Where is the justice?????????

[RND]

But what of the person who does not seek forgiveness? What of the person who essentialy says, "Ya, thats right God. I'm sinning and I'm gonna keep on sinning." What about that kind of person. God cannot forgive those who neither repent nor seek forgiveness. And there are many of them, some even who claim the title of "Christian."

Do we have clear cut proof that God will torch these type of people, without mercy, forever?

 

[dadof10]

If you can show me any Bible text showing that the wicked are resurrected after the second death, then I will recant everything I have posted in this thread. Until then.....

I have football practice tonight, so only have time to deal with this one point. I'll expect a "recant" at your first possible convieneince. :P

Daniel 12:

"1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[St Francis]

But what of the person who does not seek forgiveness? What of the person who essentialy says, "Ya, thats right God. I'm sinning and I'm gonna keep on sinning." What about that kind of person. God cannot forgive those who neither repent nor seek forgiveness. And there are many of them, some even who claim the title of "Christian."

Do we have clear cut proof that God will torch these type of people, without mercy, forever?

I don't know, since I'm not sure what you standard for "clear cut proof" is. And your verbiage ("torch") is inappropriate. I mentioned that hell and heaven are states of being rather than places: One is either in union with God or seperated from God for eternity. And it is the individual who chooses his or her eternal status, not God. No torching.

 

[RND]

I don't know, since I'm not sure what you standard for "clear cut proof" is.

The Bible works for me.

And your verbiage ("torch") is inappropriate.

In what way? Would you prefer roast? Toast? Fricassee? Bake? Bar-b-cue? Sorry if you think it's inappropriate but I happen to think it's inappropriate to teach that a Loving God full of mercy and grace would resort to torture as punishment.

I mentioned that hell and heaven are states of being rather than places: One is either in union with God or seperated from God for eternity.

Yes, I agree with that general summation to a point. Clearly however the "grave" or "the pit" is described as "hell."

And it is the individual who chooses his or her eternal status, not God. No torching.

Torching? Isn't that "inappropriate?"

 

[St Francis]

The Bible works for me.

The Bible works for me too. What is the point.

And your verbiage ("torch") is inappropriate.

In what way? Would you prefer roast? Toast? Fricassee? Bake? Bar-b-cue?

Please, I pefer a little common sense, not silliness. Since hell is not a physical place, there is no actual flame or fire. As I said, one is either united or seperated from God for eternity. That is the difference between heaven and hell, and the individual makes the choice.

Yes, I agree with that general summation to a point. Clearly however the "grave" or "the pit" is described as "hell."

Again, those words are mere analogies, since they denote physical things and hell is not a physical place.

Torching? Isn't that "inappropriate?"

I said there is "No torching." I am correct.

 

[dadof10]

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we are the choosers of our own destiny. I have no problem with that whatsoever.And yes, I also agree that it is our actions by which we are judged.
This does in no way however change the fact that once that decision is made to reject the offer of mercy shown us through Jesus our Saviour, and we are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years to receive whatever fate God has in store for those who have denied Him, it remains also a fact that God must give immortality to the wicked in order to be tormented for eternity.

Then why is the title of this thread "Where's the Justice?" If we CHOOSE our own destiny how can giving us what we want be unjust? Why do you keep claiming we aren't addressing your OP (that a just God wouldn't "keep us alive in order to torture us forever")?

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say any such thing.

Yes it does. You simply won't accept that the words "eternal" and "everlasting", and the phrase "for ever", when speaking of the eternal, actually means never ending. You will only accept ONE "scholar's" OPINION (Robert Young) and reject all other 20th century scholars because they disagree with YOU.

Now about the strawman. Anything that tends to the misrepresentation of the character of God must be repudiated at whatever cost. The gross and vile belief that God's justice and anger with sin can never be appeased , and that it must continue without end, is a misrepresentation of the character of God of the most dangerous kind. And I can fully sympathise with atheists who reject God because of that teaching.

You just created a different strawman. NO ONE (that I know of) believes "the gross and vile belief that God's justice and anger with sin can never be appeased". I simply believe that at the moment of death the soul is in a state, due to the choices the person has made throughout life, that can either enjoy Heaven or not. If it can enjoy Heaven, that's where it goes, if not, it goes out of God's presence and is tormented forever, NOT BY GOD, but by the choices it made. In a way, the soul "chooses" to be cut off from God because in it's state, to be close to God is worse than being far away. No mention of "anger" having to be appeased, or God personally doing any torment. Just a loving God Who invites ALL PEOPLE to come to Him. We are the ones who choose to be, or not to be, tortured.

The cross is at the centre of everything we believe as Christians. Anything that is contrary to the cross must also be repudiated. Jesus paid the fullprice for our redemption. Now I know that you Catholics believe that purgatory and penance etc is also necessary. These beliefs fly in the face of God's provision for our redemption. Jesus paid the full price, nothing can be added to it.

You have already shown you don't understand the doctrine of sin, now you show you understand neither Purgatory nor penance.

Jesus did not spend eternity in a burning hell.

Another straw-man. Try to reply to what I'm saying instead of what you want me to say.

 

[francisdesales]

But what of the person who does not seek forgiveness? What of the person who essentialy says, "Ya, thats right God. I'm sinning and I'm gonna keep on sinning." What about that kind of person. God cannot forgive those who neither repent nor seek forgiveness. And there are many of them, some even who claim the title of "Christian."

Do we have clear cut proof that God will torch these type of people, without mercy, forever?

Yep. How about this for starters...


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Mat 25:41-46

If heaven is eternal, so is hell. Everlasting punishment seems pretty clear, except for those who cannot accept the Word of God and have fantasies about going to heaven no matter what they do here on earth.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
I think I have tried to answer your thought on the "unpardonable sin", what more do you want? Each verse I brought up was to support my notion of a eventual reconciliation of mankind, even those like the unpardonable sin group in the next age. You certainly do not have to agree with me, but I have been fair.
Bubba

Your claim that Paul is speaking about a third age because he was taken away to a third heaven NOW??? Sorry, you are twisting Scriptures. The rest, you'll have to explain further, because you were bouncing all over the place.

Paul says he WENT to a third heaven, not that there will be a third age. That means he ALREADY "visited" this "place". Jesus clearly says there is an unpardonable sin that will not be forgiven in the age to come. There is no evidence that Jesus will forgive such a sin at a later date. Please re-read the verse in question.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Your claim that Paul is speaking about a third age because he was taken away to a third heaven NOW??? Sorry, you are twisting Scriptures. The rest, you'll have to explain further, because you were bouncing all over the place.

Paul says he WENT to a third heaven, not that there will be a third age. That means he ALREADY "visited" this "place". Jesus clearly says there is an unpardonable sin that will not be forgiven in the age to come. There is no evidence that Jesus will forgive such a sin at a later date. Please re-read the verse in question.

Francisdesales,
I am not sure what you are talking about, I have mentioned nothing about a third heaven. I have mentioned an apparent order of events in 1Corinthians 15:23-24, which you should have no problem with. It seems to me, that for a person to believe in a “Purgatoryâ€Â, that person would not have difficulty perceiving at least 3 ages. The age prior to going to Purgatory, the age of Purgatory and then the age with all others in the Kingdom of God.
Grace, Bubba

 

[dadof10]

I don't know, since I'm not sure what you standard for "clear cut proof" is.

The Bible works for me.

You mean your interpretation of the Bible works for you?

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
I am not sure what you are talking about, I have mentioned nothing about a third heaven. I have mentioned an apparent order of events in 1Corinthians 15:23-24, which you should have no problem with. It seems to me, that for a person to believe in a “Purgatoryâ€Â, that person would not have difficulty perceiving at least 3 ages. The age prior to going to Purgatory, the age of Purgatory and then the age with all others in the Kingdom of God.
Grace, Bubba

Sorry, I thought you were talking about something else.

I don't see any mention of a third age in 1 Cor 15:23-24

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


The end comes. Where is the third age? We are in the last age, and when Christ comes again, we will enter a new age. What about an age following Christ's second coming??? I don't see that here. Nothing suggests that hell will be emptied. God rules over all authority and power refers to earthly power, kings. God already has power over the devil, but it will be completed upon the coming of the SECOND age, with Christ's second coming.

As to Purgatory, that remains open "now" and will be "closed" once the Second Coming of Christ arrives. Purgatory has existed alongside hell and heaven, but they are not different ages. Purgatory will not exist anymore, as people will end up either in hell or heaven. Purgatory has nothing to do with a "third age". Once Christ comes again, there will be no "further" age to come. Nothing in Scriptures suggest a change AGAIN after Christ's coming. All will be in God at this point.

Regards

 

[brakelite2]

If you can show me any Bible text showing that the wicked are resurrected after the second death, then I will recant everything I have posted in this thread. Until then.....

I have football practice tonight, so only have time to deal with this one point. I'll expect a "recant" at your first possible convieneince. :P

Daniel 12:

"1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Please note, that I said "after the second death" This occurs at the end of the 1000 years, when the wicked are raised from their graves and face the execution of the judgement. They are thrown into the lake of fire along with the evil angels and the devil. There they suffer until they die. That is the second death, from which there is no resurrection. That death is eternal.
Your quote from Daniel describes two seperate events. The first is the second coming when the righteous in Christ are raised to join their Lord in the air and go to heaven. The second is the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years of the wicked as I described above.

 

[RND]

Yep. How about this for starters...


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Mat 25:41-46

If heaven is eternal, so is hell.

That's what's called a "logical leap."

Everlasting punishment seems pretty clear, except for those who cannot accept the Word of God and have fantasies about going to heaven no matter what they do here on earth.

Questions: Who was the "fire" prepared for? Is the punishment everlasting or is the "punishing" everlasting? What do you make of the fact that Jesus also says the disobedient will be cast into "outer darkness?" Is fire the same as "outer darkness?" Is Jesus in hell forever (See Rev. 14:10)?

 

[francisdesales]

Questions: Who was the "fire" prepared for? Is the punishment everlasting or is the "punishing" everlasting? What do you make of the fact that Jesus also says the disobedient will be cast into "outer darkness?" Is fire the same as "outer darkness?" Is Jesus in hell forever (See Rev. 14:10)?

1. The devil, his angels, and the wicked who REJECT God (as John 3, et al mention) The condemned will be condemned forever.

2. Fail to see the distinction.

3. Outer darkness = fire = life without God = "death" = eternal punishment = worm that never dies etc...

4. No, this means that the righteous will see the results of disobeying and rejecting God. Recall earlier in Revelation where the righteous asked God when He would punish the wicked. Not when He would furlough them...

Regards

 

[RND]

1. The devil, his angels, and the wicked who REJECT God (as John 3, et al mention) The condemned will be condemned forever.

It just says the devil and his angels.

2. Fail to see the distinction.

Is there a difference between "punishment" and "punishing?"

Were you punished as a child by your parents? Are your parents still "punishing" you for the crimes you committed as a child?

3. Outer darkness = fire = life without God = "death" = eternal punishment = worm that never dies etc...

That's not how the Greek translates it.

Outer = exoteros #1857 - comparative of exw - exo 1854; exterior:--outer.
Darkness = skotos #4655 - from the base of skia - skia 4639; shadiness, i.e. obscurity (literally or figuratively):--darkness.

Outer darkness mean outer darkness.

4. No, this means that the righteous will see the results of disobeying and rejecting God. Recall earlier in Revelation where the righteous asked God when He would punish the wicked. Not when He would furlough them...

Right, exactly. They will be tormented by the wrong decisions they have made regarding God's free gift of salvation. It will be agony to be next to the wonderful flame of fire that is Jesus Christ.

Isa 33:14 ¶ The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure.

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.

Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

 

[dadof10]

Is there a difference between "punishment" and "punishing?"

Were you punished as a child by your parents? Are your parents still "punishing" you for the crimes you committed as a child?

This is simply semantics in an attempt to reconcile SDA doctrine with Scriptural Truth. Let's look at the verse logically.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal". Mat 25:46

You would have us believe that the wicked will "go away into" punishment that is eternal, but only temporarily, only until thay are burned up. Temporary "punishing" by eternal "punishment". Now, let's take this logic into the next half of the sentence.

Let me ask the same question you did above and apply it to the second half.

Is there a difference between "life" and "living?"

Will the rightous go into life that is eternal, but only temporarily? Temporary "living" in an eternal "life"?

You can not interpret the Word of God as you see fit to justify a man-made doctrine.

[quote:14wngmuf]3. Outer darkness = fire = life without God = "death" = eternal punishment = worm that never dies etc...

That's not how the Greek translates it.

Outer = exoteros #1857 - comparative of exw - exo 1854; exterior:--outer.
Darkness = skotos #4655 - from the base of skia - skia 4639; shadiness, i.e. obscurity (literally or figuratively):--darkness.

Outer darkness mean outer darkness.[/quote:14wngmuf]

Here is how the word "eternal" is translated in Greek.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philem. 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb. 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' John 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor. 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

And this is from Strongs;

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Eternal means eternal.

 

[dadof10]

If you can show me any Bible text showing that the wicked are resurrected after the second death, then I will recant everything I have posted in this thread. Until then.....

I have football practice tonight, so only have time to deal with this one point. I'll expect a "recant" at your first possible convieneince. :P

Daniel 12:

"1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Please note, that I said "after the second death" This occurs at the end of the 1000 years, when the wicked are raised from their graves and face the execution of the judgement. They are thrown into the lake of fire along with the evil angels and the devil. There they suffer until they die. That is the second death, from which there is no resurrection. That death is eternal.
Your quote from Daniel describes two seperate events. The first is the second coming when the righteous in Christ are raised to join their Lord in the air and go to heaven. The second is the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years of the wicked as I described above.

You didn't agree with me??? There's a surprise. I thought you would say the "contempt" is eternal, we just temporarily awake to it. :D

 

[RND]

Let me ask the same question you did above and apply it to the second half.

Is there a difference between "life" and "living?"

Yes.

Punishment - #2851 kolasis - from kolazw - kolazo 2849; penal infliction:--punishment, torment. - Not "punishing" but punishment.

Life - #2222 zoe - from zaw - zao 2198; life (literally or figuratively):--life(-time). Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

In this case understanding the meaning of words is very important. Punishment means punishment as in punishment. Life means life as in "life time."

In this case there is a distinct difference between "living" and life.

Will the rightous go into life that is eternal, but only temporarily? Temporary "living" in an eternal "life"?

No. The righteous will go into an eternal "lifetime."

You can not interpret the Word of God as you see fit to justify a man-made doctrine.

True. But I can interpret it the way the words clearly state things.

Eternal means eternal.

Sure does.

 

[francisdesales]

1. The devil, his angels, and the wicked who REJECT God (as John 3, et al mention) The condemned will be condemned forever.

It just says the devil and his angels.

Excuse me? John 3 doesn't mention angels.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18-20, 36

Is there a difference between "punishment" and "punishing?"

Were you punished as a child by your parents? Are your parents still "punishing" you for the crimes you committed as a child?

Yes. No. But my parents didn't say they would ETERNALLY punish me... Does our Father lie?

Outer darkness = fire = life without God = "death" = eternal punishment = worm that never dies etc...

That's not how the Greek translates it.

Outer = exoteros #1857 - comparative of exw - exo 1854; exterior:--outer.
Darkness = skotos #4655 - from the base of skia - skia 4639; shadiness, i.e. obscurity (literally or figuratively):--darkness.

Outer darkness mean outer darkness.

Thanks... And eternal means eternal...

Right, exactly. They will be tormented by the wrong decisions they have made regarding God's free gift of salvation. It will be agony to be next to the wonderful flame of fire that is Jesus Christ.

[/quote]

LOL!!! Only those who are believers are going to have the "dross" burnt away. The wicked will not recieve this free gift. NOTHING unclean shall enter heaven... ESPECIALLY those with the unforgiveable sin. How does someone with an unforgiveable sin enter into heaven, unclean????

Regards

 

[RND]

Excuse me? John 3 doesn't mention angels.

My comment was in regards to your post where you quoted Matthew 25.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The point is is that "everlasting fire" doesn't mean the fire that lasts forever. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with "eternal" fire and they aren't still on fire.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Yes. No. But my parents didn't say they would ETERNALLY punish me... Does our Father lie?

If your parents aren't capable of "eternally" punishing you then what makes you think God does? Your parent were created in His image. But, as you can see from the verse I quoted above, obviously "eternal" anything doesn't mean that the action is eternal it means that the "decision is final."

Thanks... And eternal means eternal...

Your welcome. Since you've come to understand that "outer darkness" doesn't mean "cast into fire" are you open to the possibility that "eternal" doesn't mean that the "action" is eternal but that the "decision is final?"

LOL!!! Only those who are believers are going to have the "dross" burnt away. The wicked will not recieve this free gift. NOTHING unclean shall enter heaven... ESPECIALLY those with the unforgiveable sin. How does someone with an unforgiveable sin enter into heaven, unclean????

Right. The wicked will be burnt up by their decisions. They will not be able to approach the light that is Jesus. Because of His perfection of beauty and character the wicked will be unable to stand in front of Him.

BTW, the "dross" isn't burned away in Heaven, the dross is burned away on earth (Mal 3:3).