Where is the justice?????????

[Bubba]

Yes, let's take a glance at the Reformation. Many man-made errors came out of it. Many more came out of the SDA split also, including the one you hold on this subject.

Dadof10,
I can agree with what you wrote, all of us are influenced by something or someone, getting to the truth of any given thought can be a lot of work. I am not an SDA, nor have I been greatly influenced by the Annihilation side, though they do demonstrate in many of their writings that much of what orthodox believes about death, Hell, the next age, is highly debatable even amongst scholars.
Grace, Bubba

 

[dadof10]

I can agree with what you wrote, all of us are influenced by something or someone, getting to the truth of any given thought can be a lot of work. I am not an SDA, nor have I been greatly influenced by the Annihilation side, though they do demonstrate in many of their writings that much of what orthodox believes about death, Hell, the next age, is highly debatable even amongst scholars.
Grace, Bubba

Bubba,

That is why Jesus founded a Holy-Spirit guided Church, to deal with doctrinal differences, divisions and teach the Truth. I did not mean to assume you are SDA. What do you mean by "orthodox"?

God Bless, Mark

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
God refusing to pardon the sin of “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit†in this age and the next does not imply His lack of mercy or compassion for the individual. As a parent, I may choose not to forgive the punishment due my child for an offense, this does not mean that I refuse to forgive and not love him or her as my child.
The Lord will through punishment refine and remove the dross that keeps a person from receiving the truth of Christ our Saviour (which includes attributing His works to the Satan as these Pharisees did). The problem is that we in Christendom are fixated with this age and due to tradition have a difficult time imagining another age where sin and death are still being dealt with (1Peter 3:19, 4:6) among those who did not come to the Lord Jesus. It is my opinion that there will finally come in age where all sin and death will be finally reconciled and God will be “all and all†and every knee will bow and praise Him, because they want to.
Col. 1:20, “and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.â€Â

Grace, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

What do you mean by "orthodox"?

Dadof10,
Those views we do not challenge, because the majority of Christendom as simply assume it was true through out the age of the church.
Peace from dadof6 (Bubba)

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
God refusing to pardon the sin of “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit†in this age and the next does not imply His lack of mercy or compassion for the individual.

Mercy is given ONLY to those who ask for it, Bubba. If God has told us through Christ that there will be unforgiven sins in the next life, we can SAFELY assume that ALL will not enter heaven.

This is not a lack of mercy or compassion. Ask yourself this. Has God forgiven Satan? Why not? Why is Satan still in hell? Does this mean that God is not compassionate???

I hope you consider these questions carefully, as they will point out your point of view cannot stand scrutiny.

The Lord will through punishment refine and remove the dross that keeps a person from receiving the truth of Christ our Saviour (which includes attributing His works to the Satan as these Pharisees did).

Where does the Scriptures say that God will refine the wicked and remove the dross from them? Only those those who turn to God will be so refined. The wicked will refuse to be converted, and that is why their sins will NEVER be forgiven.

The problem is that we in Christendom are fixated with this age and due to tradition have a difficult time imagining another age where sin and death are still being dealt with (1Peter 3:19, 4:6) among those who did not come to the Lord Jesus.

I am not fixated with this age, Bubba. I am clearly pointing out a passage in Scriptures where God Himself says there will be an unforgiven sin, in the NEXT life to come. The problem you are having is applying your own personal views and telling us that God MUST act this way. Making God in your image... :roll:

As to sin and death being dealt with in the next age, I have no problems with the concept of Purgatory, Bubba. But to enter Purgatory requires some level of contrition. This is not dealing with the UNFORGIVEABLE sin, because Purgatory is indeed a reformative fire. All people will not enter this reformative fire because some will have an unforgiveable sin upon their souls, Bubba.

It is my opinion that there will finally come in age where all sin and death will be finally reconciled and God will be “all and all†and every knee will bow and praise Him, because they want to.

"Every knee" refers to every believer, not every living creature. The OT is full of testimony from God Himself that He will not accept such "worship" from the wicked. Of course, the reason why they are wicked is because they will not worship the Lord. The knee that bows is not the knee in hell, Bubba. It is the Church, whether on earth, in Purgatory (under the earth) or in heaven.

Col. 1:20, “and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.â€Â

Yes, those in hell will be reconciled with. They will endure eternal and everlasting separation from God, which is what they desire. Being reconciled with doesn't mean that all sins will be forgiven. Clearly, you have Jesus contradicting Paul, if that is YOUR interpretation.

Regards

 

[Rick W]

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


John 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.


John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.



I would consider this as torment, knowing but never receiving.

 

[francisdesales]

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


John 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.


John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Exactly. That ANYONE is in torment in hell (the devil or evil men awaiting the final judgment) defeats the idea that God will ignore the fact that He is Justice itself. People need to stop thinking with 21st century minds and look at the Scriptures and what we have received.

"be not conformed to this age, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your soul that ye may experience what [is] that good and well pleasing and perfect will of God" Romans 12:2

The thinking of this age states that sin is not really important, since God will give EVERYONE entrance into heaven in the end...

Regards

 

[brakelite2]

If one is entrenched in his OWN opinions and fears...then it is an uphill battle to convince...

Yes, I would conclude that you are no different in this matter.

When the church teaches anything contrary to scripture and threatens it's members with excommunication if one should should choose to accept the Bible above the church,as most of Christendom at present does by accepting the words of Satan (thou shalt surely not die) and preaches it still from the pulpit, then one can only conclude that one fears the church above the truth of God.

As an ex catholic I well know those fears, but they are overcome by trusting the scriptures and distrusting mortal man's interpretation of them.

Oh, you are an immortal man who interprets Scriptures? Or perhaps your pastor is an immortal man??? We are all mortal men interpreting the Scriptures. Please be aware that the promise of the Spirit is given to the Church as a Body, not as individuals to each interpret the Bible as they see fit. Common sense rules that out very quickly when one considers how all these so-called "spirit guided interpretations" differ from other "spirit guided interpretations".

I disagree. One thing that the protestant reformation gave us that is missed by so many is the Biblical truth that in Jesus we are all priests 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
And the Holy Spirit is promised to all as a guide to all truth and interpreter of biblical truth. Allow me to quote : 'The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority, not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or presept, we should demand a plain "thus saith the Lord" in it's defense.'

Like the Pharisees who boasted of their knowledge of the scriptures yet could not find Jesus in any of them. Yet Jesus is revealed on every page of the OT. In fact, the entire OT is a perfectly aimed arrow pointed right to Him.

Jesus is "revealed in every page of the OT" only by faith. It is not apparent in any other matter except for special pleading.

Yes. Like the woman who was healed of the issue of blood. Dozens of people were pressing upon Jesus on all sides, both touching and jostling Him constantly, but when one touched Him in faith, expecting something from Him, He knew and asked, "Who touched Me?" We all, as priests ,can now read the words of life and expect to hear from God and expect Him to lead us to truth.This He has promised us to do. We are not to trust man's understanding. So many today are reading the Bible , jostling Jesus if you will, but receiving nothing because they don't have faith; they are putting their faith in their churches and pastors ahead of what the Bible clearly teaches.

And in none of the replies has the originally proposed question been answered. Where does eternal torment as a dogma /doctrine of the church fit into the nature and character of God?

That has been answered. God is a passionate God as well as a merciful God. If men choose to turn to their own ways, He leaves them to their own devices - see Romans 1:18 and so forth. God is not a wishy-washy God of the 21st century mindset. You are trying to make God in your own image by saying He does "x" in the same manner that you would if you were God. But God's ways are not our ways...

No, it has not been answered. Deliberately keeping someone alive forever in order to torture them relentlessly in a burning hell has not yet been harmonised with any part of the nature of God. And it is not my image of God that it needs to be reconciled with. It is what the Bible tells us is the nature and character of God, and what Jesus showed to be the nature of His Father.
Putting it all down to quote; God is passionate unquote, does not cut it.
By saying that God would not torment people for eternity is not putting God into my own image. But saying He will punish or torment people eternally is far closer to the image that a man would create.

In a previous post it was briefly suggested that it is a fruit of God's anger. If then the torment goes on forever, does that mean therefore that God's anger will never be satisfied, and will never be appeased? That God will stay angry forever?

You are thinking in time. God has no future and no past. He IS. Take your thoughts of God out of chronological time. Eternity is not a "long time". It is a timeless moment.

I don't have any idea what you are talking about. Maybe the seminary you attended can give a great explanation of your catholic philosophical understanding of eternity, but I prefer to read what the scriptures says. From my reading of our existence in glory we have a past and a future, we will remember the past and look forward to the future. Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD

If the scriptures point unerringly to Jesus, both old and new testaments , (and I of course believe they do) please show me where in the nature of Jesus belongs such a trait of character that can create eternal torment?

I am wondering about some of the actions of Jesus, such as clearing out the Temple. How could such a "loving" (love defined by "feel-good" "live and let be" attitude you appear to condone) Jesus do such a thing? Didn't He get the memo from the Father that people should just do what they feel is good and right and God will accept that??? :-?

You are making great assumptions on what I define 'love' to be. If you want to know what I believe love to mean, read my thread entitled "a two-fold challenge."

I will repeat my former challenges. Where in mercy is eternal torment? Where in love? Where in compassion? Where in grace? Where in righteousness? Where in holiness? Where in the justice?

Where is the justice of NOT punishing man who willingly refuses to follow God's commandments? Where is the righteousness in "live and let be"? Christ HIMSELF said that there is an unforgiveable sin. That is very clear to me that God will NOT FORGIVE EVERYONE...

Cry and complain and hand-wring all you like, but that is the bottom line. That is God's ways.

Again, you misjudge me. When did I ever say that God would not punish the wicked and disobedient? My challenge is to you to equate eternal torture with His character. Not punishment per se. I am totally convinced that God will indeed punish appropriately those who have disobeyed His commandments.

The tares are destroyed. The fruitless branches are destroyed.

Destroyed as in burnt. Not as in utterly eliminated from existence. The idea of being "destroyed by fire" is meant to be taken as spiritual punishment for those who refuse to obey God. The worm will gnaw at the person who will realize that he will never realize his purpose and happiness for which he was created - because of his OWN will and actions. The worm will burrow into his consciousness because it was his own fault. Scriptures use metaphor to explain the spiritual suffering that the damned will incur because they CHOOSE to disobey God. That will "burn" them.

Destroyed as in burnt? But not utterly eliminated from existence? Isn't that the whole point of putting something into a fire? Unless you are just cooking it. ? Why would God have any desire to immortalise the very thing He hates most? SIN!?

God has no more intention of retaining or perpetuating sin and wickedness forever than He would for a stick or piece of dead wood that can not bear any fruit.

A stick of wood is not made in the image and likeness of God.

After sin entered the world, man no longer retained His image and likeness either. One reason Jesus came was to restore that image. Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If we are already born into His image, what need to be further conformed? We are born in the image of the prince of this world, Satan.

Ask yourself why the angels that disobeyed God still exist. Why didn't God just destroy them instead of allowing them to suffer for centuries and centuries...

Why God did not destroy the rebels immediately (both angels and man) is for another thread.
But they are not in any fire now. They are very much alive and well and their influence and evil temptations are constantly all around us. Have you not read of the spiritual warfare we are engaged in? That they are reserved for punishment at a later time is evident from the scriptures. But in the meantime they still work their evil ways in the hearts and minds of man.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Your idea of mercy and justice is not God's idea, apparently. The evil angels sinned once and they were condemned to suffer from the beginning of time... At least we have the advantage of being forgiven - IF WE ASK. Some will NOT ask, and those will NOT BE FORGIVEN.

Regards

Might I suggest that God is not just? If He were just I would be on that cross instead of Jesus. If He were just I would have died already. God's sense of justice means that He takes the punishment instead of me. God's sense of mercy means that once I accept Christ, God looks upon me totally justified and as if I had never sinned. Is that man's idea of justice and mercy? Hardly. History has shown that man's idea of mercy is to burn unbelievers at the stake. Man's idea of justice has been shown to be to harry vast numbers of people through the wilderness until they either surrender in exhaustion and are then summarily executed, or tortured until they 'confess' their sins and heresy. Your church's over 1000 years of faith and practice in that area praise be to Jesus is now at rest. But what I greatly fear is the fact that the dogmas and teachings that brought about the inquisition and the massacre of millions in the 'name of God' are still entrenched in the writings and creeds of your church, and given any opportunity will quickly arise again. That you believe God can burn heretics forever in eternity,gives you licence, according to your theology, to burn them to death in this life.Maybe if your church had a more intimate knowledge and understanding of the mercy and grace of God your church would be more amenable to be the same.

 

[francisdesales]

When the church teaches anything contrary to scripture and threatens it's members with excommunication if one should should choose to accept the Bible above the church,as most of Christendom at present does by accepting the words of Satan (thou shalt surely not die) and preaches it still from the pulpit, then one can only conclude that one fears the church above the truth of God.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What does the Church teach that is "contrary to Scritpures"? Being saved by faith alone? Sola Scriptura? Perhaps you have forgotten that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, not your bible interpretation? Spare me the rhetoric, please. Your opinion of the Sacred Scriptures and how to interpret them is nothing more than YOUR interpretation.

One thing that the protestant reformation gave us that is missed by so many is the Biblical truth that in Jesus we are all priests 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

No kidding. And if you would have explored your former Catholic faith more fervently, rather than leaving because you didn't like the priest or some nun spanked you in first grade, maybe you would have read that the Catholic Church teaches the same thing that the Jews taught. We are indeed a priestly people as a result of our Baptism - but that does not preclude ministrial priests, who Christ works through in sacramental actions.

If you want the pertinent paragraphs of the Catholic Catechism, they are #784, 941, 1591, 1119 and 1546. They all talk about those Baptized in Christ as being priestly - in other words, we offer sacrifices to God as part of the Body of Christ...

Like the Pharisees who boasted of their knowledge of the scriptures yet could not find Jesus in any of them.

A non-sequitar, since I already have said we find Christ in the OT Scriptures...

And in none of the replies has the originally proposed question been answered. Where does eternal torment as a dogma /doctrine of the church fit into the nature and character of God.

It really doesn't depend on whether you or I understand it or not. Doctrines do not depend upon OUR understanding them. Christian doctrines are REVEALED. They are not intellectually argued by merely rationale thought. Otherwise, you can toss the Resurrection out the window, along with the Trinity. Our faith is revealed to us, and part of that revelation is that God will condemn those whom HE deems as unworthy of heaven to eternal fires - whatever that means, spiritual or physical.

If there is an unforgiveable sin, then we know everyone will not go to heaven. If there exists people in hell now, whether man or angels, then we know God punishes without expecting reformation. Eternity. What is it? Is it a really long time? No. It is timelessness. Perhaps this is your stumbling block.

Know this. God CONTINUES to punish Satan in hell since the beginning of time. How does this mesh with your 21st century view of a "loving and compassionate God"? Certainly, God is compassionate and loving, but to the wicked? You do not understand what "passion" is. Consider Jesus' passion when the Pharisees turned the Temple into a den of thieves. Holy anger is part of being passionately in love.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales wrote:
Where does the Scriptures say that God will refine the wicked and remove the dross from them? Only those those who turn to God will be so refined. The wicked will refuse to be converted, and that is why their sins will NEVER be forgiven.

Francisdesales,
I am surprised the moderators have not jumped in and cried foul, due to the UR content. In regards to the unpardonable sin, I believe there is at least a third age (1Cor.15:20-28; verse 24 “come†is not in original Greek) when the “end†age arrives, the kingdom is handed over to the Father. According to Rev.5:13 and Rev.15:4 and many Psalms would substantiate that those who bow down before the Lord is all encompassing and done freely (Phil.2:10).
The word for “torment†in the verses I will quote from is “basanos†(noun)- a touchstone to test purity of gold or silver. “Basanizoâ€Â(verb)- to test for purity or chasten by scouring or torture. Jesus uses this word when He tells the story of the uncompassionate servant: Matthew18:32-35;
32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
We see here that the Tormentors had charge of the servant only till the debt was paid. We read in Hebrews 12:11 that “no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yielded the peaceful fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby". Hopefully you can readily see that eternal torture is not intended.
The following is from a paper I printed from a UR site, but I didn’t print the author’s name. “People often think of eternal torment when they read of the “Fire and Brimstone†in the book of the Revelation, but throughout the rest of Scripture such language is used to describe the earthly destruction of the wicked (Isaiah 34:9, Psalm 11:6, Ezekiel 38:22). It is foolish to think that “Fire and Brimstone†will take on a new meaning in Revelations. Brimstone generally refers to sulphur, the Greek word for brimstone is “theionâ€Â, which in the Greek is also the word for “divineâ€Â. Sulphur is said to have been sacred among the Greeks, and was supposedly used in religious rituals for purification and consecration purposes. God’s breath is said to be as brimstone (Isaiah 30:33) and God Himself is spoken of as purifying fire (Malachi 3:2-3). Taking such things into account “lake of fire and brimstone†could very well refer to a place, state or means of divine purification.â€Â
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


John 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.


John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.



I would consider this as torment, knowing but never receiving.

It is not torment that is to be questioned, but a eternity of torment.
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales wrote:
Where does the Scriptures say that God will refine the wicked and remove the dross from them? Only those those who turn to God will be so refined. The wicked will refuse to be converted, and that is why their sins will NEVER be forgiven.

Francisdesales,
I am surprised the moderators have not jumped in and cried foul, due to the UR content. In regards to the unpardonable sin, I believe there is at least a third age (1Cor.15:20-28; verse 24 “come†is not in original Greek) when the “end†age arrives, the kingdom is handed over to the Father. According to Rev.5:13 and Rev.15:4 and many Psalms would substantiate that those who bow down before the Lord is all encompassing and done freely (Phil.2:10).
The word for “torment†in the verses I will quote from is “basanos†(noun)- a touchstone to test purity of gold or silver. “Basanizoâ€Â(verb)- to test for purity or chasten by scouring or torture. Jesus uses this word when He tells the story of the uncompassionate servant: Matthew18:32-35;
32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
We see here that the Tormentors had charge of the servant only till the debt was paid. We read in Hebrews 12:11 that “no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yielded the peaceful fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby". Hopefully you can readily see that eternal torture is not intended.
The following is from a paper I printed from a UR site, but I didn’t print the author’s name. “People often think of eternal torment when they read of the “Fire and Brimstone†in the book of the Revelation, but throughout the rest of Scripture such language is used to describe the earthly destruction of the wicked (Isaiah 34:9, Psalm 11:6, Ezekiel 38:22). It is foolish to think that “Fire and Brimstone†will take on a new meaning in Revelations. Brimstone generally refers to sulphur, the Greek word for brimstone is “theionâ€Â, which in the Greek is also the word for “divineâ€Â. Sulphur is said to have been sacred among the Greeks, and was supposedly used in religious rituals for purification and consecration purposes. God’s breath is said to be as brimstone (Isaiah 30:33) and God Himself is spoken of as purifying fire (Malachi 3:2-3). Taking such things into account a “lake of fire and brimstone†could very well refer to a place, state or means of divine purification.â€Â
Bubba

I apologize, you have me confused in this last post. Could you form your ideas more cohesively? You are jumping around all over the place and I can't keep up. Let's stick with the unforgiveable sin, rather than trying to generate a smoke screen with the rest...

I do not believe this subject is about arguing for UR. It is about whether the unforgiveable sin rules out the possibility. I certainly do not support UR.

If there is an unforgiveable sin, one that is not forgiven even in the life to come, then UR is done. Kaput. Trying to argue a "third age" is total desperation, Bubba. Let's look at the Scriptures...

Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy [against] the Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the [age] to come. 33Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by [its] fruit Matthew 12:31-33

There is no "third age" mentioned anywhere in Scriptures. And as Christ says above, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come" - NEVER forgiven. No matter how many ages you want to conjure up, the sentence clearly tells us that there is a sin that will NOT be forgiven at ANY time. The follow-up sentence confirms this interpretation. Either the tree is corrupt or not. Nothing about going back and forth and back again. The corrupt "tree" provides corrupt "fruit", and no provision is made for "reformative do-overs".


As to the "third heaven" it has nothing to do with a third age, but a level of heaven that Paul achieved while meditating. It probably refers to a level of contemplative prayer, not a "third age"! You need to accept that this "third age" is not what the Scriptures is teaching, and to reform your thinking in line to what the bible teaches, not trying to TWIST the Word of God to make Him approve of your theology.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

No, it has not been answered. Deliberately keeping someone alive forever in order to torture them relentlessly in a burning hell has not yet been harmonised with any part of the nature of God. And it is not my image of God that it needs to be reconciled with. It is what the Bible tells us is the nature and character of God, and what Jesus showed to be the nature of His Father.
Putting it all down to quote; God is passionate unquote, does not cut it.
By saying that God would not torment people for eternity is not putting God into my own image. But saying He will punish or torment people eternally is far closer to the image that a man would create.

Brakelite, I have not seen anyone on the "annihilation" side try to deal with the concept that God doesn't "send" us to Hell, we send ourselves there by our choices and actions. When you say (and keep saying) that God is responsible for "keeping someone alive forever in order to torture them relentlessly in a burning hell", you are misguided. We are responsible, not God. We are the ones who turn our backs on God and CHOOSE Hell, both here and in the afterlife. If we are choosing it, how can God be "unjust" for letting us have what we choose?

This is what we believe, so you can keep harping on this strawman idea not being in the "nature and character of God" all you want to but, until you deal with the above concept, you are simply kicking a STRAWMAN.

 

[St Francis]

Hello everybody.

My two cents:

1) I agree with the above poster that we send ourselves to hell by our own choices. If a person chooses to defy God, that is their choice. That seems fairly reasonable to me.

2) I believe that hell is eternal, because I believe the human spirit is eternal (or would that be immortal?). John Paul II explained heaven and hell well as states of being rather than places. And you cannot "annhialate" a state of being. Your eternal states of being are either in union with God or seperated from God.

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales wrote:
Let's stick with the unforgiveable sin, rather than trying to generate a smoke screen with the rest...

I was not “trying to generate a smoke screenâ€Â, I have nothing to hide. If you do not want talk about Hell as a place of remedial punishment, why challenge my thoughts?

"Where does the Scriptures say that God will refine the wicked and remove the dross from them? Only those those who turn to God will be so refined. The wicked will refuse to be converted, and that is why their sins will NEVER be forgiven.â€Â

The “here after†and what exactly goes on there, is at best from this side a mystery. We get glimpses, “no more sorrow, glorified bodies, celestrial city, and etc. We also have interesting glimpses, of those who have passed on before us whom Christ visited with the gospel, 1Peter 3:19 and 4:6: “ 3:19in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach†and “ 4:6for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit.†I think it is safe to say there is much mystery in the age or ages to follow, when we leave this physical life.
Now, back to “the unpardonable sinâ€Â, obviously you do not agree with my assessment, that just because one is going to be held accountable not only in this life but the next in regards to the punishment for this egregious act, it does not mean that they will someday not be part of the kingdom of God. Yet, 1 Peter 4:6 does say those that missed the boat, will “live according to God in the spiritâ€Â. Then we have Collosians 1:20; “and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.†This verse alone speaks to “all things†both in heaven and earth being reconciled, which would include Satan and even Hitler, such is the mercy and love of God. Then we have Revelations 5:13,
“and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'â€Â. Note that in the Greek literal translation “age of the agesâ€Â, certainly can include a third or more age. Let go back to 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (note verse 22, great UR verse!), 20And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, 21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead, 22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- 25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- 26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, 28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.†Now Francisdesales, be honest with the Scriptures, how does verse 23 and 24 read? I do not think I am extrapolating when I say there is at least 3 ages. If you can not accept this, it is OK, but I see great possibilities for the redemption of even those who attributed the works of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
Peace, Bubba
ps, It seems to me, that for a person to believe in a “Purgatoryâ€Â, that person would not have difficulty perceiving at least 3 ages. The age prior to going to Purgatory, the age of Purgatory and then the age with all others in the Kingdom of God.

 

[francisdesales]

I was not “trying to generate a smoke screenâ€Â, I have nothing to hide. If you do not want talk about Hell as a place of remedial punishment, why challenge my thoughts?

Saying that you are "generating a smoke screen" does not mean you have something to hide, but that you don't want to address an issue (the unforgiveable sin) and instead, post something with references to a different aspect of what we are discussing. You are again avoiding my question. I asked you to please stick to the unforgiveable sin and what it logically tells us - that all men will not be in heaven. If a sin is unforgiveable, this destroys the notion that all men will wind up in hell at some undetermined time, because God will not allow the unclean into heaven, as the Apocalypse of John states.

I would like to hear your defense of "all men will enter heaven" when the Scriptures say there is an unforgiveable sin without posting a bunch of other verses that do not address that. Remember, Christ says that this sin that NEVER will be forgiven...

If you really seek the truth, Bubba, you must learn to let go of your own notions that do not mesh with Sacred Scriptures. Hell exists and will be populated, even if we do not understand how we can mesh a "loving God" with a "God of justice and vengeance" simultaneously. As you note, we only have glimpses of the afterlife and what will happen.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
I think I have tried to answer your thought on the "unpardonable sin", what more do you want? Each verse I brought up was to support my notion of a eventual reconciliation of mankind, even those like the unpardonable sin group in the next age. You certainly do not have to agree with me, but I have been fair.
Bubba

 

[St Francis]

...I would like to hear your defense of "all men will enter heaven"...

Me too. Jesus specifically says that the road to hell is wide and many take it, while the road to heaven is narrow and few find it. That kind of teaching does not lend itself to the notion that everyone will go to heaven. :smt017

 

[brakelite2]

No, it has not been answered. Deliberately keeping someone alive forever in order to torture them relentlessly in a burning hell has not yet been harmonised with any part of the nature of God. And it is not my image of God that it needs to be reconciled with. It is what the Bible tells us is the nature and character of God, and what Jesus showed to be the nature of His Father.
Putting it all down to quote; God is passionate unquote, does not cut it.
By saying that God would not torment people for eternity is not putting God into my own image. But saying He will punish or torment people eternally is far closer to the image that a man would create.

Brakelite, I have not seen anyone on the "annihilation" side try to deal with the concept that God doesn't "send" us to Hell, we send ourselves there by our choices and actions. When you say (and keep saying) that God is responsible for "keeping someone alive forever in order to torture them relentlessly in a burning hell", you are misguided. We are responsible, not God. We are the ones who turn our backs on God and CHOOSE Hell, both here and in the afterlife. If we are choosing it, how can God be "unjust" for letting us have what we choose?

This is what we believe, so you can keep harping on this strawman idea not being in the "nature and character of God" all you want to but, until you deal with the above concept, you are simply kicking a STRAWMAN.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we are the choosers of our own destiny. I have no problem with that whatsoever.And yes, I also agree that it is our actions by which we are judged.
This does in no way however change the fact that once that decision is made to reject the offer of mercy shown us through Jesus our Saviour, and we are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years to receive whatever fate God has in store for those who have denied Him, it remains also a fact that God must give immortality to the wicked in order to be tormented for eternity.
Nowhere in the scriptures does it say any such thing. That the righteous receive immortality as a gift for having accepted Jesus is without argument. It is the hope of our salvation, and is repeated throughout the scriptures, both OT and NT. But nowhere does it say anything about such a gift? being given to the wicked. Thus in order to keep the wicked alive in order to torment them forever, God must work daily miracles upon millions of suffering people just for the sake of man's warped sense of God's justice.

The scriptures state clearly that only God is immortal! No-one else!!!!
The saved receive immortality as a gift. The wicked receive no such thing! Therefore the wicked die. Period. He who hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life.

Now about the strawman. Anything that tends to the misrepresentation of the character of God must be repudiated at whatever cost. The gross and vile belief that God's justice and anger with sin can never be appeased , and that it must continue without end, is a misrepresentation of the character of God of the most dangerous kind. And I can fully sympathise with atheists who reject God because of that teaching.

The cross is at the centre of everything we believe as Christians. Anything that is contrary to the cross must also be repudiated. Jesus paid the fullprice for our redemption. Now I know that you Catholics believe that purgatory and penance etc is also necessary. These beliefs fly in the face of God's provision for our redemption. Jesus paid the full price, nothing can be added to it. Jesus did not spend eternity in a burning hell. He died. Which the Bible clearly tells us is the wages of sin. Jesus paid the price of death. Nothing more, nothing less. And if we reject His mercy, we also must pay the same price. If you can show me any Bible text showing that the wicked are resurrected after the second death, then I will recant everything I have posted in this thread. Until then.....

 

[St Francis]

The gross and vile belief that God's justice and anger with sin can never be appeased , and that it must continue without end, is a misrepresentation of the character of God of the most dangerous kind.

I don't think that is what is being said. God will always forgive those who sincerely seek forgiveness. I don't think anbody would deny that. But what of the person who does not seek forgiveness? What of the person who essentialy says, "Ya, thats right God. I'm sinning and I'm gonna keep on sinning." What about that kind of person. God cannot forgive those who neither repent nor seek forgiveness. And there are many of them, some even who claim the title of "Christian."

Now I know that you Catholics believe that purgatory and penance etc is also necessary. These beliefs fly in the face of God's provision for our redemption.

No they don't. Aside from the fact that those issues have nothing to do with what is being discussed here, purgatory and penance are not "additions" to Christ's work, so the comparison is not applicable.