Who are the cloud of witnesses?

[Eugene]

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Is this not referring to those worthies of faith listed in Hebrews Chapter Eleven to name a few? v4 Abel, v5 Enoch, v7 Noah, v8 Abraham, v11 Sara, v20 Isaac & Jacob; and it goes on.

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one (Abraham), and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

When Jesus appears again, will we His sanctified appear with Him as a cloud?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Is this not referring to those worthies of faith listed in Hebrews Chapter Eleven to name a few? v4 Abel, v5 Enoch, v7 Noah, v8 Abraham, v11 Sara, v20 Isaac & Jacob; and it goes on.

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one (Abraham), and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

When Jesus appears again, will we His sanctified appear with Him as a cloud?

Amen Eugene,
I have called them the hall of famers and I believe that they were cheering Jesus on when He praraded satin and his defeated foes through hell.

 

[dianegcook]

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Is this not referring to those worthies of faith listed in Hebrews Chapter Eleven to name a few? v4 Abel, v5 Enoch, v7 Noah, v8 Abraham, v11 Sara, v20 Isaac & Jacob; and it goes on.

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one (Abraham), and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

When Jesus appears again, will we His sanctified appear with Him as a cloud?

My belief: depends if you are dead or not

1 Thess.4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that he sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP IN Jesus WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.
He is coming here to reign.
We will join them, when he gathers His Elect, those whom are worthy to reign with Him during the Millennium.Mark 13:26,27
Absent from the body, present with the Lord 2Cor.5:8
As Lazarus and the rich man.

Back to 1Thess.4:
We can not precede them, because they are already there.
When do we join them?
In verse 16 it states with the trump of God.
Which trump?
In 1 Cor.15:52 it states the last trump, the furtherest out.
The last trump, the 7th Rev.11:15, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ and He shall reign 4ever.
And give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, verse 18.

 

[Eugene]

My belief: depends if you are dead or not

1 Thess.4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that he sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP IN Jesus WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.
He is coming here to reign.
We will join them, when he gathers His Elect, those whom are worthy to reign with Him during the Millennium.Mark 13:26,27
Absent from the body, present with the Lord 2Cor.5:8
As Lazarus and the rich man.

Back to 1Thess.4:
We can not precede them, because they are already there.
When do we join them?
In verse 16 it states with the trump of God.
Which trump?
In 1 Cor.15:52 it states the last trump, the furtherest out.
The last trump, the 7th Rev.11:15, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ and He shall reign 4ever.
And give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, verse 18.

Hi Dear Sister dianegcook, and thanks for your response. I do understand your thinking on this, though I disagree a bit on the order. To me if there's a last trump, there must by necessity be prior trumps concerning the resurrection. As you have said, the dead must be there first, and I believe that for all ranks of the resurrection, and of course this cloud of witnesses must be those that are with Jesus already.

To bring it bit closer to our time, we know there was the catching up of those of the grave after Jesus' resurrection (Mat 27:52,53). Forward to the Lord's Day where John was caught forward to (Rev 1:10), he sees different ranks of believers round bout (Rev 4:4) the throne, and some in the midst of the throne with Jesus (Rev 4:6) prior to the tribulation, a great multitude a bit later coming out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14,15) standing before the throne, and the 144,000 shown with Jesus just prior to the reign of the man of sin. Now all these groups have the same order and that is according to
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (The cloud of witnesses to my thinking)
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[dianegcook]

Hi brother Eugene
Hope I helped you.
But, I know all don't have the same beliefs.
All shall keep seeking.
Have a good day

 

[dianegcook]

My belief:
Rev.1:10
John was taken in the spirit on the Lord's day, not the sabbath, but the day of the Lord.
2Pet.3:8-10
One day with the Lord as a 1000 years, and a 1000 years as one day. ( millennium)
But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night, in which there heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and THE WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.
God is a consuming fire.
As 3 in the furnace, did' t smell of smoke, all the evil rudiments will be burnt up.

My take on Rev;
John was told to write what he saw, Things that were, was and to come.
The seals are the knowledge of the trumps and vials that are to come. They are sealed in one's forehead, knowledge, to recognize the trumps and vials when they sound.
The 7 seals is the knowledge of the 7 trumps and 7 vials.
The trumps are the action of the 7 seals.
The 7 vials is the wrath being poured on the ones that are deceived by Satan, thinking he is Christ, and they worship him.
The great harlot. Rev.17:5
Upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon, (confusion) the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.
These are no longer a virgin bride, they are laid up with Satan.
Parable of their 10 virgins Matt.25:1-13
5 foolish
5 wise
The foolish had no oil (anointing)
They had to go where they sell and buy.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came.
Buy? Whom could buy?
Rev.13:17
No man could buy or sell, except they have the mark of the beast, in THEIR FOREHEAD.

 

[Eugene]

My take on Rev;
John was told to write what he saw, Things that were, was and to come.

To me that was the past, what is occurring now, and that to begin when Jesus takes His own throne in Rev 4:2.

Parable of their 10 virgins Matt.25:1-13
5 foolish
5 wise
The foolish had no oil (anointing)
They had to go where they sell and buy.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came.
Buy? Whom could buy?
Rev.13:17
No man could buy or sell, except they have the mark of the beast, in THEIR FOREHEAD.

An interesting thought, and of course the man of sin can't sell the Holy Spirit. That reminds me of Simon wanting to purchase the power he observed in Acts 8:18.

 

[dianegcook]

To me that was the past, what is occurring now, and that to begin when Jesus takes His own throne in Rev 4:2.

An interesting thought, and of course the man of sin can't sell the Holy Spirit. That reminds me of Simon wanting to purchase the power he observed in Acts 8:18.

My reference refers Rev.4:2 to Rev.1:10
The DAY OF THE LORD.
John had to write things in his future and time.
My belief anyway.
Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Kathi]

The millions of believers that have gone before us.

 

[ezrider]

I am surround by this cloud of witnesses before me. From Noah, to Abraham and the saints of old. Joseph and Pharaoh, Moses and Joshua through the Judges and the Prophet. From King Saul to King David and all the kings beyond. They all share with me their witness and the testimony of their relationship with the Lord.

 

[Edward]

I almost started this thread a week or so ago, same question. This cloud of witnesses is not described as Angels, so who else could they be but those who have died in Christ (in the flesh)?

This makes sense to me. I also suspect that the 'men in white linen' who are spoken of in scripture in different places are also men who have given up the ghost and went to heaven.

 

[4afaithfulone]

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Is this not referring to those worthies of faith listed in Hebrews Chapter Eleven to name a few? v4 Abel, v5 Enoch, v7 Noah, v8 Abraham, v11 Sara, v20 Isaac & Jacob; and it goes on.

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one (Abraham), and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

When Jesus appears again, will we His sanctified appear with Him as a cloud?

In Heb. 11:12, it is not talking about Abraham coming back from the dead, It is saying that since Sarah was barren, that Abraham could have no children and therefor his seed of his bloodline was dead. Ishmael was not God's doing, he is of the carnal nature, where Isaac was the spiritual son of the promise that the Seed would come being Jesus whom would make son's and daughters of all nations.

God has spared 7,000 OT saints and they are those who came out of their graves after Jesus' alive to this day. They are saved by grace and are the fulfillment of Ezk.37 or the dry bones. If you compare those who came out of their graves in the Earthquake at Jesus' resurrection, with the dry bones who in the Rattle and shaking are many of the OT saints. Once the debt was paid and the Spirit was available God put flesh and sinews on their dry bones that looked as if there was no hope. Yes, Abraham seen Jesus' day and looked forward to him saying, It is finished! The debt was paid and they were released. These 7,000 in 1 Kings 19:18, must be the same 7,000 souls as those in Romans 11:4, for once Jesus came, all must be born again, even Jews. So when it says,Even so then at this present time there is a remnant, it does not mean more, but that they are alive to this day.


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
KJV
1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
KJV
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

Ezek 37:3-14
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking[Earthquake], and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel[Reserved 7,000 OT saints]: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
KJV
Matt 27:50-54
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
KJV

 

[4afaithfulone]

My belief:
Rev.1:10
John was taken in the spirit on the Lord's day, not the sabbath, but the day of the Lord.
2Pet.3:8-10
One day with the Lord as a 1000 years, and a 1000 years as one day. ( millennium)
But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night, in which there heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and THE WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.
God is a consuming fire.
As 3 in the furnace, did' t smell of smoke, all the evil rudiments will be burnt up.

My take on Rev;
John was told to write what he saw, Things that were, was and to come.
The seals are the knowledge of the trumps and vials that are to come. They are sealed in one's forehead, knowledge, to recognize the trumps and vials when they sound.
The 7 seals is the knowledge of the 7 trumps and 7 vials.
The trumps are the action of the 7 seals.
The 7 vials is the wrath being poured on the ones that are deceived by Satan, thinking he is Christ, and they worship him.
The great harlot. Rev.17:5
Upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon, (confusion) the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.
These are no longer a virgin bride, they are laid up with Satan.
Parable of their 10 virgins Matt.25:1-13
5 foolish
5 wise
The foolish had no oil (anointing)
They had to go where they sell and buy.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came.
Buy? Whom could buy?
Rev.13:17
No man could buy or sell, except they have the mark of the beast, in THEIR FOREHEAD.

The unprepared virgins are not women of the fleshly kind. There are no genders in our spirit, they will be considered male virgins that are the holy body of Christ, the 144,00 holy ones. The virgins who were not ready and told to go and buy some oil, are believers who looked to man's understanding to reveal the Word to them, instead of God by His Spirit which is free for the asking.
Jesus told Peter that God had revealed to him the revelation of The Word, The Christ, not man. And that that is how the true church would be built. The church is not built upon Peter the man, but God's revealing His Word to those chosen. Many called, few chosen. Peter would be a part of the temple as a piece of the rock or a living stone.
Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
KJV

The birth of the son's of God, Manchild 144,000 will be birthed after the seven trump. They will be birthed to our mother heavenly Jerusalem and caught up to God's throne and the devil thrown down to earth for 3-1/2 yrs.
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
KJV
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead[spiritually dead], that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
KJV

 

[Gregg]

The millions of believers that have gone before us.

Amen!

 

[dianegcook]

4afaithfulone
Thanks for your response.

I know that the virgins are in a spiritual sense.
Just as the bride of Christ is in a spiritual sense, male and female in the flesh.

I do how ever disagree with you, on your take on Rev.12.
It goes through eons of time.
I believe in 3 world and heaven ages.
1st
When Satan guarded the mercy seat, then rebelled and wanted to seat on it.
2nd
This flesh age
3rd
The one to come.
Rev.12: The woman had a crown of 12 stars, this is mother Israel.
With child travailing in birth, a new age
The dragon is Satan, he drew the third of the stars. ( his followers whom rebelled with him)
He wanted to devour the child as soon as it was born.
Satan has always wanted to destroy the Christ seed.
This man child was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, Christ.
This child was caught up to God and His throne, Christ crucified.
Future, Michael will kick Satan out on to earth, defacto .
His spirit is here today, just as the Holy spirit is here today.
He comes down to persecute the seed of Mother Israel, and the saints, for 3 1/2 years ( the trib)
Out of his mouth water as a flood to try to carry them away. ( a flood of lies, deceive)
As the days of Noah: what was going on?
Gen.6:
The sons of God ( fallen angels) came unto to daughters of men, and took wives.
There were Giants in the earth in those days and after that, when the sons of God came unto the daughters of men and bare children to them, mighty men, men of old, men of renown. ( Nephilim)
As the giant Goliath.
The fallen angels are coming back, as stated in Rev.12:9
The flood lasted 5 months, I believe the trib. Has been shortened to that.
Rev.9:5 confirms this.

 

[dianegcook]

Kathi
Amen, simply put, lol.