Where is the justice?????????

[St Francis]

....“think for yourself†and step “out of the box†of organized religion who believes God will torment the majority of the human race forever....

Well, since Jesus organized His Church, and since Jesus says that accursed ones will be in "eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" and that "these will go away into eternal punishment" (Matt 25:41,46), I'm afraid I'm stickin with Jesus and dadof10 on this one.

 

[Bubba]

Or Jesus said they would go into an "age correction" (eon, kolassin) for Matthew 45:46 depending on if tradition or truth is at the helm.1 Timothy 4:10 (New American Standard Bible)



10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Grace, Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Salvation is now AVAILABLE to all men. You propose cheap grace.

The road to eternal life is narrow. It is open to every individual, but some are wicked and will not take the road...

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
The Scripture does not say "salvation is available to all men" it says "Savior of all men, especially the believer". No cheap grace, Jesus died for the whole world such is the great love God has for His creation.
Bubba

1John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."

 

[St Francis]

....No cheap grace...

I always thought grace was free... ??? :smt017

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
The Scripture does not say "salvation is available to all men" it says "Savior of all men, especially the believer". No cheap grace, Jesus died for the whole world such is the great love God has for His creation.
Bubba

1John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."

Of course Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins - OUR. Those who ask for forgiveness. It is available to the entire world. Christ's work is not like the sacrifices of the high priests who had to continuously sacrifice. Christ's ONE sacrifice was sufficient for all men to draw from.

However, where in the Bible do you find God forgiving the wicked? Where does God give man forgiveness where there is no repentance? What IS the point of the Gospel - REPENT AND BELIEVE? Without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

This is the unforgiveable sin. One that God DOES NOT forgive, in this age, or the age to come... Stubborn unrepentant men and women.

Salvation is conditional. It is not cheap FOR US, either. We must DIE to SELF. That is not cheap!!!

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Dadof10,
Obviously you do not remember what I wrote or it really doesn’t matter what I wrote or quoted from in regards to the word “aion†meaning age for both groups in Mt. 45:46.

I do remember and it's NOT in agreement with Mr. Hanson, which is why I don't understand why you quoted him. It seems as though you are trying to find ANYONE who disagrees with me (and died before 1900) to quote. It's just a little frustrating because I try to research each quote, so if you quote someone you won't defend, I'm just wasting my time.

I have been “thinking for myself†for several years now, and that is why I discuss the topics that I do. Over 30 years of traditional thought, and over the last few years, I now realized how duped I was in respect to God’s love.
Dadof10, I think the tone has changed in our dialog and it is time to call it quits.

I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't mean to offend you, I was speaking out of frustration more than anything else. I apologize.

Take care and receive your own advice “think for yourself†and step “out of the box†of organized religion who believes God will torment the majority of the human race forever.

If by "organized religion" you mean Catholicism, I can't "step out of the box" of Truth any more than Paul or James or Peter, etc. could. You take care too, Bubba and I'm sure I'll bump into you now and then.

God Bless, Mark

 

[dadof10]

Francisdesales,
The Scripture does not say "salvation is available to all men" it says "Savior of all men, especially the believer". No cheap grace, Jesus died for the whole world such is the great love God has for His creation.
Bubba

1John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."

Bubba, your universalism is showing :P

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
I believe when it comes to the final age, all of mankind will have repented and willfully bowed their knees. Those spoken of that Christ visited who were of Noah’s day are a good example (1 Peter 4:6) that God is not done with individuals who have not repented and have gone on to another age or realm.
Mark (Dadof10),
I am not sure what you are referring to in respect to not being in agreement with J.W. Hanson. In what I quoted I am in total agreement, “aion†means “age†and any adjective added can not deviate from the original noun “aionâ€Â. “Thayer writes in respect to “aioniosâ€Â, A long time, duration of time, where both a specifically limited period of time as well as an unlimited period can be meant;..â€Â. So, “aionios†can mean for a long period of time(an long age, but not eternity) for both groups in Mt. 45:46, longer then the word “prokarios†would intend.
There are many Catholic’s that I have read or read about and respect from throughout history, like Augustine, Aquinas , Francis of Assisi, Descartes and etc, so just because one lived in the 19th century doesn’t take away what truth they may have had expounded on at the time of their life. By “traditionâ€Â, I mean what both the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Protestant Churches has taught about eternal torment. No offense taken, but it is nonetheless time to go on. These Greek word studies on specific verses that seem to imply eternal torment, both sides have written volumes. I have come around to the UR side scratching and kicking, because “tradition†is difficult to let go of, but seeing a more magnificent side of our Father has made it worth the effort.
Peace, Bubba (George)
Ps Thayer is like Vine and Strong, all tee say “age†for “aion†and then go off on a tangent with the adjectives, but if you dig deep enough…

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
I believe when it comes to the final age, all of mankind will have repented and willfully bowed their knees. Those spoken of that Christ visited who were of Noah’s day are a good example (1 Peter 4:6) that God is not done with individuals who have not repented and have gone on to another age or realm.

Where is the Biblical evidence of ALL the wicked repenting? While I agree that God DESIRES that all men repent, it is not apparent that Scriptures teach such a thing will happen. Hebrews, for example, tells us that one must be holy before they will see God. How are the wicked going to become holy if they don't repent - or are not forgiven for this unrepentance???

This Christ assures us when He tells us there is an unforgiveable sin. In this age OR the next age. You continue to ignore Scriptures, and thus, your theology is faulty. This is why it is so important to read the Scriptures while maintaining the entirety of the faith, the so called "analogy of the faith". Removing one part because it doesn't suit your purpose or rational turns Christianity from a revealed religion to a philosophical one based on personal opinions.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
In regards to Biblical proof besides what I have already written (1Peter 4:6, Col. 1:20, 1Tim.4:10, 1John 2:2) that you have not really addressed, here are a few others;

1Corinthians 12:3: "…and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

Philippians 2:10-11: "so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
If people are just bowing outwardly out of fear or awe while their hearts remain unbowed, that doesn't glorify God. Some day, every creature everywhere will willingly bow in worship and adoration as it says so clearly in our next verse, Revelation 5:13: "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, `To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever! "This is so obviously genuine worship! Would God who loves all mankind really cast anyone into everlasting torment who worships Him like this? Obviously John is looking past the judgment to a time when everyone everywhere has at last been reconciled to God and God is all in all!"

PSALM 145:3-17 Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom. .I will meditate on your wonderful works. They will tell of the power of your awesome works, and I will proclaim your great deeds. They will celebrate your abundant goodness ... The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. All you have made will praise you, 0 Lord ... They will tell of the glory of your kingdom and speak of your might, so that all men may know of your mighty acts...Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is faithful to all his promises and loving toward all he has made. The Lord upholds all those who fall ... The Lord is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made. (NIV)

1Corinthians 3:10-15, "10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
If you consider that there is only a few verses that explicitly speak about eternal punishment and the word eternal is highly debatable (aionios) and the word Hell is actually found no where in the Bible (in Hebrew or Greek), who really can stand firmly that God is going to torment the majority of mankind forever?
Grace, Bubba

 

[dadof10]

I am not sure what you are referring to in respect to not being in agreement with J.W. Hanson. In what I quoted I am in total agreement, “aion†means “age†and any adjective added can not deviate from the original noun “aionâ€Â.

When the word "zoe" is placed after the word “aionios†does it mean "never-ending life"? If you say "yes" you disagree with this statement from Mr. Hanson: "It having clearly appeared that the noun is uniformly used to denote limited duration, and never to signify eternity, it is equally apparent that the adjective must mean the same."

I'll ask again:

Why, when the word "aiónios" is before the word "life" it means "eternal"? What about the word "life" conjures up in the mind eternity? I'm sure I can find a few places in Scripture where the word life is used to denote a temporary state, so why does "eternal punishment" mean temporary punishment, but "eternal life" means "never-ending life"?

"Thayer writes in respect to “aioniosâ€Â, A long time, duration of time, where both a specifically limited period of time as well as an unlimited period can be meant;..â€Â. So, “aionios†can mean for a long period of time(an long age, but not eternity) for both groups in Mt. 45:46, longer then the word “prokarios†would intend.

Why does the "age" have to end? Is it POSSIBLE that the word can be used to denote an "eternal age" as Thayer says? You seem to agree because you think when the word is connected to the word "life" it denotes "eternal life".

There are many Catholic’s that I have read or read about and respect from throughout history, like Augustine, Aquinas , Francis of Assisi, Descartes and etc, so just because one lived in the 19th century doesn’t take away what truth they may have had expounded on at the time of their life.

Right, AT THE TIME OF THEIR LIVES. We are not talking about the THEOLOGY or IDEAS of Aquanis, Young, Thayer, Descartes. etc. We are talking about their Greek scholarship and there have been MANY advances in this area in the past 100 years. The Dead Sea Scrolls comes to mind as does how quickly we all share information now and it's accuracy. The majority of the people you are quoting have their roots in the 19th century. I'm not discounting ALL Greek scholarship before the internet age, all I'm saying is that that maybe we should be getting the best, most accurate info, instead of just looking for anyone who agrees with us and going with it, at the expense of EVERYONE who disagrees with them (and us).

 

[guibox]

Why, when the word "aiónios" is before the word "life" it means "eternal"? What about the word "life" conjures up in the mind eternity? I'm sure I can find a few places in Scripture where the word life is used to denote a temporary state, so why does "eternal punishment" mean temporary punishment, but "eternal life" means "never-ending life"?

Because as has been already pointed out, 'aionios' can mean 'eternal without end'. but it also can mean 'age lasting' or 'as long as life lasts'. The importance is the relevance to whom it is speaking about. The righteous have 'never ending life' because they are raised immortal at the second coming. 'aionios' for them is indeed 'never ending' not because of the adjective 'aionios', but because their very nature is immortal now.

The wicked do not have eternal life or immortality in any form (something in which you still have not proven except for reasoning from the inside out). Hence, 'aionios' means 'age lasting' if you believe that the punishment is torment by fire. It literally would mean 'as long as life lasts'. (See 1 Samuel 1:21 and vs 28 to show this usage in the scripture).

If however, you believe that the punishment is indeed death, then 'aionios' as applied to the states of 'life and 'death' would be in fact for all eternity.

 

[Bubba]

When the word "zoe" is placed after the word “aionios†does it mean "never-ending life"? If you say "yes" you disagree with this statement from Mr. Hanson: "It having clearly appeared that the noun is uniformly used to denote limited duration, and never to signify eternity, it is equally apparent that the adjective must mean the same."

I'll ask again:

Why, when the word "aiónios" is before the word "life" it means "eternal"? What about the word "life" conjures up in the mind eternity? I'm sure I can find a few places in Scripture where the word life is used to denote a temporary state, so why does "eternal punishment" mean temporary punishment, but "eternal life" means "never-ending life"?

Dadof 10,
No "aionios" does not mean eternal before "life" in Mt. 45:46, it means that the believer will go into the next age with life in Christ. Eternity starts for both groups, when we have a new earth and a new heaven, glorified bodies and God is "all in all".
Bubba

 

[dadof10]

Dadof 10,
No "aionios" does not mean eternal before "life" in Mt. 45:46, it means that the believer will go into the next age with life in Christ. Eternity starts for both groups, when we have a new earth and a new heaven, glorified bodies and God is "all in all".
Bubba

Is the "next age with life in Christ" eternal, everlasting, never-ending? Does this verse (Mt. 25:46) refer to the "next age with life in Christ"? If yes to both of these questions, then how on earth can you say the word "aionios" does NOT mean eternal in this context??? This is getting really frustrating.

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
In regards to Biblical proof besides what I have already written (1Peter 4:6, Col. 1:20, 1Tim.4:10, 1John 2:2) that you have not really addressed, here are a few others

More smoke screens, as you cannot answer the "unforgiveable sin". It just doesn't fit into your paradigm. You have not explained how the unholy will be in God's presence in heaven - and that is their status if their sins are not forgiven. Hebrews says NO ONE will enter into the Lord's presence unless they are holy. Revelation says the same thing. Nothing unclean will enter heaven.

It is really quite simple. The verses you toss around do not address them - and I have already touched on most of them. However, I'll do it one more time, since you say I have "not really addressed" them...

1 Peter 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

Refers to Christ's descent into hell (Hades) to preach to the righteous dead of the OT. Upon His death on the cross, the righteous were freed and allowed into heaven. All that they learned as Jews culminated with Christ, THE Word of God. Nothing to do with the wicked in hell.

And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven. And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. Col 1:20-23

I posted a few more lines, as it becomes clear that Paul is not talking about universal salvation for all men, but for those who converted... "IF SO YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH..." It becomes clear from this passage that the "you" refers to Christians who continue in the faith, not the wicked...

1Tim.4:10 For therefore we labor and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful
Yes, God provides salvation to all men, but in the end, only to the faith who accept His invitation...

Paul later writes to Timothy...

A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us. 2 Timothy 2:11-12

See the conditionals? If. If. If. Salvation is offered, IF we accept it. If we use the faith God gives us. If we do not grieve the Holy Spirit. If we do not return to the vomit of our former lives... Etc...

1John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Again, yes, He is a sin offering for the entire world - but again, forgiveness is only offered to those who repent. It is not necessary for every generation to annually resacrifice for the sake of the community, as at Yom Kippur. Again, I ask, where does God forgive the wicked and unrepentant? Just one verse, please...

Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all men, but not efficient. Just as the parable of the sower and the seed, salvation is rained down upon all men, the good and the wicked. However, only a certain few will actually provide fruit. Christ makes it plain that only those who bear fruit will remain in Him. In heaven. The rest will be cut off, cast off, burned, sent away, etc. Hell.

1Corinthians 12:3: "…and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

Obviously, that doesn't just mean saying the words, but actually meaning them out of a heart-felt belief in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Philippians 2:10-16: "That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world. holding forth the word of life to my glory in the day of Christ, because I have not run in vain, nor laboured in vain.


Again, context is so important, and helps to explain that your interpretation does not give with the rest of what this passage says... So let's continue again further. Clearly, those who will bow in adoration, the angels and the people of God (whether in heaven, under the earth, or on the earth) are the ones who will give adoration...

The "every knee" does not refer to a universal knee, but every Christian and worshipper of God (angels). The Bible tells us that God does not accept the worship of the wicked, as it is false. Over and over, the OT clearly tells us that. Would you like a list of quotes? God does not need nor accept false "worship" from those in hell.

Now, to the passage. It says further on IMMEDIATELY following to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" and so forth. Paul continues to exhort Christians to continue in their walk, so as not to RUN IN VAIN...

If God will wipe the slate clean universally, it seems senseless to worry about "running in vain" or "working out your salvation" if God already will do so. Apparently, Paul didn't think that way.


1Corinthians 3:10-15, "By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
Purgatory.

Now. No doubt you will say everything is wrong and you are right. Well, the Bible gives us a solution for this "empasse". Take it to the Church. Matthew 18:16-17. If you really are a follower of the bible, you will take it to the Church - and the Church says the unforgiveable sin will not be forgiven and that hell is eternal punishment for those who reject God.

Until you can give an effective answer to the unforgiveable sin, there is nothing more to say to you.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Dadof 10,
No "aionios" does not mean eternal before "life" in Mt. 45:46, it means that the believer will go into the next age with life in Christ. Eternity starts for both groups, when we have a new earth and a new heaven, glorified bodies and God is "all in all".
Bubba

Is the "next age with life in Christ" eternal, everlasting, never-ending? Does this verse (Mt. 25:46) refer to the "next age with life in Christ"? If yes to both of these questions, then how on earth can you say the word "aionios" does NOT mean eternal in this context??? This is getting really frustrating.

Dadof 10,
You can ask yourself if when a person believes in Jesus in this age are they beginning eternity with Jesus? The Reform and Baptist would say yes, the Roman Catholics, Nazarenes, Church of Christ would say no. I personally would say yes with a qaulification; in that this age and the age to come is not the last age, and that is why I believe Matthew chose to use "aionios" instead of "prokarios".
Grace , Bubba

 

[dadof10]

Because as has been already pointed out, 'aionios' can mean 'eternal without end'. but it also can mean 'age lasting' or 'as long as life lasts'.

The wicked do not have eternal life or immortality in any form (something in which you still have not proven except for reasoning from the inside out).

It has also already been pointed out that a source you cited as an authority (Vine's) has completely debunked your ieisigesis of the passage:

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philem. 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb. 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' John 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor. 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb. 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7, and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mark 9:43. "The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thess. 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp. 232,233.]

I have not proved it, you have by citing Vine's as a source.

 

[Bubba]

"

Until you can give an effective answer to the unforgiveable sin, there is nothing more to say to you"

Francisdesales,
I was going to give you my opinion why I believe you are wrong in respect to the verses you explained and then I came to the last point you made. I have tried to give you a good explaination for the unpardonable sin not being a issue in a future age, but you are not willing to receive what I wrote. I will give you something you may ponder on, could not the Pharasees (Jews) unpardonable sin be in reference to the age of the Law that they were in when they spoke such a sin and in the following Church age still held true, in that very few Jews have come to know Jesus, especially the Orthodox Jew? So, in essence their refusal to receive Jesus even today, means they are still under the curse of unbelief and still believing the works of the Spirit (Jesus) were not the works of God.
Blessings, Bubba
A late edit, read the whole chapter of Romans 11 and see if God reveals something to you.

 

[dadof10]

Dadof 10,
No "aionios" does not mean eternal before "life" in Mt. 45:46, it means that the believer will go into the next age with life in Christ. Eternity starts for both groups, when we have a new earth and a new heaven, glorified bodies and God is "all in all".
Bubba

Is the "next age with life in Christ" eternal, everlasting, never-ending? Does this verse (Mt. 25:46) refer to the "next age with life in Christ"? If yes to both of these questions, then how on earth can you say the word "aionios" does NOT mean eternal in this context??? This is getting really frustrating.

Dadof 10,
You can ask yourself if when a person believes in Jesus in this age are they beginning eternity with Jesus? The Reform and Baptist would say yes, the Roman Catholics, Nazarenes, Church of Christ would say no. I personally would say yes with a qaulification; in that this age and the age to come is not the last age, and that is why I believe Matthew chose to use "aionios" instead of "prokarios".
Grace , Bubba

I know why you think "Matthew chose to use "aionios" instead of "prokarios"." What I keep asking, and still don't have an answer to is this:

Is the "next age with life in Christ" eternal, everlasting, never-ending? Does this verse (Mt. 25:46) refer to the "next age with life in Christ"? If "yes" to both of these questions, then how on earth can you say the word "aionios" does NOT mean eternal in this context???

According to Catholic theology at the moment of conception we are created as ETERNAL BEINGS. That's when we "begin eternity". It is our nature, that's the way we are created. When we die, we are raised and spend eternity either in Heaven or Hell.