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Which Translation is the best.

It appears that scholarly people that I've encountered lately are choosing the ESV as the top overall translation.
 
You can say all you want about KJV not being right on... and that may will be fact....but it is and always will be the prettiest :sohappy


Except for all those names i cant say
 
It's interesting that the eclectic Greek text, which some modern versions are based on, depends on manuscripts which diverge from each other a great deal; more so that the Majority text, which the Textus Receptus broadly resembles.

I'm not King James Only. But I do like the King James, and use it.

Blessings.
 
Andrew Mason said:
It depends what you're looking for really. It's difficult to translate Greek and Hebrew into English perfectly, so each translation has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

KJV - obviously the wording can be tough sometimes, but remember it was written at the peak of the English language. Definitely read it with a dictionary next to you. If you look up every word you don't understand you will strengthen your vocabulary immensely (that pretty much goes for any translation, but especially the KJV).
NIV - great for beginners. I don't have much use for it beyond that. I'm grateful for the NIV as it was the version I used first as a teenager. Among st preachers and serious students it's referred to as "the Not Inspired Version." Just a light-hearted joke, so please don't get offended. ;)
NASB - the most literal translation. This is especially handy for the historical narratives of scripture along with the epistles. Not always the best for the wisdom literature/poetry and some prophetic passages.
NKJV - a very user-friendly version of the KJV. This is better than the NASB Bible for wisdom literature/poetry and some prophetic passages.
Amplified - can be an interesting resource as a study tool for looking at a verse from a different angle.

If you've read the Bible before and feel like you're in a rut, sometimes it can help to change up the translation for a season. The NLT and/or The Message can be good for this type of approach.

Hope this helps!
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for your post Andrew, I have discovered pretty much the same findings. I like what you say about "being in a rut" I have experienced that and did what you said, that is why I have so many different translations. I have never owned an NASB, perhaps I'll buy a paperback because you, sort of, recommended it.

I am intrigued by your group "Small Group Churches" I have, over the years, made it my mission to pastor only small churches, from "house" church to assemblies from 25 to 125 people. Once in Somerville, Maine, we reached 125 and we started another assembly in a town about 30 miles from us. My favorite has always been "house Church" It has always been the most spiritual with very dedicated believers and with folks coming to Salvation that have lasted.
 
I am intrigued by your group "Small Group Churches" I have, over the years, made it my mission to pastor only small churches, from "house" church to assemblies from 25 to 125 people. Once in Somerville, Maine, we reached 125 and we started another assembly in a town about 30 miles from us. My favorite has always been "house Church" It has always been the most spiritual with very dedicated believers and with folks coming to Salvation that have lasted.[/quote]

Love your mission and story! Thanks!
 
OhFarouk said:
It's interesting that the eclectic Greek text, which some modern versions are based on, depends on manuscripts which diverge from each other a great deal; more so that the Majority text, which the Textus Receptus broadly resembles.

Blessings.
Click to expand...

Here are the Greek texts used for the Textus Receptus. Six of them ranging from the 11th-15th century.

ManuscriptDateVon Soden Classification
(in modern terms)
1eapXIIe: family 1; ap: Ia3
1rXIIAndreas
2eXII/XIIIKx (Wisse reports Kmix/Kx)
2apXIIIb1
4apXV
7pXI/XIIOp18

Not only is 1r an Andreas manuscript rather than purely Byzantine, but it is written in such a way that Erasmus could not always tell text from commentary and based his reading on the Vulgate. Also, 1r is defective for the last six verses of the Apocalypse. To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done, but the result was a Greek text containing readings not found in any Greek manuscript -- but which were faithfully retained through centuries of editions of the Textus Receptus. This included even certain readings which were not even correct Greek (Scrivener offers as an example Rev. 17:4 AKAQARTHTOS).
The result is a text which, although clearly Byzantine, is not a good or pure representative of the form. It is full of erratic readings -- some "Caesarean" (Scrivener attributes Matt. 22:28, 23:25, 27:52, 28:3, 4, 19, 20; Mark 7:18, 19, 26, 10:1, 12:22, 15:46; Luke 1:16, 61, 2:43, 9:1, 15, 11:49; John 1:28, 10:8, 13:20 to the influence of 1eap), some "Western" or Alexandrian (a good example of this is the doxology of Romans, which Erasmus placed after chapter 16 in accordance with the Vulgate, rather than after 14 along with the Byzantine text), some simply wild (as, e.g., the inclusion of 1 John 5:7-8). Daniel B. Wallace counts 1,838 differences between the TR and Hodges & Farstad's Byzantine text (see Wallace's "The Majority Text Theory: History, Methods, and Critique," in Ehrman & Holmes, The Text of the New Testament in Contemporary Research, Studies& Documents, Eerdmans, 1995. The figure is given in note 28 on page 302.) This, it should be noted, is a larger number than the number of differences between the UBS, Bover, and Merk texts -- even though these three editions are all eclectic and based largely on the Alexandrian text-type, which is much more diverse than the Byzantine text-type.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The ALT3 or the ALTD(same version, different format) is the most updated English version of the Majority or Byzantine Text. A link to the maker of this version.
http://www.dtl.org/books/preview/altd.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
King James said:
Here are the Greek texts used for the Textus Receptus. Six of them ranging from the 11th-15th century.

ManuscriptDateVon Soden Classification
(in modern terms)
1eapXIIe: family 1; ap: Ia3
1rXIIAndreas
2eXII/XIIIKx (Wisse reports Kmix/Kx)
2apXIIIb1
4apXV
7pXI/XIIOp18

Not only is 1r an Andreas manuscript rather than purely Byzantine, but it is written in such a way that Erasmus could not always tell text from commentary and based his reading on the Vulgate. Also, 1r is defective for the last six verses of the Apocalypse. To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done, but the result was a Greek text containing readings not found in any Greek manuscript -- but which were faithfully retained through centuries of editions of the Textus Receptus. This included even certain readings which were not even correct Greek (Scrivener offers as an example Rev. 17:4 AKAQARTHTOS).
The result is a text which, although clearly Byzantine, is not a good or pure representative of the form. It is full of erratic readings -- some "Caesarean" (Scrivener attributes Matt. 22:28, 23:25, 27:52, 28:3, 4, 19, 20; Mark 7:18, 19, 26, 10:1, 12:22, 15:46; Luke 1:16, 61, 2:43, 9:1, 15, 11:49; John 1:28, 10:8, 13:20 to the influence of 1eap), some "Western" or Alexandrian (a good example of this is the doxology of Romans, which Erasmus placed after chapter 16 in accordance with the Vulgate, rather than after 14 along with the Byzantine text), some simply wild (as, e.g., the inclusion of 1 John 5:7-8). Daniel B. Wallace counts 1,838 differences between the TR and Hodges & Farstad's Byzantine text (see Wallace's "The Majority Text Theory: History, Methods, and Critique," in Ehrman & Holmes, The Text of the New Testament in Contemporary Research, Studies& Documents, Eerdmans, 1995. The figure is given in note 28 on page 302.) This, it should be noted, is a larger number than the number of differences between the UBS, Bover, and Merk texts -- even though these three editions are all eclectic and based largely on the Alexandrian text-type, which is much more diverse than the Byzantine text-type.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The ALT3 or the ALTD(same version, different format) is the most updated English version of the Majority or Byzantine Text. A link to the maker of this version.
http://www.dtl.org/books/preview/altd.htm
Click to expand...

Even if Wallace's statistic is accurate, the TR and Majority have more in common with each other than with an eclectic text based collectively on Alexandrinus, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus.
 
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Here's a list of JUST 200 of these changes. Why don't you go through this list and see how many have been changed in YOUR Bible? It might shock you!

1:25--(FIRSTBORN) is out. Speaking of the Lord Jesus.
5:44--(BLESS THEM THAT CURSE YOU) is out.
6:13--(KINGDOM, POWER, GLORY) is out.
6:27--(STATURE) is changed to span of life.
6:33--(OF GOD) is out. Referring to the kingdom--
8:29--(JESUS) is out. As Son of God.
9:13--(TO REPENTANCE) is out. Calling sinners--
12:35--(OF THE HEART) is out. Good treasure--
12:47--(VERSE IS OUT) About Christ's mother.
13:51--(JESUS SAID UNTO THEM and LORD) is out.
15:8 --(DRAWETH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH) is out.
16:3 --(O YE HYPOCRITES) is out.
16:20--(JESUS) is out.
17:21--(VERSE IS OUT). About prayer and fasting.
18:11--(VERSE IS OUT). Tells Jesus came to save.
19:9 --(LAST 11 WORDS ARE OUT). About adultery.
19:17--(GOD) is out. None good but (God).
20:7 --(WHATSOEVER IS RIGHT RECEIVE) is out.
20:16--(MANY BE CALLED BUT FEW CHOSEN) is out.
20:22--(BAPTIZED WITH CHRIST'S BAPTISM) is out.
21:44--(VERSE IS OUT) About Christ the stone.
23:14--(VERSE IS OUT) Woe scribes and hypocrites.
25:13--(WHEREIN THE SON OF MAN COMETH) is out.
27:35--(FULFILLED SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET) is out.
27:54--(THE SON OF GOD) is A SON of God.
28:2 --(FROM THE DOOR) is out.
28:9 --(THEY WENT TO TELL HIS DISCIPLES) is out.

And that's just in Matthew.. Here's Mark

MARK
1:1 --(SON OF GOD) is out in Williams, Godspeed, Panin, Nestle, New
World, Westcott & Hort.
1:14--(OF THE KINGDOM) is out. Jesus gospel--
1:31--(IMMEDIATELY) is out. The fever left--
2:17--(TO REPENTANCE) is out. Call sinners--
6:11--(MORE TOLERABLE FOR SODOM & GOMORRHA) is out.
6:16--(FROM THE DEAD) is out. John is risen--
6:33--(HIM) is changed to them.
7:8 --(WASHING OF POTS AND CUPS) is out.
7:16--(VERSE IS OUT) About having an ear to hear.
9:24--(LORD) is out. A believer called Him Lord.
9:42--(IN ME) is out. Little ones that believe--
9:44--(VERSE IS OUT) About fire not quenched.
9:46--(VERSE IS OUT) Where worm dieth not.
9:49--(EVERY SACRIFICE SHALL BE SALTED) is out.
10:21--(TAKE UP THE CROSS) is out. Jesus said--
10:24--(FOR THEM THAT TRUST IN RICHES) is out.
11:10--(IN THE NAME OF THE LORD) is out.
11:26--(VERSE IS OUT) If ye do not forgive, etc.
13:14--(SPOKEN BY DANIEL THE PROPHET) is out.
13:33--(AND PRAY) is out, or in italics.
14:68--(AND THE COCK CREW) is out.
15:28--(VERSE IS OUT) Scripture was fulfilled, etc.
15:39--(THE SON OF GOD) is A SON of God.
16:9-20--(12 VERSES ARE OUT) in some Bibles...

and so on and so on and forthwith..

http://biblebelievers.com/New_Eye_Opener.html

tob

*edit: Oops' almost forgot the most important part..

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/index.html
 
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turnorburn said:
Here's a list of JUST 200 of these changes. Why don't you go through this list and see how many have been changed in YOUR Bible? It might shock you!

1:25--(FIRSTBORN) is out. Speaking of the Lord Jesus.
5:44--(BLESS THEM THAT CURSE YOU) is out.
6:13--(KINGDOM, POWER, GLORY) is out.
6:27--(STATURE) is changed to span of life.
6:33--(OF GOD) is out. Referring to the kingdom--
8:29--(JESUS) is out. As Son of God.
9:13--(TO REPENTANCE) is out. Calling sinners--
12:35--(OF THE HEART) is out. Good treasure--
12:47--(VERSE IS OUT) About Christ's mother.
13:51--(JESUS SAID UNTO THEM and LORD) is out.
15:8 --(DRAWETH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH) is out.
16:3 --(O YE HYPOCRITES) is out.
16:20--(JESUS) is out.
17:21--(VERSE IS OUT). About prayer and fasting.
18:11--(VERSE IS OUT). Tells Jesus came to save.
19:9 --(LAST 11 WORDS ARE OUT). About adultery.
19:17--(GOD) is out. None good but (God).
20:7 --(WHATSOEVER IS RIGHT RECEIVE) is out.
20:16--(MANY BE CALLED BUT FEW CHOSEN) is out.
20:22--(BAPTIZED WITH CHRIST'S BAPTISM) is out.
21:44--(VERSE IS OUT) About Christ the stone.
23:14--(VERSE IS OUT) Woe scribes and hypocrites.
25:13--(WHEREIN THE SON OF MAN COMETH) is out.
27:35--(FULFILLED SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET) is out.
27:54--(THE SON OF GOD) is A SON of God.
28:2 --(FROM THE DOOR) is out.
28:9 --(THEY WENT TO TELL HIS DISCIPLES) is out.

And that's just in Matthew.. Here's Mark

MARK
1:1 --(SON OF GOD) is out in Williams, Godspeed, Panin, Nestle, New
World, Westcott & Hort.
1:14--(OF THE KINGDOM) is out. Jesus gospel--
1:31--(IMMEDIATELY) is out. The fever left--
2:17--(TO REPENTANCE) is out. Call sinners--
6:11--(MORE TOLERABLE FOR SODOM & GOMORRHA) is out.
6:16--(FROM THE DEAD) is out. John is risen--
6:33--(HIM) is changed to them.
7:8 --(WASHING OF POTS AND CUPS) is out.
7:16--(VERSE IS OUT) About having an ear to hear.
9:24--(LORD) is out. A believer called Him Lord.
9:42--(IN ME) is out. Little ones that believe--
9:44--(VERSE IS OUT) About fire not quenched.
9:46--(VERSE IS OUT) Where worm dieth not.
9:49--(EVERY SACRIFICE SHALL BE SALTED) is out.
10:21--(TAKE UP THE CROSS) is out. Jesus said--
10:24--(FOR THEM THAT TRUST IN RICHES) is out.
11:10--(IN THE NAME OF THE LORD) is out.
11:26--(VERSE IS OUT) If ye do not forgive, etc.
13:14--(SPOKEN BY DANIEL THE PROPHET) is out.
13:33--(AND PRAY) is out, or in italics.
14:68--(AND THE COCK CREW) is out.
15:28--(VERSE IS OUT) Scripture was fulfilled, etc.
15:39--(THE SON OF GOD) is A SON of God.
16:9-20--(12 VERSES ARE OUT) in some Bibles...

and so on and so on and forthwith..

http://biblebelievers.com/New_Eye_Opener.html

tob

*edit: Oops' almost forgot the most important part..

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/index.html
Click to expand...


200 differences from the KJV you mean.
 
I'm not King James Only, though I use the King James.

I think it's good to remember the New Testament textual progression: from manuscripts to printed Greek texts to translations made from them.
 
Yes King James the King James.. The King James bible has been under attack "by the devil" for a very long time. God has been under attack for a very long time "the devil again" We Christians are under attack everything near and dear to God is under attack and will be until that old serpent "the devil" is locked up for good and all. Jesus gave a warning to those that corrupt what he's said adding or subtracting its all the same to him your either for him or against him. If someone has deleted things from the bible we're supposed to be outraged not sympathetic its not debatable.

That's my opinion and it always will be..:)

tob
 
turnorburn said:
Yes King James the King James.. The King James bible has been under attack "by the devil" for a very long time. God has been under attack for a very long time "the devil again" We Christians are under attack everything near and dear to God is under attack and will be until that old serpent "the devil" is locked up for good and all. Jesus gave a warning to those that corrupt what he's said adding or subtracting its all the same to him your either for him or against him. If someone has deleted things from the bible we're supposed to be outraged not sympathetic its not debatable.

That's my opinion and it always will be..:)

tob
Click to expand...

I don't know who you were referring to, but my previous post certainly did not attack the King James (or you).
 
Wasn't directed it at you farouk, its the spirit behind that kind of thinking. Remember when Jesus rebuked Peter? Jesus loved Peter Jesus loves each and everyone of us but when Gods words are being twisted around to the beat of a different drummer somethings need be said..

tob
 
turnorburn said:
Here's a list of JUST 200 of these changes. Why don't you go through this list and see how many have been changed in YOUR Bible? It might shock you!

1:25--(FIRSTBORN) is out. Speaking of the Lord Jesus.
5:44--(BLESS THEM THAT CURSE YOU) is out.
6:13--(KINGDOM, POWER, GLORY) is out.
6:27--(STATURE) is changed to span of life.
6:33--(OF GOD) is out. Referring to the kingdom--
8:29--(JESUS) is out. As Son of God.
9:13--(TO REPENTANCE) is out. Calling sinners--
12:35--(OF THE HEART) is out. Good treasure--
12:47--(VERSE IS OUT) About Christ's mother.
13:51--(JESUS SAID UNTO THEM and LORD) is out.
15:8 --(DRAWETH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH) is out.
16:3 --(O YE HYPOCRITES) is out.
16:20--(JESUS) is out.
17:21--(VERSE IS OUT). About prayer and fasting.
18:11--(VERSE IS OUT). Tells Jesus came to save.
19:9 --(LAST 11 WORDS ARE OUT). About adultery.
19:17--(GOD) is out. None good but (God).
20:7 --(WHATSOEVER IS RIGHT RECEIVE) is out.
20:16--(MANY BE CALLED BUT FEW CHOSEN) is out.
20:22--(BAPTIZED WITH CHRIST'S BAPTISM) is out.
21:44--(VERSE IS OUT) About Christ the stone.
23:14--(VERSE IS OUT) Woe scribes and hypocrites.
25:13--(WHEREIN THE SON OF MAN COMETH) is out.
27:35--(FULFILLED SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET) is out.
27:54--(THE SON OF GOD) is A SON of God.
28:2 --(FROM THE DOOR) is out.
28:9 --(THEY WENT TO TELL HIS DISCIPLES) is out.

And that's just in Matthew.. Here's Mark

MARK
1:1 --(SON OF GOD) is out in Williams, Godspeed, Panin, Nestle, New
World, Westcott & Hort.
1:14--(OF THE KINGDOM) is out. Jesus gospel--
1:31--(IMMEDIATELY) is out. The fever left--
2:17--(TO REPENTANCE) is out. Call sinners--
6:11--(MORE TOLERABLE FOR SODOM & GOMORRHA) is out.
6:16--(FROM THE DEAD) is out. John is risen--
6:33--(HIM) is changed to them.
7:8 --(WASHING OF POTS AND CUPS) is out.
7:16--(VERSE IS OUT) About having an ear to hear.
9:24--(LORD) is out. A believer called Him Lord.
9:42--(IN ME) is out. Little ones that believe--
9:44--(VERSE IS OUT) About fire not quenched.
9:46--(VERSE IS OUT) Where worm dieth not.
9:49--(EVERY SACRIFICE SHALL BE SALTED) is out.
10:21--(TAKE UP THE CROSS) is out. Jesus said--
10:24--(FOR THEM THAT TRUST IN RICHES) is out.
11:10--(IN THE NAME OF THE LORD) is out.
11:26--(VERSE IS OUT) If ye do not forgive, etc.
13:14--(SPOKEN BY DANIEL THE PROPHET) is out.
13:33--(AND PRAY) is out, or in italics.
14:68--(AND THE COCK CREW) is out.
15:28--(VERSE IS OUT) Scripture was fulfilled, etc.
15:39--(THE SON OF GOD) is A SON of God.
16:9-20--(12 VERSES ARE OUT) in some Bibles...

and so on and so on and forthwith..

http://biblebelievers.com/New_Eye_Opener.html

tob

*edit: Oops' almost forgot the most important part..

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/index.html
Click to expand...
Firstly, as has been pointed out before, such an argument against non-KJV translations is circular; it's fallacious. Secondly, av1611.org is one of the worst "Christian" sites on the Internet.

tob said:
Yes King James the King James.. The King James bible has been under attack "by the devil" for a very long time. God has been under attack for a very long time "the devil again" We Christians are under attack everything near and dear to God is under attack and will be until that old serpent "the devil" is locked up for good and all. Jesus gave a warning to those that corrupt what he's said adding or subtracting its all the same to him your either for him or against him. If someone has deleted things from the bible we're supposed to be outraged not sympathetic its not debatable.
Click to expand...
And yet the KJVO position and the arguments they use do so much harm to the body of Christ and cause so much division, that one can only conclude KJVOism itself is not of God.
 
Free said:
that one can only conclude KJVOism itself is not of God.
Click to expand...

It may bring you to that conclusion all i said was that the King James version has been under attack from day one.. and said attack will continue until they either take away our bibles or establish a one world translation that the last generation can live with, which i believe is where this is all headed.

II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

tob
 
turnorburn said:
Free said:

It may bring you to that conclusion all i said was that the King James version has been under attack from day one.. and said attack will continue until they either take away our bibles or establish a one world translation that the last generation can live with, which i believe is where this is all headed.

II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

tob
Click to expand...
What they are talking about is whether the English of the King James 'corrects' the Greek of the original, as some KJVO proponents make out...
 
One of the reasons why the King James Bible has faced issues from almost Day One: After the Bible was translated (yet again) into English, James VI of Scotland/James I of England did not like the flow of the English words. He then hired various poets and playwrights to smooth out the words to make the Bible easier to read. It has been suggested over the centuries that William Shakespeare had his re-writes included in the King James Bible. King James was satisfied with the end result, and believed that the beautiful flow of scripture that matched closely (his opinion in the day) to the translation would make it a bible that the everyday reading person could enjoy on a daily basis.
 
AirDancer said:
One of the reasons why the King James Bible has faced issues from almost Day One: After the Bible was translated (yet again) into English, James VI of Scotland/James I of England did not like the flow of the English words. He then hired various poets and playwrights to smooth out the words to make the Bible easier to read. It has been suggested over the centuries that William Shakespeare had his re-writes included in the King James Bible. King James was satisfied with the end result, and believed that the beautiful flow of scripture that matched closely (his opinion in the day) to the translation would make it a bible that the everyday reading person could enjoy on a daily basis.
Click to expand...

James also didn't like the notes in the Geneva Bible, so the 1611 translators produced something that was more accommodating to episcopacy, albeit with a Protestant veneer. So the King James is substantially the work of Tyndale, though this for historical reasons was somewhat hidden.

Blessings.
 
James initiated a translation of the Bible into Scottish while he awaited the gain of the English throne. Once he had it verified that Elizabeth I was slowly slipping towards death, he re-assigned his transcribers to stop the Scottish translation and to focus on English. James viewed the Geneva Bible as more a heretic translation and poorly composed. Ethnocentrism at work there, presumably.

He did not see the Bible as a Roman church-only work of scripture. James had been raised protestant; yet, because of his parents, he also read & studied what he could of the Roman Church. However, he did not consider converting. He knew that he would run amok with his own nobility, and that it would forever prevent him from gaining the English throne after Elizabeth I's death.
 
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