Who can handle the truth?

[watchman333]

In A few good men, Tom Cruise screamed at Jack Nicholson, "I want the truth! I want the truth!" And Nicholson answered, "You can't handle the truth!" I'm wondering how many of us really know the truth. The LORD questioned Job about how much he really knew.

Where was thou when I layed the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou has understanding. Who laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone therof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38.4

Poor Job got drilled by our Father! Naturally, Job had no remembrance of God creating the heavens or the earth for Job was a flesh man. But who were those morning stars, singing in harmony, and who were those sons of God, exuberant in their joy? They were US, of course, before being born of our mothers, and we were blissfully happy and content. This was before Satan's overthrow, the Katabole. Naturally, we cannot remember this either, because this was before being born again, begotten from above. Now back to my question. I wonder how many of us can handle these Biblical truths?

 

[wayseer]

I guess you are making the claim that you know this as truth.

 

[Knotical]

I guess you are making the claim that you know this as truth.

It appears that way, though with very little to no scriptural support to back up his "truth" I wonder where he will be going with this. Should be interesting.

 

[watchman333]

I'm not going anywhere with this. It is obvious to me that we were with the Lord prior to being born of our mothers. As our Beloved taught us, Marvel not that I say unto thee, ye must be born again. John 3.7 And no man hath descended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man, Which is in heaven. John 3.13 The point being, God told us, through Job, that we were with Him before the foundation (Katabole in the Greek) of the world. Not a big stretch here to believe our souls were created before conception in the womb, but you believe what you like, for if I have told you of earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell thee of heavenly things? John 3.12

It appears that way, though with very little to no scriptural support to back up his "truth" I wonder where he will be going with this. Should be interesting.

 

[Mike]

In my experience, the concept that we have always existed in spiritual form from the beginning of Creation is a Mormon doctrine. I've never heard this offered as a possibility within Christendom. You say it's obvious to you, and I wonder what makes it obvious with the scripture you've provided. My take is that God was chastising Job for having the audacity to level up with Him and judge His ways, so he puts things in perspective for Job. He's basically saying, "I created everything from nothing. You were not around when the angels rejoiced at my design.". From what I can see, He is saying the exact opposite of what you say is obvious to you.

Other than Mormon/LDS theology, I don't know who else holds the position that we were created in spirit and body long before the moment of conception. I think I need to hear more about what makes this so obvious to you before I comment further.

BTW, your verses cited were Job 38:4-7; not just Job 38:4. You've underlined verse 7.

 

[watchman333]

In my experience, the concept that we have always existed in spiritual form from the beginning of Creation is a Mormon doctrine. I've never heard this offered as a possibility within Christendom. You say it's obvious to you, and I wonder what makes it obvious with the scripture you've provided. My take is that God was chastising Job for having the audacity to level up with Him and judge His ways, so he puts things in perspective for Job. He's basically saying, "I created everything from nothing. You were not around when the angels rejoiced at my design.". From what I can see, He is saying the exact opposite of what you say is obvious to you.

Other than Mormon/LDS theology, I don't know who else holds the position that we were created in spirit and body long before the moment of conception. I think I need to hear more about what makes this so obvious to you before I comment further.

BTW, your verses cited were Job 38:4-7; not just Job 38:4. You've underlined verse 7.

Hi Mike. No, I am not a Mormon, nor anything else. If I must be labeled, I'm a Christian Levite, as Lord Jesus came into my life about 30 years ago. You pose a good question for I have always known that I came from God and will return to God, however, there is not alot of scripture to back that up, as you stated. The logic comes from scripture already stated, that we are all born again, which is to say, begotten from above in the Greek. Before they were born of Rebekah, God hated Esau and loved Jacob. God told Jeremiah, Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee. Then again, we have a Witness to these things, and I believe our path to and from God is declared unto us by our Beloved:

For Father Himself loveth you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16.27

For me, there is no other way to think about it. I hope that helps to explain Mike. Thanks for the comments.

 

[wayseer]

There is a difference between your experience that you have 'come from God' or having been 'born again' and the conclusion that you have therefore been hitherto in the presence of God previously and then for some reason have taken up domicile in your mothers womb.

Trying to turn metaphors into the Real causes no end of problems.

 

[King James]

Before they were born of Rebekah, God hated Esau and loved Jacob. God told Jeremiah, Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee. Then again, we have a Witness to these things, and I believe our path to and from God is declared unto us by our Beloved:

For Father Himself loveth you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16.27

The first two examples I quoted from you above. Doesn't God know the outcome of everything imaginable before he created it? Could he not have just known the future? Another option. Maybe that's just the case for these two people and that's it.

The third example I quoted from you above. Jesus always existed, or at least before this earth was created. It depends how you read into different scriptures. That would be another intersting topic on it's own manly to pull out all of the instances where it's talked about. Jesus only incarnated into a human 2,000 years ago. So he was with God before. Became a human. And returned to God. Just because this is the case for him, it surely wouldn't justify that is how it is for all of us.

 

[watchman333]

Hi King James. Thanks for the input, but it is obvious to me that our beloved Lord Jesus came to this earth, besides the stated reasons like destroying the devil (Hebrews 2.14) , to show US, His children, how to walk this earth in the flesh and get out of it with our scalps still intact. He is our great Teacher. What I am having trouble understanding is why we would want to believe our souls are created at the time of conception? As stated in Romans and Ephesians, many of us were CHOSEN before the foundation, the Katabole, Satan's overthrow, in the age before the flesh age. The Katabole, Satan's rebellion, is why we are going through this flesh age. If, as it is written in the book of Revelation, one third of us did not follow the devil then, this flesh age would not be necessary. I suppose these are truths, from a Levite, that are just too tough to handle, but I do thank you for your comments.

 

[King James]

I can handle anything. If the ideas you are proposing are true, I don't know. I don't see scripturally how that information would do as far as our purpose in this life, how it would change how we live, or the events that are going to happen. What else does this theory bring up? Reincarnation? If not, there must be a lot of souls yet to experience human life as so many are born everyday. So I guess tribulation couldn't happen until everyone has had a human life first. What about abortions?

 

[watchman333]

Hello again king James. These are not IDEAS I am proposing, these are Biblical truths, and they do not necessarily change the way we should lead our lives. We should be good, kind and as righteous as we can get in these flesh bodies in our walk before the LORD. So, believe Job, Jeremiah, Ephesians, Romans, John (and other books as well) or not. I simply wanted to point out some truths not commonly discussed. May the Lord bless you and yours.

 

[King James]

I guess the word IDEA was a poor choice of words to use for you. How about interpretation? So from your philosophy God can't see the future and the only way for Jesus to exist in spirit before he came to earth is for all of us to be the same way. Now that the bases are covered, a few more questions. If you don't care to answer them, I understand. I know not much of a Levite.

So if we existed in spiritual form before we become human, why do we have to bear the curse of what Adam and Eve did? We have to live as animals? We have to live this cursed life? We are born into sin? We are not from them. Are we then the fallen angels(maybe aside from the prophets) to be punished in this fashion?

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'll be born again in the resurrection the same way Jesus was.

As of right now, that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Last I looked, I almost knocked myself out when I ran into the wall, so I'm not a spirit being yet. Just born of the flesh.

 

[iLOVE]

So if we existed in spiritual form before we become human, why do we have to bear the curse of what Adam and Eve did? We have to live as animals? We have to live this cursed life? We are born into sin? We are not from them. Are we then the fallen angels(maybe aside from the prophets) to be punished in this fashion?

Study the book of "Job" for the answers to the "Why".

 

[reba]

Hello again king James. These are not IDEAS I am proposing, these are Biblical truths, and they do not necessarily change the way we should lead our lives. We should be good, kind and as righteous as we can get in these flesh bodies in our walk before the LORD. So, believe Job, Jeremiah, Ephesians, Romans, John (and other books as well) or not. I simply wanted to point out some truths not commonly discussed. May the Lord bless you and yours.

Watchman these are your ideas of Biblical truths.... Lets remember where we are.

 

[Deborah13]

"the sons of God"

These are the angels, not us.

 

[King James]

Study the book of "Job" for the answers to the "Why".

These were hypotheticals based on the OP's theory.

 

[watchman333]

I guess the word IDEA was a poor choice of words to use for you. How about interpretation? So from your philosophy God can't see the future and the only way for Jesus to exist in spirit before he came to earth is for all of us to be the same way. Now that the bases are covered, a few more questions. If you don't care to answer them, I understand. I know not much of a Levite.

So if we existed in spiritual form before we become human, why do we have to bear the curse of what Adam and Eve did? We have to live as animals? We have to live this cursed life? We are born into sin? We are not from them. Are we then the fallen angels(maybe aside from the prophets) to be punished in this fashion?

Hi King James. I appreciate that your curiosity is running wild, but forgive me, I cannot go into your questions in this forum for I have already gotten into trouble just by teaching that Adam & Eve got into trouble with God over sex! Let me ask you to switch over to my website where most of your questions are answered (just use my name with a .com added). You are bringing up some great questions for there is much more to our Father's Word than most people are taught. Thanks again.

 

[Guest]

I'll be born again in the resurrection the same way Jesus was.

As of right now, that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Last I looked, I almost knocked myself out when I ran into the wall, so I'm not a spirit being yet. Just born of the flesh.

the purpose of his resurrection is to be born of spirit in this lifetime. a person cannot enter holy land without being born of the holy spirit on this earth first. heaven is not defiled. the kingdom of god is in heaven, separate from this world. a person must be born of spirit on this earth before they die in order to see the kingdom of god. John 3:3

I almost knocked myself out when I ran into the wall, so I'm not a spirit being yet.

what does this mean?

 

[tim-from-pa]

the purpose of his resurrection is to be born of spirit in this lifetime. a person cannot enter holy land without being born of the holy spirit on this earth first. heaven is not defiled. the kingdom of god is in heaven, separate from this world. a person must be born of spirit on this earth before they die in order to see the kingdom of god. John 3:3

A more accurate term is begotten of the Spirit, like life in the womb, to be fully realized (birth) at the resurrection. No, I am very much of a flesh being. Without the resurrection, I would die, and that would be it. No man dies now and ascends to heaven. (John 3:13)

I almost knocked myself out when I ran into the wall, so I'm not a spirit being yet.

what does this mean?

It was a humorous take to mean I'm not in a spiritual, resurrected body yet.