Who are the Seven Churches?

[Adullam]

According to Watchman Nee...it is Thyatira that represents the Catholic church. The protestant churches are Sardis.

I see the church od Philadelphia as the community churches...Moravians, Amish etc....

The present modern churches are Laodicea.

It should be noted that the first 3 churches in Revelation do not contain the "he who overcomes and keeps My deeds to the end..." signifying that only the last 4 churches continue on till Jesus returns.

 

[Stormcrow]

The seven churches in Revelation are literal churches.

As were all the churches to which Paul wrote his letters (Stated for the benefit of others, Hammer.)

And Adullam: Watchman Nee is wrong about Revelation.

The present modern churches are Laodicea.

Demonstrably untrue, as I pointed out in these links:

http://www.christianforums.net/showt...550&highlight=

and here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showt...l=1#post607850

and here (can't forget this one):

http://www.christianforums.net/showt...l=1#post613111

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

The Catholic Church is most characteristic of Thyatira. The modern Christians most like Ephesus are those Baptists, including IFBs who reject the Spiritual gifts.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

I would be happy to correct you. You're wrong.

Paul's letters to the Seven Churches:

1. Romans
2. Corinthians
3. Galatians
4. Ephesians
5. Philippians
6. Colossians
7. Thessalonians

...were written to the same 7 churches of John. They represent the same churches figuratively.

How do you know both of Paul's letters and the Revelation's messages to the seven churches are presented to us in the same order as the churches were established? And, even if so, how do you know these aren't in chronological order just out of interest in putting them in chronological order, rather than because one set represents the other?



A "sect" representing "universal brotherhood" is an oxymoron. And, reading the message to the church of Ephesus in no way reminds me of the Catholic Church.

Preterists are often accused of being non-literal. But, Preterists are very literal, except when it comes to descriptions of supernatural events, such as the explicit symbolism in Revelation. Futurists are very non-literal, as you're demonstrating. Futurists want to take the symbols literally and the non-symboles figuratively. Very backwards.

The seven churches in Revelation are literal churches.

Futurists understand that Revelation 12 is Symbolic.

The Letters to the 7 Churches are first literla letter to 7 real Churches. But they obviously have implication beyond that or else why put them in God's word? How are they relevent to us living centuries after those 7 literal Churches are gone.

I believe their meant to be a measuring Rod, for use to compare our Churches to them and see which ones it has most in common with.

The idea they they also prophetically outline the Church Age is in an interesting theory that I entertain, but it's not for building Doctrine.

For those who take everything Literal BUT the Supernatural, read what Yeshua said to Sadduces, in terms of the Resurrection they where the Preterists of Yeshua's time.

 

[Hammer]

I believe their meant to be a measuring Rod, for use to compare our Churches to them and see which ones it has most in common with.

Right. There's no justification to see them as symbols of specific future churches or church ages. But, those messages to the seven churches contain teachings that we can apply to our own churches. Have we forgotten our first love? Are we losing faith in the face of persecution? Are we letting sexually immoral ideas into our churches? Etc.

There's much in Paul's epistles that were written to address specific circumstances and specific churches. We rightly take those as lessons for our own churches. And, we rightly don't imagine them to be symbolic code about the future.

For those who take everything Literal BUT the Supernatural, read what Yeshua said to Sadduces, in terms of the Resurrection they where the Preterists of Yeshua's time.

That passage, Luke 27-30, has nothing to do with the timing of resurrection. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, so the timing isn't relevant here. Even if the Sadducees thought the resurrection had already happened, Preterists would have been Futurists at that point in time. And, if this passage is about the timing of the resurrection, they would have been right to be Preterists, because Jesus would be saying that the resurrection occurred before Moses' time.

 

[Tri Unity]

How do you know ...Paul's letters and the Revelation's messages to the seven churches are presented to us in the same order as the churches were established?

I am not saying that Paul's letters are presented in chronological order; I am saying that he wrote them in chronological order - one at a time - one after the other. They were not all written at exactly the same time.

...how do you know these aren't in chronological order just out of interest in putting them in chronological order, rather than because one set represents the other?

I am not saying that Paul's letter to the church of Rome represents John's letter to the church of Ephesus. I am saying that the order of John's letters are poignant to their understanding. Most people who interpret the seven churches keep to this same order as is presented.

A "sect" representing "universal brotherhood" is an oxymoron. And, reading the message to the church of Ephesus in no way reminds me of the Catholic Church.

The sect of Rome became the representative teaching of the universal church under law - The Edict of Thessalonica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Thessalonica

The church of Rome started as a sect but it was granted authority over all churches by the emperor of Rome. This was very similar to the power given to the Pharisees by Rome. They started as a sect but became the voice of all Israelites after 70 AD.

The seven churches in Revelation are literal churches.

Where is your evidence for believing this. None of the early churches believed these seven churches were literal. On what authority do you contradict the earliest churches? Pointing to the socio-political phenomena is not evidence. Christ is talking to the church, not to the socio-political city. If you say that the reference is to the socio-political city, then this would require that the socio-political city is a symbol for the church. You are then guilty of claiming a symbolic interpretation.

 

[Tri Unity]

According to Watchman Nee...it is Thyatira that represents the Catholic church. The protestant churches are Sardis.

Thanks Adullam. Watchman Nee was a wonderful brother with many valuable revelations. His contribution is invaluable. I digress from Nee cautiously. Is the writing you refer to "The Orthodoxy of the Church", by Watchman Nee?

It should be noted that the first 3 churches in Revelation do not contain the "he who overcomes and keeps My deeds to the end..." signifying that only the last 4 churches continue on till Jesus returns.

The church of Ephesus has these words:

"To the one who conquers, I will permit him to eat from the tree of life that is in the paradise of God."

This is basically the same meaning as "he who overcomes."

The church of Pergamum has these words:

"To the one who conquers, I will give him some of the hidden manna."

Again, this is basically the same meaning as "he who overcomes."

 

[Tri Unity]

The symbolism of the seven churches of revelation is apparent once you realize that the entire NT was written in a formula of sevens.





John wrote to seven churches:

1. Ephesus
2. Smyrna
3. Pergamum
4. Thyatira
5. Sardis
6. Philadelphia
7. Laodicea

Paul wrote to seven churches:

1. Romans
2. Corinthians
3. Galatians
4. Ephesians
5. Philippians
6. Colossians
7. Thessalonians

There are seven letters to or from individuals:

1. Timothy
2. Titus
3. Philemon
4. James
5. Peter
6. John
7. Jude

There are seven letters remaining:

1. Matthew
2. Mark
3. Luke
4. John
5. Acts
6. Hebrews
7. Revelation

In short, the entire church is depicted by these seven churches. The seven churches of John are God’s churches over time and through history. The entire bible is written to these ones. The fact that God is able to elect and predestine seven church administrations (pillars) over the history between Christ’s two advents should not surprise anyone who believes in the sovereignty of God.


“Wisdom has built a house for herself, and set up seven pillars.” (Proverbs 9:1)

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

Different passages can have many layer of meaning. The Church Ages view I do see as valid, thing it it wouldn't if they where in any other order.

Saying it's about he Timing of the Resurrection is silly, oblivious only Futurists believe in a Literal Resurrection, but it clearly hasn't literally happened yet.

 

[Hitch]

I would be happy to correct you. You're wrong.

Paul's letters to the Seven Churches:

1. Romans
2. Corinthians
3. Galatians
4. Ephesians
5. Philippians
6. Colossians
7. Thessalonians

...were written to the same 7 churches of John. They represent the same churches figuratively.

Just as Paul's letters where written to the universal churches; so too John's letters were written to the universal churches. Paul's letters were written in chronological order; so too the 7 churches of John were written in chronological order to the churches who appeared chronologically in history. The first church of Ephesus (IMO) represents the Catholic Church. It was the first sect of christianity which represented a universal brotherhood. It had departed from the Apostolic writtings in order to establish its own doctrines, such as the Papacy; the worship of Mary; the sunday easter, etc. We all today fit into one of these seven church archetypes. We are all called "the church", we all have heresy, we all have Christ commanding us to repent.

Well thats worth as much as an all you can eat special at the lumber yard.

Now since you're correcting me please explain how the 'Man of Sin ' passage, if it is yet to transpire, had anything to do with those addressed.

The two churches which are not called to repent - Smyrna and Philadelphia - are exceptions due to circumstances. Smyrna, as an archetypal church, will be completely martyred early in the tribulation. They will experience a holocaust. They are not asked to repent because they will cease to exist. The Philadephian church are not called to repentance as these ones represent the christians from all denominations who have already repented. (IMHO)

Thessalonians tells us a bit more of the picture of what is to befall the churches of God in the future years as we await the return of Christ. All of the letters to the churches tell us this same thing in different ways.

Actually Jesus tells us what happens to churches;

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

 

[Hitch]

:biglol:toofunny:biglaugh
Bet Paul's kicking himself that he took all those missionary trips to real cities to convert real people and establish real churches when he could've just stayed in Damascus and written down all his "experiences" as "visions" for us.

Whatever was he thinking?!?

Seriously, of all the ridiculous things I've ever read on the web, I think that one tops them all.

This has a gooeyness that reminds of gnosticism.

 

[Tri Unity]

This has a gooeyness that reminds of gnosticism.

You are correct. Some of the comments made here are christo-gnostic. Hyper Preterism and hyper literalism are gnostic beliefs. The sect of Roman Catholics spawned the beginning of christo-gnosticism. Since then christianity has been infused with gnostic beliefs. Today many cannot tell the difference between gnosticism and christianity because the gnostics quoted from the bible the same way as people do today. You need to examine the gnostic beliefs in full to know whether or not you are a carrier of this disease - the "doctrine of the Nicolaitans" - which Christ hates. Because of widespread ignorance the christo-gnostics are still spreading this disease without being aware of it.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

Gnostics believed many things, allot that where wrong and some that where right. But only 1 wrong belif puts them squarely in conflict with true Christianity, the deniel that Yeshua was God in the Flesh.

 

[Tri Unity]

Gnostics believed many things, a lot that where wrong and some that where right. But only 1 wrong belief puts them squarely in conflict with true Christianity, the deniel that Yeshua was God in the Flesh.

This is an example of widespread ignorance. Gnostics did not all deny that Jesus was God in the Flesh. The very first usage of the term 'Trinity' came from the gnostic Valentinus, who was formerly a christian bishop. See, for instance, the Tripartite Tractate.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/tripart.htm

Being ignorant of the nature of gnosticism has allowed many of their teachings to drift into the church undetected. People have become "experts" on these subjects... often due to being boastful and proud of their knowledge, when really they know nothing at all about the subject. Many doctrines of gnostics have contributed toward polluting the well of truth.

A common gnostic behavior pattern was laughing and scoffing at christian teaching. This pattern is still practiced by christo-gnostics today.

:biglol:toofunny:biglaugh.

This scoffing behavior was not practiced by christians. It is an example of christo-gnostic fusion, and when it is observed it should instantly set off alarm bells of gnostic intrusions.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

The word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the doctrine i there from the OT.

Gnostics mean a different thing by the Trinity, to them the Logos manifests in the Kosmos, but it's not in the Flesh.

 

[Tri Unity]

The word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the doctrine i there from the OT.

Gnostics mean a different thing by the Trinity, to them the Logos manifests in the Kosmos, but it's not in the Flesh.

You are misinformed. Some gnostics believed your view - not many; most christo-gnostics believed in Jesus and the logos as a person.

Christo-gnostics were founded by Simon Magus (Acts 13). Simon was followed by Menander, Basilides, Carpocrates, Valentinus, Saturninus - and many many others. Each of these gnostics opened schools that were designed to write and preach a different gospel to confuse the integrity of the christian message. Many christian views have developed out of these early gnostic writings because christians are unaware of the history and the development of christo-gnostics within the early christian churches.

 

[Eugene]

Now for my question… what other views do people have for the seven churches, and what evidence and support do you have from both scripture and history for your view? Please state your position, Preterist, Historicist or Futurist (or other), followed by your rationale. I personally believe in the near future return of Christ, but I believe some things in the book of Revelation were speaking of the past; they also spoke of events in history; but they primarily speak of the future events surrounding Christ's return.

Hi Tri Unity, I am Futurist, and a Dispensationalist.

Starting point - Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him (Jesus), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He (Jesus) sent and signified it by his angel (Our fellow servant of Revelation 19:10.) unto his servant John.

Where was John? Revelation 1:9. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where was John taken? Revelation 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet. Was this Sunday as some would have us believe, or when Jesus receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2?

First vision point - Again Revelation 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet. John here is at the Lord's Day, hears Jesus voice as a trumpet from behind him and is given a description of the seven churches; it is actually one "The Church" in seven separate locations. John spends Revelation Chapters Two and Three describing their condition, and their rewards.

When is the Church age? At this very present time. It is also the "Times of the Gentiles" which will end also as Jesus puts down all rule and authority of usurping nations. Jesus has been given that authority in Matthew 28:18, And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth, but has not taken it yet. Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Second vision point - Revelation 4:1 then invites John upward to see things "Hereafter." This is from the starting point of the Lord's Day.

Before I even attempt to go further, please allow me to ask when the "Lord's Day" is.

 

[Tri Unity]

Second vision point - Revelation 4:1 then invites John upward to see things "Hereafter." This is from the starting point of the Lord's Day.

Before I even attempt to go further, please allow me to ask when the "Lord's Day" is.

You have started with accuracy; although some of your comments are ambiguous. You have side-stepped a clear definition of the seven churches. I will be interested to see how you finish. Please continue.

 

[Blev]

The seven churches were actual churches at that time in history. But I believe it is also symbolic of each individual today and how their walk with Christ is. They will fit into one of those categories.

 

[reba]

Eugene Thank you for being open about your beliefs... it does make for simplier conversation

...Hi Tri Unity, I am Futurist, and a Dispensationalist.

For some it will open the discusson for others, well they will know where to place the hammer...

seriously, thanks .reba