thethinkingrebel
Member
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Where's Heaven and where's Hell?
- Thread starter Classik
- Start date
Pizzaguy
Member
It is a waste of time to try to understand his posts.
Pizzaguy
Member
He ascended into the sky, beyond that, we don't know. If the physical is all there is, then God is a theory and not God at all.
I believe He can TAKE a form, that is, assume a form. But I strongly suspect that He has no form.
You are trying SO hard to personify God. I find THAT to be coming close to heresy. That makes us even!
thethinkingrebel
Member
No, we know where he is, seated at the right hand of the father.
God is spirit. The issue is, what is spirit? Also we try too hard to dehumanize God, when we are made in his image. I am not saying that he is anthropomorphic, but that through his grace we live, and to demote him to some pantheistic idea of him residing within this universe and not living in the third heaven as Paul describes is heretical. Its nothing against you.
God must be similar to us in some ways, or it wouldn't say "let us make man in our image" in the creation account. Also finally, its been good talking with you
God is spirit. The issue is, what is spirit? Also we try too hard to dehumanize God, when we are made in his image. I am not saying that he is anthropomorphic, but that through his grace we live, and to demote him to some pantheistic idea of him residing within this universe and not living in the third heaven as Paul describes is heretical. Its nothing against you.
God must be similar to us in some ways, or it wouldn't say "let us make man in our image" in the creation account. Also finally, its been good talking with you
westtexas
Member
Elijah, your answers always intrigue me. They are always focused on this life. Do you not believe in anything AFTER this life?
Westtexas
Jethro Bodine
Member
Hey, Westtexas, I almost made a post in this thread today about hell being 10 miles west of the intersection of hwy 60 coming from Amarillo and hwy 84 coming from Lubbock. How close does that put you to...well, you know...lol.
This thread reminded me of a post card I picked up at the place I'm referring to when I lived there many years ago, and it went something like this:
"10 miles from water...3 ft. from hell" or something like that, lol.
E
Elijah674
Guest
No sacrasm, and I was agreeing with the post! (anyhow
) But seeing that you mentioned it, what made you think as questioned? --Elijah
westtexas
Member
I worked in the Lubbock area for many years. I think it's a LOT closer than 3 ft.
I'm in Merkel now. Our little piece of Heaven on Earth. I live here and work the oilfields in the Odessa area.Westtexas
E
Elijah674
Guest
Sure do!
But the subject just asks about where is heaven & where is hell. I see Jer. 4:22-27 from just before Adam's creation until Christ comes again. (shortly!) And then 1000 yrs. has this verse 27 ones judging these ALL DEAD of earth except the ones who were kicked out of heaven's rebellion!
And where is Hell?? First we must see 1 Cor. 6:2-3 for what we are to take an active part in. ...
[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
And for me & this above judgement?? Surely my duty then can still be found yet today teaching & warning those lost ones so that they will not be lost! And if I really love Christ & His creation, 'i' will not only spend, but be spent, and as I see it the time is extremely short!
As Jer. 4 finds in verse 26-27 that at the Presence (Second Coming) of the Lord the whole EARTH shall BECOME DESOLATE! & verse 23-25 has NO MAN & NO HEAVENS.
And this EARTH shall remain this way until ALL OF THE SAVED COME AGAIN at the END of the 1000 years for the execution of the wicked who are to have a judgement as to their 'wickedness' to die the second death. This earth will be cleansed with fire, this is where 'hell will FINISH its contents forever'!
These will all then of had their resurrection to die accordingly, in their second death. Eccl. 12:13-14 + Luke 12:47-48.
It is then that Christ/God recreates a New Heavens & a New Earth wherein will be Eternal Rightousness.
Nah. 1:9 And Rev. 21 has the New City to then be located on & in this Newly Recreated Earth.--Elijah
Last edited by a moderator:
thethinkingrebel
Member
Lol. Elijah. I'm new to this forum, so the little quirks of each member are still fresh to me.
However, it was mainly the wink ;)
Its great to find another scripturally based believer. I say it again! Do not base doctrine on the words of others unless they are confirmed by the words of scripture. All bible translations should be assessed based upon how they fit with the original greek. IF words are there that have no reason to be such as "hell". These translations should not be considered accurate. They should at least be discussed without taunts and name calling.
However, it was mainly the wink ;)
Its great to find another scripturally based believer. I say it again! Do not base doctrine on the words of others unless they are confirmed by the words of scripture. All bible translations should be assessed based upon how they fit with the original greek. IF words are there that have no reason to be such as "hell". These translations should not be considered accurate. They should at least be discussed without taunts and name calling.
thethinkingrebel
Member
Sure do!
But the subject just asks about where is heaven & where is hell. I see Jer. 4:22-27 from just before Adam's creation until Christ comes again. (shortly!) And then 1000 yrs. has this verse 27 ones judging these ALL DEAD of earth except the ones who were kicked out of heaven's rebellion!
And where is Hell?? First we must see 1 Cor. 6:2-3 for what we are to take an active part in. ...
[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
And for me & this above judgement?? Surely my duty then can still be found yet today teaching & warning those lost ones so that they will not be lost! And if I really love Christ & His creation, 'i' will not only spend, but be spent, and as I see it the time is extremely short!
As Jer. 4 finds in verse 26-27 that at the Presence (Second Coming) of the Lord the whole EARTH shall BECOME DESOLATE! & verse 23-25 has NO MAN & NO HEAVENS.
And this EARTH shall remain this way until ALL OF THE SAVED COME AGAIN at the END of the 1000 years for the execution of the wicked who are to have a judgement as to their 'wickedness' to die the second death. This earth will be cleansed with fire, this is where 'hell will FINISH its contents forever'!
These will all then of had their resurrection to die accordingly, in their second death. Eccl. 12:13-14 + Luke 12:47-48.
It is then that Christ/God recreates a New Heavens & a New Earth wherein will be Eternal Rightousness.
--Elijah
Epic post. Respect brother.
jasoncran
Member
so when this ghastly huge size temple comes to the earth? the sun will be no more?
its a vision and in that context a verse in isiah 66 describes this and give some context.
a moon must be for the feasts and or also the shabat is done by sunrise and sunset. so which is it?
and here is also a description of isreal restoration
isiah 60
ok so it seems the bible just contradicted itself.
its a vision and in that context a verse in isiah 66 describes this and give some context.
a moon must be for the feasts and or also the shabat is done by sunrise and sunset. so which is it?
and here is also a description of isreal restoration
isiah 60
ok so it seems the bible just contradicted itself.
Classik
Member
E
Elijah674
Guest
'i' think that the bible has the correct understanding. It says that it is us whom are the trouble!
These of Jer. 17:5 ones come in all kind of 'flavors today, and are educated, huh?But never the less we are to have a NEW HEAVENS! (and their SUN, MOON, +! )
And that City?? This is where we COME TO WORSHIP GOD on His 7th Day Sabbath. And who needs the SUN there??? Here are a couple texts that are of interest to me. [HE WILL BE THE LIGHT THERE!]
Isa. 66:22-23 + also Isa. 65 for our homes in the country away from the Holy City.. verses 21-25
[17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[18] But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
[19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
[20] There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
[21] And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22] They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.;) (work!)
[23] They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24] And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
And Isa. 66
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
--Elijah
F
felix
Guest
How about Hell? :dunno
(Not that am planning to pay him a visit)
The word hell was used only in gospels.
[G1067 γέεννα geenna]
This is not actually a Greek word, but a real location in Israel with a Hebrew name.
The word geenna [γέεννα] is coined by two Hebrew words [H1516, H2011]
- H1516 גַּיא גַּי gay - valley, a steep valley, narrow gorge
- H2011 הִנּוֹם Hinnom - Hinnom
In short, hell in English which refers to geenna in Greek actually means valley of Hinnom.
So, hell = valley of Hinnom
What is all about valley of Hinnom?
This is the place where children of Israel used to burn their children and make them pass through fire as sacrifice to baal and other pagan gods.
References: 2Kgs 23:10; 2Chr 28:3; 2Chr 33:6;Jer 7:31;Jer 32:35
So, when Jews in Jesus time want to refer a place of terror, agony and burning of fire, they refer to valley of Hinnom or (valley of son of Hinnom).
When Jesus was referring to valley of Hinnom, I believe He was referring to lake of fire.
stovebolts
Member
I believe you misunderstood me. I said: In the OT, it was first named Sheol and pointed to the grave.
Wrong. Death and Sheol are not the same. Psalms 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave (Sheol): thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
According to dictionary.com, transliteration means:
( tr ) to transcribe (a word, etc, in one alphabet) into corresponding letters of another alphabet: the Greek word λογοσ can be transliterated as ``logos''
Thus, hell is NOT a transliteration of Sheol.
The word Hell comes from Norse Mythology and parallels in many ways the Greek Mythology of Hades. Hades was the brother of Zeus and ruled the underworld. Hercules even ventured into Hades. When the Bible was translated from Greek to English, the translators used words the local's could understand. Thus, they choose the word Hell, which again comes from Norse Mythology. You will notice that the translators also translated the inner depths of Hades where the most evil were placed also as Hell, when in fact, the greek word for this place which described the abode of Hades was actually called Tartarus. In Greek mythology, all souls went to Hades. This runs parallel to the Jewish understanding of Sheol and was referred to as Abraham's Bosom.
Again, this is not how the Jews of Jesus day understood Gehenna and by no means does it mean eternal punishment. Actually, the Jews understood Gehenna as a place where all souls went after they died. A good Rabbi could then visit Gehenna upon his death and retrieve souls. According to Scripture, final punishment takes place at the Lake of Fire, so if you want to get technical, hell and death's final destination is the lake of fire.
I agree that Gehenna is a physical location with a very robust past... More so than I'm willing to speak about at this time. However, I find it very intriguing that you place the lake of fire in the proximity of Gehenna. Very intriguing indeed. How do you come to that conclusion?
thethinkingrebel
Member
This is indeed correct. However Hell is nowhere to be seen. It isn't hell. Nothing of the current theology of hell exists in the word Sheol. No fiery torments, no demonic overlords torturing people. No endless consumption by worms etc etc. in fact, everyone goes to Sheol. in genesis Jacob knew that Joseph was in Sheol. He even talking of following Joseph there in mourning.
"All his sons and daughters tried to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. No, he said. I will go down to Sheol to my son, mourning. And his father wept for him." Genesis 37:35
Why would Joseph be in hell?
Hmm, death and Sheol are not the same? I will grant that death is seperate from Sheol, Sheol is the place where the dead are believed to reside. A place of waiting for the resurrection. There is no consciousness. Nobody is alive in Sheol. In fact if it were so, that there was consciousness in "Hell", this verse would not exist:
"But if the LORD brings about something unprecedented, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them along with all that belongs to them so that they go down alive into Sheol, then you will know that these men have despised the LORD. Numbers 16:30 [HCSB]
"and if a strange thing Jehovah do, and the ground hath opened her mouth and swallowed them, and all that they have, and they have gone down alive to Sheol -- then ye have known that these men have despised Jehovah." YLT
To answer your verse..I would read it: "You have kept me alive, that I should not enter the place of the dead".
Indeed Hell is not. Perhaps I used the word inaccurately, I meant that Hades is the word for Sheol in Greek.
You are espousing Greek mythology as if it has any relevance to Christianity. Hades is simply a word, a word understood bygreek speaking Jews. This is where I get somewhat annoyed, as the word hell carries connotations, so does hades. It doesnt mean that the jewish populus understood Hades as a places of torture. We can all agree that Hades the God of the underworld does not exist. We can also agree that Zeus does not either. So to believe that Hades is anything more than just a word used in place of Sheol to describe the realm of the dead, would be running away with the fairies.
"Matt 23:14 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men; for you dont enter in yourselves, neither do you allow those who are entering in to enter. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehenna as yourselves."
Matt 23:33 "You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of gehenna?"
Matthew 5:22b "Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire."
Matthew 18:9 "it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire."
Matthew 10:28 "And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna."
Luke 12:5 "but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him."
Rev 20:14 "and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;"
The lake of fire IS Gehenna, its the final punishment. As shown above.
E
Elijah674
Guest
There are all kinds of verses 'related' to OT & NT prophets for the wicked's total annihilation . Obad. 1:16, Mal. 4:1-4 & with David in psalms + Job in several places. And Jude is a type of repeat example in Jude 7. And who believes Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15???
And 1 Cor. 10:11?
[6] Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
[7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
[8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
And the END is not come yet!;) And Rev. 20:8-9 will find this a DONE DEAL! See Luke 12:47-48 for who it is who will suffer the longest? Then comes Nah. 1:9's FINISH!
--Elijah
jasoncran
Member
'i' think that the bible has the correct understanding. It says that it is us whom are the trouble!
But never the less we are to have a NEW HEAVENS! (and their SUN, MOON, +! )
And that City?? This is where we COME TO WORSHIP GOD on His 7th Day Sabbath. And who needs the SUN there??? Here are a couple texts that are of interest to me. [HE WILL BE THE LIGHT THERE!]
Isa. 66:22-23 + also Isa. 65 for our homes in the country away from the Holy City.. verses 21-25
[17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[18] But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
[19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
[20] There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
[21] And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22] They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.;) (work!)
[23] They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24] And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
And Isa. 66
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
--Elijah
its not a literal destuction of the sun and the moon and a temple that is what i meant. you just quoted me.
an no. those verses on the shabat are for the isrealites and these verses you quote pertain to isreal not the gentiles. so that means we need to look at that and see what the sages thought and also modern christians commentators. lately these seem to agree. funny thing aint it(im not talking about eg white or also schofield but adam clarke and matthew henry's era)