Who created Satan?

[th1b.taylor]

Apologies. I thought there was an actual discussion. I'm always interested in where people get ideas from or how revelation is delivered.

I am also and when Free made the point I went to read the context and thought I had admitted he had made his case but that does not discount the other two direct references to the subject. Without the erroneous Isaiah passage my point still stands and I wanted to move on to them but I seem to have stepped to hard on toes.

 

[Edward]

Yes, it is worth discussing as people such as yourself believe that this small passage in Isaiah is speaking of Satan, when it clearly is not. So yes, the truth of what Scripture matters, at least to me.


chessman has beaten me to it. There is a vast difference between being a "light-bearer" and disguising oneself as an angel of light. Not to mention that "light" in 2 Cor. 11:14 is likely metaphorical for goodness and/or wisdom.

Oh I realize it's a disguise. Metaphorical too, I agree. He wants to help us, enlighten us...lol. It's prolly for the children ya' know, lol. He's very good at stealing stuff out of scripture, counterfeiting it. He's got the world believing that rainbows means one is gay or a gay sympathizer.

 

[chessman]

Ezekiel 28:1-2, 8-9, 11-13 (NASB) The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, “Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas’; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God— ‘They will bring you down to the pit, And you will die the death of those who are slain In the heart of the seas. ‘Will you still say, “I am a god,” In the presence of your slayer, Though you are a man and not God, In the hands of those who wound you? ...
Again the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
...
“You were in Eden, the garden of God; ...
​

And people wonder where Eden was located!

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2010/01/26/The-Biblical-Cities-Of-Tyre-And-Sidon.aspx

"Twenty mi south of Sidon, in the middle of a coastal plain, Tyre (called Sour in Arabic today) was constructed on a rock island a few hundred yards out into the Mediterranean (Ward 1997:247). In fact, the city took its name from this rock island. Tyre comes from the Semetic sr (Hebrew Sor, Arabic Sur, Babylonian Surru, Egyptian Dr,) meaning rock.​

​

Located at the foot of some of the Lebanese mountain’s southwestern ridges and near the gorge of the ancient Leontes River (the modern Litani), the rich and well-watered plain became the fortified island’s primary source or food, water, wood and other living essentials. Apparently the island was fortified first and called Tyre, while the coastal city directly opposite was settled later. It was originally called Ushu in cuneiform texts (Ward 1997:247) and later Palaetyrus (“old Tyre”) in Greek texts (Jidejian 1996:19)."​

Ezekiel 28:5 (NASB) “By your great wisdom, by your trade You have increased your riches And your heart is lifted up because of your riches—​

"The ancient world’s purple dye industry developed from extracting a fluid from a Mediterranean mollusk, the murex. Not only did the people of the Phoenician coast develop this industry, they specialized in shipping this very valuable commodity all over the Mediterranean world."

Ezekiel 28:7 (NASB) Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you, The most ruthless of the nations. And they will draw their swords Against the beauty of your wisdom And defile your splendor.​

"While Tyre seemed to withstand Nebuchadnezzar, it was not prepared for Alexander 250 years later. Although every Phoenician city to the north, including Sidon, welcomed Alexander, Tyre would only agree to surrender nominally to him. They would not allow him entrance to the city, which was exactly what Alexander intended to do. Not be denied, after only a seven-month siege of the island city, he did what no one else had ever considered possible. Utilizing stones, timber, dirt and debris from the mainland, Alexander constructed a causeway out into the Mediterranean. At last he reached the island, breached the city wall and slew or put into slavery the defiant Tyrians. An amazing feat, Tyre was changed forever."

 

[Edward]

2 Corinthians 11:14 (NASB) No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:14 (ESV) And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. ​

On the otherhand, the true light is Jesus:

Revelation 22:16 (NASB) “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” ​

Venus is a planet (named for the highest Roman goddess). In reality though, it merely reflects the light of the Sun. One might say it disguises itself as a star. But in reality, it's no more a star than Earth or Mars. Just like some kings of the Earth (Babylonia/Assyrian especially) liked to think of themselves, a claimed to be, a god. But in reality, they died like all other men.

Oh, like maybe Nimrod? I've heard that some say they're going to find his body and clone him back to life with his DNA or something like that, and he's the one that will call himself God in the end times. I'm not saying I believe that, I dunno. Just something going around.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Not to butt in on Free, but if you skip ahead to Ezekiel 31, you will find the Nations in the surrounding area all described as trees in the garden of God. This entire book is loaded with colourful language. The whole thing is themed, prophecy against nation and ruler alike. Literal and not literal at the same time.

hello Northman, dirtfarmer here

I do agree that the whole book is loaded with colorful language, but I don't understand "the garden of God" in verse 8 as a reference to the garden of Eden. It is my belief that it has reference to Egypt, but then in verse 9 Eden is mentioned.

 

[JLB]

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:12-16

This is a reference to Lucifer, the anointed Cherub, who was created perfect, but later was who was cast out of heaven,as Satan, the adversary.


7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Look, I conceded the point and you just hammered on, that is not intelligent, congenial conversation, that is it's my way or the highway. I admitted you were right and moved to the other two points and you followed with driving home the Isaiah passage I had already given over to you. That neighbor is anger, looking for a fight.

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

?????????????????????????? I don't understand why post #521 is directed to me.

 

[th1b.taylor]

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

?????????????????????????? I don't understand why post #521 is directed to me.

I was thanking you.

 

[Free]

I am also and when Free made the point I went to read the context and thought I had admitted he had made his case but that does not discount the other two direct references to the subject.

Please follow along, Bill.

My first argument was that "There is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer." Found here.

You replied "Most of Christianity disagrees. That will be evident in the truth that most translations say Lucifer".

I then showed how that was not the case.

You replied, "In Context the case can be made as you state it". And here you claim to have agreed with me. But then continued that same sentence with "but Lucifer, the Bright Morning Star was cast out of Heaven," which is the very thing you claim to have just agreed was wrong.

You even finished that post with "Allegorical? Yes and it is Lucifer, who is renamed Satan." But again, this is the very thing you now claim to have "admitted had made [my] case."

My whole point, my starting argument, which you addressed was that "There is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer." You claim to have stated I had made my point, but then go on to state that Satan was Lucifer, twice. That shows that you do not think I have made my case.

Without the erroneous Isaiah passage my point still stands and I wanted to move on to them but I seem to have stepped to hard on toes.

What point of yours still stands? I proved you wrong and you agreed but now you want to say your point still stands but you have made no point other than to try and show where I was wrong.

We did move on. I dealt with them. I replied, "Of course, but again, that has zero bearing on Isa. 14:12. What is worth noting is that you argue to the allegorical here but you won't let Isa. 14:12 be allegorical. Why is that?"

And now you are just contradicting yourself. Satan either was Lucifer or he was not, as I have claimed. Which is it?

 

[Northman]

hello Northman, dirtfarmer here

I do agree that the whole book is loaded with colorful language, but I don't understand "the garden of God" in verse 8 as a reference to the garden of Eden. It is my belief that it has reference to Egypt, but then in verse 9 Eden is mentioned.

Ahhh ok I think I understand. If you flip back to Genesis 2:8, "the garden of God" is actually in Eden itself. I won't pretend to know how big Eden actually was, but the garden was most definitely in it. Being that where Adam was placed, I don't think it would be a far stretch to consider the garden the choicest part of Eden. Sorta make sense or am I off base?

 

[Free]

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:12-16

This is a reference to Lucifer, the anointed Cherub, who was created perfect, but later was who was cast out of heaven,as Satan, the adversary.

This passage in Ezekiel is about the king of Tyre: Eze 28:12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty." (ESV)

Why did you leave out the first part of verse 12? That is very much a part of the context.

And if you read back a page or two, you will see that there is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer.

 

[Papa Zoom]

There is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer. This was dealt with in the early pages of this thread. Isaiah 14:12 is written to the king of Babylon and the word translated as "Lucifer" (in very few versions, perhaps only in the KJV), is haylel or heilel, and means "shining one" or "morning star." It is a reference to Jupiter or Venus--bright morning stars.

The verse has absolutely nothing to do with Satan.

I honestly did not know this. I of course researched a bit and was surprised to learn that the things I was taught regarding Lucifer when I was much younger are questionable at best. My go to sites for helping me understand difficult passages verify just what you say. Now my curiosity has kicked into gear.

 

[JohnDB]

Moderator Hat on:

This is one of the rules guys. Please let's keep this in mind:

• Above all, focus on the issue being debated. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.

 

[Jim Parker]

A plain reading of the text shows quite clearly that it is only speaking of the king of Babylon.

At one level, yes.
Scripture, especially prophesy, often has more than one level of meaning.

But, if we look for a specific answer in scripture to answer the question of Satan's origin, I believe we will come up empty-handed.

 

[Mike]

With all due respect...are we not to meditate upon the Word of God? (Joshua 1:8) To contemplate His Word.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
A verse we've read or seen quoted 1000 times. Literally thousands of times in scripture, the writers make statements testifying to the authenticity of God's Word. All scripture. We are made complete in it.

This is His final and complete revelation. It is incumbent on us not to add more to the text than the text provides. We can speculate that certain things follow (in between the lines, but we shouldn't make definitive statements from conclusions we've drawn where it is not said in scripture.

To "contemplate" scripture is to take in and internalize what He has given us; not to read past the words to our own conclusions based on what isn't said.

My two cents.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I was thanking you.

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

Ok thanks for the thanks and the explanation

 

[JLB]

This passage in Ezekiel is about the king of Tyre: Eze 28:12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty." (ESV)

Why did you leave out the first part of verse 12? That is very much a part of the context.

And if you read back a page or two, you will see that there is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer.

I appreciate your commitment to context, which is much needed when studying the scriptures.

However, just because the prophetic language starts out with one context about a time frame or subject, doesn't mean it won't change.

It is the language of context that shows us this very thing.

• Some Bibles even have a heading, to show when the subject has shifted.

Ezekiel 28 -

The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4 With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”

6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

9 “Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’”

• This is referring to a man.

• These next verse's are referring to an angel.

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:1-16


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

Please follow along, Bill.

My first argument was that "There is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer." Found here.

You replied "Most of Christianity disagrees. That will be evident in the truth that most translations say Lucifer".

I then showed how that was not the case.

You replied, "In Context the case can be made as you state it". And here you claim to have agreed with me. But then continued that same sentence with "but Lucifer, the Bright Morning Star was cast out of Heaven," which is the very thing you claim to have just agreed was wrong.

You even finished that post with "Allegorical? Yes and it is Lucifer, who is renamed Satan." But again, this is the very thing you now claim to have "admitted had made [my] case."

My whole point, my starting argument, which you addressed was that "There is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer." You claim to have stated I had made my point, but then go on to state that Satan was Lucifer, twice. That shows that you do not think I have made my case.


What point of yours still stands? I proved you wrong and you agreed but now you want to say your point still stands but you have made no point other than to try and show where I was wrong.

We did move on. I dealt with them. I replied, "Of course, but again, that has zero bearing on Isa. 14:12. What is worth noting is that you argue to the allegorical here but you won't let Isa. 14:12 be allegorical. Why is that?"

And now you are just contradicting yourself. Satan either was Lucifer or he was not, as I have claimed. Which is it?

I do not know why you're hung up on Isa. 14:12. I have admitted that I was all wet there when I confessed that I understood your case but then I stated that the other two did prove my statement. I can apologize for scripture 'til the cows come home without hailing them but that will never change the fact that I was wrong to have used Isaiah but that my point is still valid. This is my last post disrupting the flow of this thread. To everyone else I appologise for this display.

 

[Free]

I appreciate your commitment to context, which is much needed when studying the scriptures.

However, just because the prophetic language starts out with one context about a time frame or subject, doesn't mean it won't change.

It is the language of context that shows us this very thing.

• Some Bibles even have a heading, to show when the subject has shifted.

Ezekiel 28 -

The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4 With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”

6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

9 “Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’”

• This is referring to a man.

• These next verse's are referring to an angel.

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:1-16


JLB

Let's consider the larger context of Ezekiel 28. Starting in Ezekiel 26, we have a "Prophecy Against Tyre" (ESV title), and in Ezekiel 27, "A Lament for Tyre". So we see that the two chapters preceding were all about Tyre. Now we get to chapter 28 which contain a "Prophecy Against the Prince of Tyre" and "A Lament over the King of Tyre".

This "prince" and "king" could be the same person. It is also possible that one or both refer to Tyre itself, where the king is the embodiment and representative of his people. Regardless, any understanding of this passage cannot remove the fact that it is to the king of Tyre.

To say that suddenly the subject changes to an angel is to put one's interpretation into the text. Ezekiel is simply alluding to Eden as an analogy to the position and standing of the king of Tyre and his country and its people. If anything, Ezekiel had Adam in mind, not an angel.

 

[Free]

I do not know why you're hung up on Isa. 14:12. I have admitted that I was all wet there when I confessed that I understood your case but then I stated that the other two did prove my statement. I can apologize for scripture 'til the cows come home without hailing them but that will never change the fact that I was wrong to have used Isaiah but that my point is still valid. This is my last post disrupting the flow of this thread. To everyone else I appologise for this display.

I asked this but you did not answer: What point of yours is still valid?