Nathan
Member
Well you are some of the few I have known that believe this.
But be careful where you preach that (not), because the opposite that is what 99% of todays "pastors" use as a 'motivating factor' for walking down the isle. ;)
Sad.
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Well you are some of the few I have known that believe this.
But be careful where you preach that (not), because the opposite that is what 99% of todays "pastors" use as a 'motivating factor' for walking down the isle. ;)
Sad.
2
Nathan
Member
I just find it interesting that God uses a metaphor for that description of eternity. But I also understand that it goes hand in hand with the reason why Jesus used parables.
There is so much to learn. There is so much to our Great God and King.
Myself and another, Jewish guy, tried to describe 'eternity' to a girl we work with yesterday. That was fun!
There is so much to learn. There is so much to our Great God and King.
Myself and another, Jewish guy, tried to describe 'eternity' to a girl we work with yesterday. That was fun!
W
Who Says
Guest
Well you are some of the few I have known that believe this.
But be careful where you preach that (not), because the opposite that is what 99% of todays "pastors" use as a 'motivating factor' for walking down the isle. ;)
Sad.
That is for sure. 1 John 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
Maybe I ought to delete the joke I added to the end of that comment?
Do you think maybe they have any sense of humor about it?
W
Who Says
Guest
I just find it interesting that God uses a metaphor for that description of eternity. But I also understand that it goes hand in hand with the reason why Jesus used parables.
There is so much to learn. There is so much to our Great God and King.
Myself and another, Jewish guy, tried to describe 'eternity' to a girl we work with yesterday. That was fun!
That is an ecellent point!!! "I also understand that it goes hand in hand with the reason why Jesus used parables."
Yes, that is a touchy subject. It seems so easy for me to see that I often have difficulty understanding how they cannot see it.
Nathan
Member
I cannot say that I understand the joke myself. But thats taking it to the level that "flesh and blood" would be living eternally in hell, and at least the people who preach eternal torment do not believe in that. I understand thats not what you meant.
A
Alabaster
Guest
I do not believe that Christ's death brought sanctification to all men until they repent and embrace it. I believe that Christ clearly said that if we do not believe we die in our sins.
I do not believe we have an immortal soul. I believe we are given immortality to finish swallowing up death after we have completed our return to being holy as God is holy.
Therefore I do not believe that souls are literally tormented forever in a lake of fire in the sense that we think of torment. I believe that disobedient souls will not be alive to be tormented in the sense we today think of torment. I believe that as the word translated torment is the same word used of "jailers" (prison guards) in that day and time, it is only saying that the second death will be permanently confining, thus everlasting.
And I believe that the investigation of the smoke of their torment which ascends up forever and ever is the word for a touch-stone (a marker that they left remain on a site to tell what went on there).
I believe that Jesus was speaking of the everlastingness of that judgment of second death when he compared it to a garbage dump (Gehenna) that is the final resting place for lifeless garbage.
I believe that most humans do not approve of torturing animal's because humans have a basic inclination to love merely by virtue of having been created in God's image. I believe that the God of love I know would not torment anyone for eternity in the sense we think of torment today as we are not more righteous than he.
Yes, I believe it only a metaphor for everlasting confinement to a lifeless death (non-existence).
Humor me:
I suppose the wicked old lady I saw get cut completely in half from top to bottom as the result of the car accident she was in lives on in hell in two parts? Because it is not to worry, she is (All Right, now) and that which was (LEFT) to help her in hell's kitchen.
See, I can think logically, too!
What about the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth?
They have teeth!
The bible says that the wicked dead are resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment. They will be cast BODILY into the lake of fire.
E
Elijah674
Guest
The metaphor reality comes about by the Matt. 4:4 & 2 Tim. 3:16 'whole Eternal Gospel';) Did that help?
Well, let me just ask, if we are again to be as Adam before his fall, how old is Eternal life??
Even then, what is 100 years compared to the pre/flood 'vegetarian ones'? (;)) I thought that you guys would like that question??
Here is a good verse about that which I do like! Gen. 9:3-4 you can read, but here is verse 5
'And [SURELY] your blood of YOUR LIVES WILL I REQUIRE; at the hand of every beast WILL I REQUIRE IT], ..'
And how so??? You go study Gen. 11:10-27 +, even check out Abe in Gen. 25:7-8 at 175 years. That is quite a quick drop off from nearly the 1000 year olds of pre/flood ones! And your question of only 100 year olds of heaven would not even be any different than some vegans of todays lifespan.
_________
And the email's?? I still have not that worked out yet, but when they come through, most likely there will be a Noah's ark needed nearby??;)
The Matt. 4:4 & 2 Tim. 3:16 even + the way that Isa. 28:8-10 tells us to FIND 'REST' in knowing the Godheads DOCTRINE will [[ALWAYS]] explaine what a [Metaphor] or [Parable] is. [ALWAYS!!] NO?? It is the 'people' that do not understand what God means, such as the 3 Time Vision to Peter of Acts 10. (it is for us in print, and what do we still hear?? all sorts of babbling stuff!
But note what Peter stated in print.. 'Now while Peter [doubted in himself] what this vision should mean..' So the vision was what?? A metafore? It SURELY was not to be as taken to mean what one hears today, but why so?? Because of the above DOCUMENTED TRUTH! Matt. 4:4 +! And parables are another way that ones of today get (GOT!) lost! And lost both ways!
And the question of the 100 year old baby saint dieing? Nate, that will quickly go in one ear & out the other when ALL Scripture is used which is to be our daily Spiritual FOOD!;) Remember that it takes the whole trial 'testimony' to get the final verdict!
And Peter was with this Truth as well, 'at this' time period. Luke 22:32 + Heb. 13:8's ETERNAL GOSPEL! (note again the Acts 5:27-29 verses below)
The one that we need to understand is the Rom. 13 chapter that will be, as is, & will be repeated constantly to us with 'some' not understanding IT'S TRUTH! This side of the Eternal Covenant has nothing to do with whom one Worships as in the First table of the Godheads Law.
And Peter & ALL of the Apostals, did they UNDERSTAND THIS FIRST FOUR ETERNAL COVENANT COMMANDS ON WORSHIP TO GOD ONLY????? You better betcha! See Acts 5:27-29
W
Who Says
Guest
That is where Jesus was describing the spiritual torment of the then living Jewish leaders in that day. They weeped and gnashed their teeth on him from the dead spiritual estate they were found in due to failure to embrace Christ and rise to life from the dead. Even today when one that thinks they are an approved Christian finds out they are not, they weep and gnash their teeth from their as yet dead spiritual estate (not really yet having entered Christ and teaching a false Christ). They weep and gnash their teeth upon those preaching the truth to them. It is like a fiery torment to them to hear the truth.
If you would like to do a discussion of Jesus parables (including Lazarus and the Rich Man) I think that would be interesting for us all.
A
Alabaster
Guest
Just to finish my point, Jesus declares Judgment upon the wicked. It is a bodliy judgment.
Matthew 13:36-43 NLT
Parable of the Wheat and Weeds Explained
36 Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.” 37 Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. 38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. 39 The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.
40 “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!
W
Who Says
Guest
That is going on right now as we speak. And it is while these tares are being separated out of the true church of Christ and bound together in their bundles they yet stubbornly call churches, that they weep and they gnash their teeth upon any true messenger of God who seeks to help them see so that they may repent.
Look deeply into the word "parousia". It has by necessity both a royal arrival and a presence or dwelling with. It gets confused with Christ's coming to destroy the opposition to his kingdom which occurs later than it.
Christ is already here and present with his true church. Christ right now sits on the throne dividing the sheep from the goats. Christ's true church helps him to do this. Those goats are being set on his left. Their destruction comes later.
Many have missed Christ's arrival to his church which comes first, before he comes to deliver the wrath of God the Almighty upon the nations.
W
Who Says
Guest
James 5:1 "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you."
Joel 1:5 "Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth."
Psalms 35:16 "With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth."
Acts 7:54 "When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth."
Joel 1:5 "Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth."
Psalms 35:16 "With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth."
Acts 7:54 "When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth."
E
Elijah674
Guest
THE First Resurection of the Rightous come FIRST at Christ Second Coming & the Second resurection of ALL Wicked comes at the END of the 1000 years and will be in the same bodily form that they died with! (wicked & defiled!) And surely Christ tell's in Luke 12:47-48 who it is that will suffer the longest in this lake of hell/fire JUSTIFIED EXECUTION before they are GONE ETERNALLY as in Obad. 1:16
Just one thought. While being D-E-A-D they are being JUDGED. They are not in heaven! But only by their evil record Book's accurate recordings. Eccl. 12:13-14. When Christ comes at the start of the 1000 years (Second Coming) He brings His REWARD with Him. Rev. 22:11-12. We will take part in this EXECUTIONAL Judgement.
1 Cor. 6:2-3 And we do not want any part with that even with the [OPEN SIN] matters here on earth, huh???
W
Who Says
Guest
As the workers in a field gather out the weeds, what do they do?
They place them into piles along the edge of the field and set them on fire.
(That edge of the field is as being sat just outside of God's kingdom which is right here and now working among us, but just not time for it to be revealed to the world. That revealing only comes with God's destruction upon the wicked of this world. It will catch the world off guard.)
And as those piles burn, they keep separating out more weeds to toss on those burning piles.
That is a description of the true church cleansing itself under the watchful eye of Christ.
It is not the final judgment upon these tares. They may yet be saved from the fire if they will only humble themselves.
1 Corinthians 3:11 ¶For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 ¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 ¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 ¶Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
I like the way Weymouth New Testament words verse 15 there: 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any one's work is burnt up, he will suffer the loss of it; yet he will himself be rescued, but only, as it were, by passing through the fire."
The proper rendering of that third occurrence of the word shall in verse 15 is properly reflected as Weymouth New Testament renders the passage.
So we see that this burning need not be a bad thing. It is actually the love of God trying to break us down that he might rescue us into an honorable vessel.
Still, many do not receive it that way and so weep and gnash their teeth on the ones who are lovingly trying to rescue them.
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W
Who Says
Guest
THE First Resurection of the Rightous come FIRST at Christ Second Coming & the Second resurection of ALL Wicked comes at the END of the 1000 years and will be in the same bodily form that they died with! (wicked & defiled!) And surely Christ tell's in Luke 12:47-48 who it is that will suffer the longest in this lake of hell/fire JUSTIFIED EXECUTION before they are GONE ETERNALLY as in Obad. 1:16
Just one thought. While being D-E-A-D they are being JUDGED. They are not in heaven! But only by their evil record Book's accurate recordings. Eccl. 12:13-14. When Christ comes at the start of the 1000 years (Second Coming) He brings His REWARD with Him. Rev. 22:11-12. We will take part in this EXECUTIONAL Judgement.
1 Cor. 6:2-3 And we do not want any part with that even with the [OPEN SIN] matters here on earth, huh???
("THE First Resurection of the Rightous come FIRST at Christ Second Coming")
That statement is true but that is not his "parousia".
("& the Second resurection of ALL Wicked comes at the END of the 1000 years and will be in the same bodily form that they died with!")
That needs further investigation. The wicked who die at the end of this current world as Christ meets out God's wrath on the nations enter directly into that symbolic lake of fire forever more. These ought to not be confused with the resurrection of the unjust (unrighteous) at Acts 24:15. These unjust ones at Acts 24:15 are unjust yet as they have not yet completed their cleansing to holiness in Christ, but they have neither demonstrated themselves to be wicked as they try in Christ and therefore God continues their one and the same opportunity to obtain their salvation.
("And surely Christ tell's in Luke 12:47-48 who it is that will suffer the longest in this lake of hell/fire JUSTIFIED EXECUTION before they are GONE ETERNALLY as in Obad. 1:16)
Look at the context. It is just what I have described about Jesus parable in Matthew 13.
Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Obadiah 1:15 supports that this is while they yet live (before their destruction which comes only if they continue not to repent). This is the devistated land that they now dwell in as a result of the Locusts of Joel chapter 2.
("Just one thought. While being D-E-A-D they are being JUDGED. They are not in heaven! But only by their evil record Book's accurate recordings. Eccl. 12:13-14.")
Again, this is before they die their physical death in this world. They are spiritually dead yet confined under sin (or, even having been placed back to that confinement to sin due to lapse into unfaithfulness) and that is why and how they are being yet judged.
("When Christ comes at the start of the 1000 years (Second Coming) He brings His REWARD with Him.")
That is accurate.
("Rev. 22:11-12. We will take part in this EXECUTIONAL Judgement.")
This is a bit more complicated than that and involves the actual one thousand year reign.
("1 Cor. 6:2-3 And we do not want any part with that even with the [OPEN SIN] matters here on earth, huh???")
That is for certain.
("
") And that is cute
W
Who Says
Guest
Shouldn't we all ask ourselves that same question!!! :yes
It is one of a few reasons.
Fear and insecurity: If we are wrong about anything it is as if we feel like our salvation is in jeopardy because we feel that we are not as close to God as we thought we were. We need that snuggly feeling so much that we will not allow God to handle us a bit rough as he may at times need to do to teach us.
Pride: We may like to be right so much that we refuse to ever listen and resent anyone trying to get us to listen, matter not how lovingly they try. We resent God getting a little tough with us.
Lack of love: Don't want to hear the truth because we have selfish motives for wanting to believe what we believe. We are not there for the purpose of letting God get tough with us so that we can learn.
And I suppose there are more than that.
I have been those things. God had to break me down first.
W
Who Says
Guest
I think you will like digging into this one Nathan. You are not afraid of a challenge and that is why you grow spiritually as you do.
How can we prepare ourselves to know for sure that we understand Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man?
This is what man was meant to be like before he through sin, sullied the glory of that image. (1 Corinthians 11:7; Romans 1:22- 23; Genesis 1:26, 27)
Those who are first fruits in oneness of the body of the principal first fruit, who is Christ, are said (Romans 8:29) “…to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” (KJV)
In other words, Christ is being formed in the spirit of their personalities: Galatians 4:19 “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you” (KJV)
This is not an automatic thing as many believe: Romans 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (KJV)
1 Peter 2:21-23 “For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously” (ASV)
The ultimate goal of all this is the creation of the “sons of God” who will rule in the New Heaven to come, which rules over the New Earth. (Our current world’s governments are said to be ruling over us in this world’s heaven. (See Leviticus 26:18-25; Romans 13:1-5; Isaiah 34:4, 5; Romans 8:19, 21)
Jerusalem of the Old Law Covenant existed as a antitype (a contrasting prophetic foreshadow) of this kingdom by Christ and his body members. Once those body members have completed their transformation to Christ’s image, they will begin their eternal rule upon this earth at the very start of Christ’s millennial reign. This serves the purpose of bringing this entire earth and all that is in it back to the holiness of God over the course of that millennial reign.
Therefore it is reasonable to understand why the rulers in that Jerusalem of the Old Law Covenant were considered gods, viewed as if they like their millennial reign counter parts had so achieved that image as brothers of Christ, who is the perfect image of God. (John 10:34-35; Colossians 1:15 and 3:10; 2 Corinthians 3:18 and 4:4)
And this is what we see going on at Luke 16:1 and Luke 16:19
Luke 16:1 “And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.”
Not too awful many of us would disagree that the rich man of Luke 16:1 is Christ.
And we see at Luke 16:19 a composite of the antitypical rulers of the antitypical foreshadow, first century Jerusalem. This rich man is supposed to image the rich man of Luke 16:1 just as Christ's body members will be an image of Christ by the time they are revealed and begin to rule with Christ in that millennial reign.
Luke 16:19 “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:”
But what makes the contrast antitypical is this rich man’s love of himself so that he has not loved the people and done what Jesus said a minister (a servant) of God ought to do. Indeed the very word “minister” means “servant”.
Matthew 23:9-11 “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.”
With this pondered we are now ready to dig deeper in to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
And we should note here that Jesus gave this parable after telling his disciples that Old Law System and its Covenant was now passed away to be replaced by God’s kingdom. Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
How can we prepare ourselves to know for sure that we understand Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man?
This is what man was meant to be like before he through sin, sullied the glory of that image. (1 Corinthians 11:7; Romans 1:22- 23; Genesis 1:26, 27)
Those who are first fruits in oneness of the body of the principal first fruit, who is Christ, are said (Romans 8:29) “…to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” (KJV)
In other words, Christ is being formed in the spirit of their personalities: Galatians 4:19 “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you” (KJV)
This is not an automatic thing as many believe: Romans 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (KJV)
1 Peter 2:21-23 “For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously” (ASV)
The ultimate goal of all this is the creation of the “sons of God” who will rule in the New Heaven to come, which rules over the New Earth. (Our current world’s governments are said to be ruling over us in this world’s heaven. (See Leviticus 26:18-25; Romans 13:1-5; Isaiah 34:4, 5; Romans 8:19, 21)
Jerusalem of the Old Law Covenant existed as a antitype (a contrasting prophetic foreshadow) of this kingdom by Christ and his body members. Once those body members have completed their transformation to Christ’s image, they will begin their eternal rule upon this earth at the very start of Christ’s millennial reign. This serves the purpose of bringing this entire earth and all that is in it back to the holiness of God over the course of that millennial reign.
Therefore it is reasonable to understand why the rulers in that Jerusalem of the Old Law Covenant were considered gods, viewed as if they like their millennial reign counter parts had so achieved that image as brothers of Christ, who is the perfect image of God. (John 10:34-35; Colossians 1:15 and 3:10; 2 Corinthians 3:18 and 4:4)
And this is what we see going on at Luke 16:1 and Luke 16:19
Luke 16:1 “And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.”
Not too awful many of us would disagree that the rich man of Luke 16:1 is Christ.
And we see at Luke 16:19 a composite of the antitypical rulers of the antitypical foreshadow, first century Jerusalem. This rich man is supposed to image the rich man of Luke 16:1 just as Christ's body members will be an image of Christ by the time they are revealed and begin to rule with Christ in that millennial reign.
Luke 16:19 “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:”
But what makes the contrast antitypical is this rich man’s love of himself so that he has not loved the people and done what Jesus said a minister (a servant) of God ought to do. Indeed the very word “minister” means “servant”.
Matthew 23:9-11 “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.”
With this pondered we are now ready to dig deeper in to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
And we should note here that Jesus gave this parable after telling his disciples that Old Law System and its Covenant was now passed away to be replaced by God’s kingdom. Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
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Nathan
Member
This makes real sense. I know because I have been there before too. And probably am there right now if I would take an honest look at my heart.
Its those times that you can almost physically feel 'sick', for me its likened to a intense humbling; one of those times when you realize that you were wrong, you "did" something bad, and your dad takes you and disciplines you with a belt.
Those times are probably way out numbered by the times we have not come to that point of our "repentance" and the discipline just feels 'bad'. Like Hebrews speaks of.
But I see what your saying.
W
Who Says
Guest
Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
E
Elijah674
Guest
Elijah here:
Christ gives the facts that he only gave understanding to His diciples. All else had parables. So in the previous verses, (Luke 16:14) who was He also addressing? That is proof that it was a parable which many do not teach. (Matt. 13:34 + Mark 4:33-34)
Yet their teaching is not according to the Master's complet Words!
PS:
And do away with what??? See verse 31!
I suggest to play with fire will find one getting burnt!
Christ gives the facts that he only gave understanding to His diciples. All else had parables. So in the previous verses, (Luke 16:14) who was He also addressing? That is proof that it was a parable which many do not teach. (Matt. 13:34 + Mark 4:33-34)
Yet their teaching is not according to the Master's complet Words!
PS:
And do away with what??? See verse 31!
I suggest to play with fire will find one getting burnt!
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