Who are the 144,000?

[His_nee (Jeff)]

From what I understand you think the verse could also be talking about women being among the 144,000.

To me it is clear the verse is talking about men.

No, I pointed out that the parameter you used would not restrict it to men. So other criteria is needed to show that it is men only. (which I think is found in another verse in Revelation that calls them "sons", and while that doesn't always refer to males only, it most often does, and would probably limit these specific 144,000 to men. ) ("sons" in some contexts may by some inference or other cultural inclusion include daughters also without naming or mentioning them specifically; as in "they traveled with 12 of their sons to another country" may in some contexts mean that not only their sons but unspecified daughters went to another country with them. )

In Hebrew Scripture, I believe, often men are counted, but women and children are not, when referring to how many are in a camp, or on a travel, or whatever. The women and children are included in the activity or area, but not in the count.

 

[Kathi]

From what I understand you think the verse could also be talking about women being among the 144,000.

To me it is clear the verse is talking about men.

So only men will be the chosen 144,000?

 

[tacdon]

No, I pointed out that the parameter you used would not restrict it to men. So other criteria is needed to show that it is men only. (which I think is found in another verse in Revelation that calls them "sons", and while that doesn't always refer to males only, it most often does, and would probably limit these specific 144,000 to men. ) ("sons" in some contexts may by some inference or other cultural inclusion include daughters also without naming or mentioning them specifically; as in "they traveled with 12 of their sons to another country" may in some contexts mean that not only their sons but unspecified daughters went to another country with them. )

I understand what you wrote, but I don't agree with it. I believe it is sufficient evidence that it is just talking about men.

However, I'd liked to see the verse that calls them sons.

 

[tacdon]

So only men will be the chosen 144,000?

Yes, you are correct it will be male only.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Yes, it looks clear and simple, but if someone challenged it, it would require more evidence.

The reference to sons I think I saw in the commentary (a short one)
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Rev/Their-Identity-Qualifications

 

[tacdon]

Yes, it looks clear and simple, but if someone challenged it, it would require more evidence.

The reference to sons I think I saw in the commentary (a short one)
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Rev/Their-Identity-Qualifications

If it requires more evidence than that then I'm not interested in continuing a conversation with someone like that.

 

[Kathi]

If it requires more evidence than that then I'm not interested in continuing a conversation with someone like that.

Why do you think there will be no women who will be redeemed?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Not many are called to be teachers.
James 3
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
3 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, since you know that we will be judged more severely.

But for the few who are... ... .. .

2 Timothy 2
Amplified Bible (AMP)

2 So you, my son, be strong (strengthened inwardly) in the grace (spiritual blessing) that is [to be found only] in Christ Jesus.

2 And the [instructions] which you have heard from me along with many witnesses, transmit and entrust [as a deposit] to reliable and faithful men who will be competent and qualified to teach others also.

3 Take [with me] your share of the hardships and suffering [which you are called to endure] as a good (first-class) soldier of Christ Jesus.

4 No soldier when in service gets entangled in the enterprises of [civilian] life; his aim is to satisfy and please the one who enlisted him.

5 And if anyone enters competitive games, he is not crowned unless he competes lawfully (fairly, according to the rules laid down).

6 [It is] the hard-working farmer [who labors to produce] who must be the first partaker of the fruits.

7 Think over these things I am saying [understand them and grasp their application], for the Lord will grant you full insight and understanding in everything.

8 Constantly keep in mind Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [as] risen from the dead, [as the prophesied King] descended from David, according to the good news (the Gospel) that I preach.

9 For that [Gospel] I am suffering affliction and even wearing chains like a criminal. But the Word of God is not chained or imprisoned!

10 Therefore I [am ready to] persevere and stand my ground with patience and endure everything for the sake of the elect [God’s chosen], so that they too may obtain [the] salvation which is in Christ Jesus, with [the reward of] eternal glory.

11 The saying is sure and worthy of confidence: If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.

12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us.

13 If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.

14 Remind [the people] of these facts and [solemnly] charge them in the presence of the Lord to avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.

15 Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Why do you think there will be no women who will be redeemed?

Men, women and children will be redeemed. The 144,000 are martyrs specially called and chosen.


http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Rev/Their-Identity-Qualifications

In keeping with his practice of identifying certain figures he has seen by explaining who or what they "are" (1:19-20; 4:5; 5:6, 8; 7:14; 11:4), John now becomes more specific about the 144,000: These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes (v. 4). He defines the phrase redeemed from the earth more carefully by adding, "They have been redeemed from humankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found; they are blameless" (v. 4 NRSV; the NIV has purchased from among men). Such are their qualifications for learning the new song.

The phrase follow the Lamb wherever he goes confirms the impression of chapter 7 that the 144,000 are Christian martyrs, and that the "number" of the martyrs is now "complete" (6:11).

 

[Michael74]

The 144,000 are virgin Jewish males from the 12 tribes of Israel.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28 KJV

So does that include converts to true Judaism? That is, those who accept the Jewish Messiah Jesus, and obey the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[tacdon]

Why do you think there will be no women who will be redeemed?

I think there will be more than 144,000 redeemed. The 144,000 is something Jehovah witnesses sometimes speak of, are you a Jehovah witness or have you been talking to them?

 

[Kathi]

I think there will be more than 144,000 redeemed. The 144,000 is something Jehovah witnesses sometimes speak of, are you a Jehovah witness or have you been talking to them?

I am not Jehovah Witness.The Bible does say 144,00 and I tend to take the Bible literal.Of course I believe that the 144,000 will be the Jewish who will be redeemed during the tribulation.I am pre-trib so I believe that the Church will go in the rapture and that there will be a very large harvest of believers during the tribulation and that the Holy Spirit will remain at that time.

 

[tacdon]

Not many are called to be teachers.
James 3
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
3 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, since you know that we will be judged more severely.

But for the few who are... ... .. .

2 Timothy 2
Amplified Bible (AMP)

2 So you, my son, be strong (strengthened inwardly) in the grace (spiritual blessing) that is [to be found only] in Christ Jesus.

2 And the [instructions] which you have heard from me along with many witnesses, transmit and entrust [as a deposit] to reliable and faithful men who will be competent and qualified to teach others also.

3 Take [with me] your share of the hardships and suffering [which you are called to endure] as a good (first-class) soldier of Christ Jesus.

4 No soldier when in service gets entangled in the enterprises of [civilian] life; his aim is to satisfy and please the one who enlisted him.

5 And if anyone enters competitive games, he is not crowned unless he competes lawfully (fairly, according to the rules laid down).

6 [It is] the hard-working farmer [who labors to produce] who must be the first partaker of the fruits.

7 Think over these things I am saying [understand them and grasp their application], for the Lord will grant you full insight and understanding in everything.

8 Constantly keep in mind Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [as] risen from the dead, [as the prophesied King] descended from David, according to the good news (the Gospel) that I preach.

9 For that [Gospel] I am suffering affliction and even wearing chains like a criminal. But the Word of God is not chained or imprisoned!

10 Therefore I [am ready to] persevere and stand my ground with patience and endure everything for the sake of the elect [God’s chosen], so that they too may obtain [the] salvation which is in Christ Jesus, with [the reward of] eternal glory.

11 The saying is sure and worthy of confidence: If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.

12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us.

13 If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.

14 Remind [the people] of these facts and [solemnly] charge them in the presence of the Lord to avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.

15 Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.

I am not Jehovah Witness.The Bible does say 144,00 and I tend to take the Bible literal.Of course I believe that the 144,000 will be the Jewish who will be redeemed during the tribulation.I am pre-trib so I believe that the Church will go in the rapture and that there will be a very large harvest of believers during the tribulation and that the Holy Spirit will remain at that time.

I believe the 144,000 are just some of the people who will be saved during the tribulation period. The other people that are saved will be the ones who don't take the mark of the beast and it seems like all or many will beheaded who don't take the mark of the beast.

Just read through revelations again and see if there are more people than just the 144,000 that will be saved during the tribulation.

 

[Kathi]

I believe the 144,000 are just some of the people who will be saved during the tribulation period. The other people that are saved will be the ones who don't take the mark of the beast and it seems like all or many will beheaded who don't take the mark of the beast.

Just read through revelations again and see if there are more people than just the 144,000 that will be saved during the tribulation.

I agree

 

[Randy]

So only men will be the chosen 144,000?

In the same context only 12 apostles were chosen. OK 13 with Judas's replacement. The 12 foundations of the new Jerusalem are named after the 12 apostles of the lord. Whoever calls on the Lord will be saved. Most men won't be the 144,000 either. Almost like winning the lottery to be one of the 144k.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

hmmmmm......... remember they are martyrs, right, who willingly and joyfully followed the Lamb, and gave up everything for HIm ? ....... is that a prize you can press on towards ? (yes, to the faithful, by sheer grace also, btw)

 

[Kathi]

hmmmmm......... remember they are martyrs, right, who willingly and joyfully followed the Lamb, and gave up everything for HIm ? ....... is that a prize you can press on towards ? (yes, to the faithful, by sheer grace also, btw)

I think it is the ultimate goal for the Christian to sacrifice most of what this world has to offer for Him.I feel like a flower in the desert in this world.Look at all the evil in this world.Look at what our media and what our secular world has to offer and then look at the Bible and how we are to live.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Also, not just sacrificing what the world has to offer, but as Yeshua says "getting is not the way, self-sacrifice is the way, and I'll show you how". and He did. (and He does).

Matthew 16:24-26
J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
24-26 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to follow in my footsteps he must give up all right to himself, take up his cross and follow me. For the man who wants to save his life will lose it; but the man who loses his life for my sake will find it. For what good is it for a man to gain the whole world at the price of his own soul? What could a man offer to buy back his soul once he had lost it?

Matthew 16:24-26
The Message (MSG)
24-26 Then Jesus went to work on his disciples. “Anyone who intends to come with me has to let me lead. You’re not in the driver’s seat; I am. Don’t run from suffering; embrace it. Follow me and I’ll show you how. Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self. What kind of deal is it to get everything you want but lose yourself? What could you ever trade your soul for?

 

[tacdon]

Also, not just sacrificing what the world has to offer, but as Yeshua says "getting is not the way, self-sacrifice is the way, and I'll show you how". and He did. (and He does).

Matthew 16:24-26
J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
24-26 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to follow in my footsteps he must give up all right to himself, take up his cross and follow me. For the man who wants to save his life will lose it; but the man who loses his life for my sake will find it. For what good is it for a man to gain the whole world at the price of his own soul? What could a man offer to buy back his soul once he had lost it?

Matthew 16:24-26
The Message (MSG)
24-26 Then Jesus went to work on his disciples. “Anyone who intends to come with me has to let me lead. You’re not in the driver’s seat; I am. Don’t run from suffering; embrace it. Follow me and I’ll show you how. Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self. What kind of deal is it to get everything you want but lose yourself? What could you ever trade your soul for?

self-sacrifice is fine as long as it doesn't become a place of pride or an idol.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

"self" sacrificed , just as Yeshua said and says and is required , cannot by His meaning and definition be or become an idol.
and without self-sacrifice, there is not obedience to Yeshua nor abiding in His Word.