo (PUNISH, No. 1), "punishment," is used in Matt. 25:46, "(eternal) punishment," and 1 John 4:18, "(fear hath) punishment," RV (AV, "torment"), which there describes a process, not merely an effect; this kind of fear is expelled by perfect love; where God's love is being perfected in us, it gives no room for the fear of meeting with His reprobation; the "punishment" referred to is the immediate consequence of the sense of sin, not a holy awe but a slavish fear, the negation of the enjoyment of love.

The wicked go INTO an ETERNAL PROCESS. Remember, eternal means eternal.

Life - #2222 zoe - from zaw - zao 2198; life (literally or figuratively):--life(-time). Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

In this case understanding the meaning of words is very important. Punishment means punishment as in punishment. Life means life as in "life time."

In this case there is a distinct difference between "living" and life.

[quote:3ln3dt53]Will the rightous go into life that is eternal, but only temporarily? Temporary "living" in an eternal "life"?

No. The righteous will go into an eternal "lifetime."[/quote:3ln3dt53]

WOW, you are really twisting Scripture to suit your preconcieved dogma. According to Strong's, the ONLY time "zoe" is translated as "lifetime" is in Luke 16:25

"But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. (Luke (RSV) 16)

I really don't see where you are going with this. My point is that if the punishment is temporary so is the life. If you want to translate the word as "lifetime", I don't see how that makes your point.

True. But I can interpret it the way the words clearly state things.

The words clearly say that wicked "go away INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" and the righteous "go INTO ETERNAL LIFE". This is CLEAR. Your "explanation" is what's cloudy.

 

[RND]

The words are "INTO eternal punishment", just like the righteous will go "INTO eternal life." Punishment means:

Sure. But don't let the meaning of the words get in the way of the truth.

The wicked go INTO an ETERNAL PROCESS. Remember, eternal means eternal.

Right. But the "process" doesn't involve torture that never ends.

WOW, you are really twisting Scripture to suit your preconcieved dogma. According to Strong's, the ONLY time "zoe" is translated as "lifetime" is in Luke 16:25

Not so. "Zoe" means life or a lifetime in plenty of verses. The translators decided that in Luke 16:25 that zoe meant lifetime. But taking all conversations in there prper context zoe can mean "lifetime" even though the word "life" is used by the translators.

I really don't see where you are going with this. My point is that if the punishment is temporary so is the life. If you want to translate the word as "lifetime", I don't see how that makes your point.

The punishment is indeed temporary. The wicked will be punished when the enter into the lake of fire and are destroyed. Once they are destroyed their punishing will be over, however the punishment will be eternal.

The words clearly say that wicked "go away INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" and the righteous "go INTO ETERNAL LIFE". This is CLEAR. Your "explanation" is what's cloudy.

Not according to the definitions of the words it isn't.

 

[dadof10]

The words are "INTO eternal punishment", just like the righteous will go "INTO eternal life." Punishment means:

Sure. But don't let the meaning of the words get in the way of the truth.

Am I reading this right? "Don't let the meaning of the words get in the way of the truth"? Are you sure you meant to write this? This is Scripture. The words ARE Truth. Before I launch, I'll give you a chance to recant or clarify.

I wrote;

The wicked go INTO an ETERNAL PROCESS. Remember, eternal means eternal.

You wrote:

Right. But the "process" doesn't involve torture that never ends.

Then what exactly does "eternal" mean?

Not so. "Zoe" means life or a lifetime in plenty of verses. The translators decided that in Luke 16:25 that zoe meant lifetime. But taking all conversations in there prper context zoe can mean "lifetime" even though the word "life" is used by the translators.

You seem to have access to a lexicon. Where else does it give "zoe" the meaning of "lifetime"?
Me:

I really don't see where you are going with this. My point is that if the punishment is temporary so is the life. If you want to translate the word as "lifetime", I don't see how that makes your point.

You:

The punishment is indeed temporary. The wicked will be punished when the enter into the lake of fire and are destroyed. Once they are destroyed their punishing will be over, however the punishment will be eternal.

I still don't see how changing the word's meaning to "lifetime" makes the point that "punishment" is temporary and "lifetime" is never-ending, in the same sentence, in the same context.
Me:

The words clearly say that wicked "go away INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" and the righteous "go INTO ETERNAL LIFE". This is CLEAR. Your "explanation" is what's cloudy.

You:

Not according to the definitions of the words it isn't.

Don't let the definitions of the words get in the way of the truth. JK ;-)

 

[RND]

Am I reading this right? "Don't let the meaning of the words get in the way of the truth"? Are you sure you meant to write this? This is Scripture. The words ARE Truth. Before I launch, I'll give you a chance to recant or clarify.

Yes, you read that right. My comment was in regard to the definitions of Punishment and life. Not disputing what the Bible says, I'm simply making a point that the words do indeed mean what they mean. You seem to be dismissing the meaning of these words.

I wrote;
[quote:3u8dzt56]The wicked go INTO an ETERNAL PROCESS. Remember, eternal means eternal.

You wrote:

Right. But the "process" doesn't involve torture that never ends.

Then what exactly does "eternal" mean?
[/quote:3u8dzt56]

Without end or beginning. The punishment won't be eternal punishing as I have made mention.

Not so. "Zoe" means life or a lifetime in plenty of verses. The translators decided that in Luke 16:25 that zoe meant lifetime. But taking all conversations in there prper context zoe can mean "lifetime" even though the word "life" is used by the translators.

You seem to have access to a lexicon. Where else does it give "zoe" the meaning of "lifetime"?
Me:
[quote:3u8dzt56]I really don't see where you are going with this. My point is that if the punishment is temporary so is the life. If you want to translate the word as "lifetime", I don't see how that makes your point.

You:

The punishment is indeed temporary. The wicked will be punished when the enter into the lake of fire and are destroyed. Once they are destroyed their punishing will be over, however the punishment will be eternal.

I still don't see how changing the word's meaning to "lifetime" makes the point that "punishment" is temporary and "lifetime" is never-ending, in the same sentence, in the same context.[/quote:3u8dzt56]

Because the word punishment is definitive, meaning a set thing. It's a noun. Punishing is an adjective that describes an action. Life and lifetime are both nouns. Nouns are the object of verbs which are declarative.

Me:
[quote:3u8dzt56]The words clearly say that wicked "go away INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" and the righteous "go INTO ETERNAL LIFE". This is CLEAR. Your "explanation" is what's cloudy.

You:

Not according to the definitions of the words it isn't.

Don't let the definitions of the words get in the way of the truth. JK ;-)[/quote:3u8dzt56][/quote]

It is important when discussing language that we have a firm understanding that words mean things and are symbols for communication. That said, we need to examine the words in question and what they mean. As we can clearly see punishment and punishing are two different words born of the same derivative, punish. Life and lifetime are both nouns and thus tend to be quite similar in use.

In our discussion the word eternal is off the table. I understand it's meaning and usage and I'm in complete agreement with you regarding that usage. What we have to concentrate on is punishment and punishing and come to the reasonable conclusion that these are two different words.

 

[Rick W]

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Job 40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

 

[francisdesales]

Indeed, the "punisher" is eternal, and His "punishment" is certainly forever. It's the "punishing" the verb, the action, is temporary.

Not according to Scriptures already detailed. We have already related where Christ tells us that there is an unforgiveable sin. Thus, separation from God - punishment - is eternal.

The "punishment" they suffer will be forever. The torment won't be forever. Not even Satan.

I still do not understand your distinction. What is the difference?

Saying something will be punished is not to say that the "punishing" the verb, the action will be forever. That the punishment is forever certainly means that sin won't be "unforgiven." How do you connect the two that way? I've never said won't be punished, just that the "punishing" won't last forever.

See above... Christ says there is an unforgiveable sin. You seem to be at odds with God.

Were does light come from? A light source. And what is our life source?

God. Separation from God - forever - being cast into darkness, into hell, all the same thing. It is eternal separation, eternal punishment, unforgiven sin. How many more ways would you like me to say it?

These were actually some of extremely ruthless and cruel societies. They killed a bunch. So that argument doesn't hold water. Besides, where is the scriptures does it say for Christians to adopt pagan beliefs?

So did the United States of America.... They killed a "bunch" as well... Yet, we have laws, too.

As to adopting pagan beliefs, the point is made. Pagans also had laws that happened to correspond with the Decalogue at many points. This is the "law written on their hearts" according to Romans 2... God reaches out to all men, in some manner.

Likewise, where's the verse that it does. Saying that something exists because the Bible is silent on it is just ludicrous.

So you are saying that the Trinity is ludicrous because it is not explicitly mentioned in Scriptures? The idea of both Trinity and Purgatory are found implicitly in Scriptures. By meditating on the various Scriptures we have and how the Church has read the Scriptures from the beginning, our faith believes that God is a Triune God and that Purgatory is a state of existence that completes the burning away of the dross that was not completed in this life BEFORE going to heaven (where NOTHING unclean shall enter - including those with the unforgivable sin).

The Bible says nothing about bicycles, tanning booths, or golf courses but all those things exist... does that prove the Bible wrong?

Who said the Bible was wrong??? Something doesn't have to be explicitly mentioned before it is truth. I have already given you an example - Trinity. This is a belief that took some 300 years to hammer out and defined by the Church. Nowhere does the bible EXPLICITLY detail Trinity, NOR does the Bible rule it out. Same with Purgatory. It took the Church some time to ponder the meaning of Sacred Scriptures.

Actually, if you want to the belief that there is a "purgatory" you should readily have some verses to back that claim up.

I have provided numerous verses elsewhere. I have provided arguments that have not been answered here. They can be read at the "Purgatory" thread in the sub-category of Catholicism. Here is the link, if you are interested in reading about it...

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29466

Of course, the thread is locked. I will not discuss this anymore, except through private means and after you have briefly spooled up on what has already been written.

Regards

 

[St Francis]

Besides, where is the scriptures does it say for Christians to adopt pagan beliefs?

The scriptures say that the truth shall set you free. Any "Truth", if it is indeed "Truth", is of God regardless of where it is found.

Plato went against his Greek culture of multiple gods and said there is only one god. He was right. Would we reject this truth simply on the basis that Plato was not a Christian? That is narrow, fundametalist thinking.

In America, we accept representaive government as a given. We even fight to defend it. Yet representative government has its beginnings with the Greeks, and later with the Roman senate. The Bible only speaks of kingdoms. Do you want to burn the constitution and set up an American monarchy because it is more biblical? Or are you now going to pick and choose which pagan practices you accept and don't accept?

 

[brakelite2]

There is no perfect analogy, but perhaps the following may help to clarify the difference between 'punishing' and 'punishment'.
If I come home from work and am hungry, I might be prone to exaggerate and claim that I could consume a horse. Now the consuming of this horse, regardless of my appetite, may take some time. However, the horse will eventually be consumed. The entire process could be called a consummation. The 'consuming' was temporary, but the 'consumation' is eternal, in that the process will never be repeated. Not with that horse anyway. It's gone.
It is the same with God's punishing of the wicked. It is temporary in that it will endure only until the end of the life, until there is no more 'horse' to burn. The entire process is God's punishment of the wicked, and will not be repeated over and over again, it is a one time event, eternal in it's consequences, as there is no hope of a resurrection from the second death. Just as there was no hope for the consumed horse.

 

[St Francis]

Wow. And they say Catholics stretch the scriptures.
Now THAT is a STRETCH

 

[dadof10]

Yes, you read that right. My comment was in regard to the definitions of Punishment and life. Not disputing what the Bible says, I'm simply making a point that the words do indeed mean what they mean. You seem to be dismissing the meaning of these words.

Usually if you are going to use sarcasm it's customary to let the other person know. Throw up a smilie or something.

Not so. "Zoe" means life or a lifetime in plenty of verses. The translators decided that in Luke 16:25 that zoe meant lifetime. But taking all conversations in there prper context zoe can mean "lifetime" even though the word "life" is used by the translators.

Could you please give youg sources for where the word "zoe" is translated as "lifetime in plenty of verses", thanks.

Because the word punishment is definitive, meaning a set thing. It's a noun. Punishing is an adjective that describes an action. Life and lifetime are both nouns. Nouns are the object of verbs which are declarative.

First of all, adjectives describe nouns, not actions, adverbs describe action. Secondly, I can't find the word "punishing" in either one of my Greek lexicons. It's not a Greek word, so Matthew could not have used it even if he wanted to. Are you saying that if he wanted to convey that the wicked are punished eternally, he should have used the non-existant Greek adjective "punishing" instead of the noun "punishment"?

That said, we need to examine the words in question and what they mean. As we can clearly see punishment and punishing are two different words born of the same derivative, punish. Life and lifetime are both nouns and thus tend to be quite similar in use.

That's irrelevant. The point is that Matthew used the words he had available to make his point, and that point was that the wicked are punished eternally, and the righteous live eternally.

 

[Bubba]

Dr G. Campbell Morgan, commenting on Matthew 25:31-46 said this: "[W]e must be careful not to read into this section of prophecy things which it does not contain; for while it has been interpreted as though it were a description of the final judgment... These shall go away into age-abiding punishment; but the righteous into age-abiding life - the terms are coequal in value, and whatever one means the other means. Only remember that here Christ is not dealing with the subject of the soul's destiny either in heaven or hell. They are terms that have to do wholly with the setting up of the kingdom here in this world" Dr Campbell Morgan, was a Presbyterian teacher/pastor who believed in eternal punishment, he was also honest with his students in regards to "eternity and forever" in that it can not be found in the New Testament Greek literal translation, that we have so freely translated in English.
Bubba

 

[dadof10]

There is no perfect analogy, but perhaps the following may help to clarify the difference between 'punishing' and 'punishment'.
If I come home from work and am hungry, I might be prone to exaggerate and claim that I could consume a horse. Now the consuming of this horse, regardless of my appetite, may take some time. However, the horse will eventually be consumed. The entire process could be called a consummation. The 'consuming' was temporary, but the 'consumation' is eternal, in that the process will never be repeated. Not with that horse anyway. It's gone.
It is the same with God's punishing of the wicked. It is temporary in that it will endure only until the end of the life, until there is no more 'horse' to burn. The entire process is God's punishment of the wicked, and will not be repeated over and over again, it is a one time event, eternal in it's consequences, as there is no hope of a resurrection from the second death. Just as there was no hope for the consumed horse.

WOW, is this convoluted. If you are going to give an analogy, maybe you should try to come a little closer to what the verses actually say. I don't even know where to begin debunking this foolishness, but I don't have to, it debunks itself. Let's try one that gets a leeeeetttle closer to the truth.

A man goes to court and is found guilty of a crime. The judge says, "I sentence you to go away into a 20 year punishment." Does anyone in their right mind think the guilty man will be going to a place where there EXISTS 20 years worth of punishment but he is only going to be punished for 10 minutes then killed by the punishment? Would anyone think that the judge MEANT the prison will be operational for 20 years, but the guilty man would serve less time and be killed by the punishment?

How far do you have to twist Scripture to hold your position?