Who created Satan?

[GodsGrace]

It seems to me that, while the subject is the king of Tyre, that the prophet is talking about Satan.
jim

Jim,
Some allusion can be made about satan, but that is not what Ezekiel is about.
Christ is prefigured at times because He was yet to come and then fulfilled the prophecies.
Satan already existed and scripture was not written to explain satan, which is why there is so little written of him. I'm sure you would agree that we should not read into verses what is not there.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Free Do you not realize Lucifer and satan are the same.

Free realizes a lot of things you apparently do not.

W

 

[smaller]

Free realizes a lot of things you apparently do not.

W

Yeah, he seems to think that the king of Tyrus was in the Garden of Eden and that the man was a cherub from Ezekiel 28.

Uh, not.

This little drill explains the devil's role in "all" flesh:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

The devil is also implicated in sin. 1 John 3:8. Not some sin. Sin.

Anyone who reads the scriptures and can not account for two parties IN MAN is not accounting properly. Satan is addressed IN MAN.

Everyone who reads about Adam and Eve and only sees them and doesn't see that Mark 4:15 applied to them is again, not accounting properly. They see only the person and not what happened to them, Satan's entry INTO their hearts to deceive them. It's quite sad to see how blind traditional christianity is in the account of the FALL of man, every blaming only Adam and Eve and their bad choices and NEVER seeing the entrance of Satan into their hearts to deceive them.

The entirety of the scriptures revolves around this PLANNED DILEMMA for the flesh of man. Human existence in the flesh is just as much about the judgment of Satan and his messengers as it is about MAN.

Ephesians 3:
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Who are these powers in heavenly places?

Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

All of these are demonic powers, of the devil. And it was God Himself who created them according to His Purposes in Christ.

But because believers can not see these things they relegate these important matters to the back burner.

The fact is EVERY UNBELIEVER we come across is INHABITED by devils who blind their minds to the Gospel. Think about that the next time you try to "reason" with someone about Jesus. We are not just engaging people. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 ALL speak exactly to this overlap between MAN and DEVIL in the flesh.

If any of you think the devil is all that interested in accepting the Gospel you'd be quite sadly mistaken. See what you are up against and you'll understand why we need HELP from God to witness of Christ to the unsaved.

Devils don't cough up their holds, their captives, easily. And they could care less what we have to say.

 

[JohnDB]

Yeah, he seems to think that the king of Tyrus was in the Garden of Eden and that the man was a cherub from Ezekiel 28.

Uh, not.

This little drill explains the devil's role in "all" flesh:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

The devil is also implicated in sin. 1 John 3:8. Not some sin. Sin.

Anyone who reads the scriptures and can not account for two parties IN MAN is not accounting properly. Satan is addressed IN MAN.

Everyone who reads about Adam and Eve and only sees them and doesn't see that Mark 4:15 applied to them is again, not accounting properly. They see only the person and not what happened to them.

The entirety of the scriptures revolves around this PLANNED DILEMMA for the flesh of man. Human existence in the flesh is just as much about the judgment of Satan and his messengers as it is about MAN.

Ephesians 3:
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Who are these powers in heavenly places?

Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

All of these are demonic powers, of the devil. And it was God Himself who created them according to His Purposes in Christ.

But because believers can not see these things they relegate these important matters to the back burner.

The fact is EVERY UNBELIEVER we come across is INHABITED by devils who blind their minds to the Gospel. Think about that the next time you try to "reason" with someone about Jesus. We are not just engaging people. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 ALL speak exactly to this overlap between MAN and DEVIL in the flesh.

If any of you think the devil is all that interested in accepting the Gospel you'd be quite sadly mistaken. See what you are up against and you'll understand why we need HELP from God to witness of Christ to the unsaved. Devils don't cough up their holds, their captives, easily.

Exactly what do you think a cherub is?
Can you please explain using scriptures?

 

[smaller]

Exactly what do you think a cherub is?
Can you please explain using scriptures?

Perhaps you can explain how the king of Tyrus was in the Garden of Eden for starters in Ezekiel 28?

Mitigating the role of the devil in the flesh with deceptions, divisions, temptations, spiritual captivity, internal evil and sin is the devils work.

You call it blameshifting.

I call it spiritual blindness to the obvious presentations in the scriptures.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, he seems to think that the king of Tyrus was in the Garden of Eden and that the man was a cherub from Ezekiel 28.

Misunderstanding Smaller.
Free understands, it's Tarniesh that doesn't.

 

[JLB]

You keep citing 1 John 5:18, thinking that makes believers "immune" from the tempter's internal temptations.

The devil can tempt all of us.

Tempting is not the argument. Not even close.

Your claim is Satan is "in" our flesh as Christians, based on your misinterpretation of 2 Corinthians 12:7

You also claim sin is the devil. You quote 1 John 3:8 as your claim.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning...1 John 3:8

1 John 3:8 says "he" who sins is of the devil, which of course refers to the person who sins... is of the devil.


2 Corinthians 12:7

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

First of all, a "thorn in the flesh" or "thorn in my side" is a Hebrew idiom, an expression similar to what we have today, like " that dude is a pain in my a***".

It denotes a source of irritation, or frustration.

You have taken, "thorn in my flesh" and "messenger of Satan" and combined this two expressions [one literal, the other non-literal] into one to mean Satan was literally in Paul's flesh.

This condition, was "unique to Paul", because of the abundance of his revelations, for the purpose of keeping Paul from being "exalted above measure".

With this concept in mind, you have applied it to every other scripture, and to every Christian, that "every Christian" has a messenger of Satan in their flesh.

This is not biblical:

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

The wicked one can not even touch those who keep themselves.


This truth is illustrated in the life of Job:

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. Job 1:8-10

Job was an upright man, who feared God and shuned evil. God had a hedge of protection around him and his household.


Those who walk with the Lord, like Abraham, who obeyed His Voice and kept His commandments and laws, who are upright and do good, and shun evil, are good examples of keeping ourselves... and the wicked one can not touch him.



James says to resist the devil and he will flee from you.

The devil was not "in" Paul's flesh.

There certainly was a messenger of Satan, sent to buffet him, which means to strike or beat him.

This of course does not mean there was a messenger of Satan "in" Paul's flesh.


Here is another scripture, that is interpreted through this same "mindset", whereby you "read into" the scripture that Satan is "in our flesh":

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

In your "theology", you teach that "every" Christian "has" both a vessel of honor and dishonor within themselves.

That's not what Paul is teaching us... not even close.

We ourselves are either a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor.

Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

This places the responsibility on the believer to utilize all the things we have been given that pertain to life and godliness, to rid ourselves of the ungodly lifestyle patterns that we once walked in, as children of the devil.

You refer to these as "parties", that there is both "parties" within each believer, in which one is saved [the person; a vessel of honor], and the other party [the devil in their flesh; vessel of dishonor] will go to hell.

This way, you teach that a person is never responsible or accountable to change or grow in Christ, repent or be cleansed, or to be transformed, as he is "saved", because it is the devil doing the sinning "in his flesh".

I have watched you teach this concept to people over and over on this Forum, and is is extremely deceptive.

Most people don't even understand what your implying.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

smaller
If satan was in our flesh, wouldn't that be possession?

It's not bad enough we have the sin nature as part of us,
you want us to have satan in us too?

W

 

[selihah]

-
Do you care to explain then how "Christianity" caused the devil and some angels to fall from Heaven?
I'l like to hear you explain that one, as "Christianity" didnt come into existence until Jesus came down here..
And if there is no devil and no demons, then who "tempted Christ" in the Wilderness?
And if there are no demons, then what did Christ 'cast out" of many?
And if Jesus in John 8:44, says that some are of their father the Devil, is Jesus referring to a Hebrew myth?

As I said above 'satan' is a hebrew word. In our bible satan simply means adversary and if Im not mistaken when used in the hebrew text biblically it is most always preceded by the diffinite article 'the' making it a title 'the adversary' or in hebrew 'ha satan'. In our text ha satan is simply used to describe someone for instance King David was a satan, the angel sent to prevent Balaam was a satan. God has even described Himself as a satan (adversary) who will sta d against my satan (adversary).

All your questions are answered in your book alone because it is only in your book do we read of such things. Satans biblical hebrew meaning has been changed making it into some type devil, evil god, who is out to take over the heavens and earth battling the Creator for the souls of men. In our book there is no other God or gods there is just Yehovah.

 

[GodsGrace]

As I said above 'satan' is a hebrew word. In our bible satan simply means adversary and if Im not mistaken when used in the hebrew text biblically it is most always preceded by the diffinite article 'the' making it a title 'the adversary' or in hebrew 'ha satan'. In our text ha satan is simply used to describe someone King David was 'ha satan', the angel sent to prevent Balaam was 'ha satan'. God even describes Himself as a satan (adversary) against my satan (adversary). And as far as the serpent in Genisis goes, its just a beast that God created.

Only in your book is the words meaning changed making it into some type devil, evil god, who is out to take over the heavens and earth battling the Creator for the souls of men. Very Babylonian.

Christian theology does understand the word to mean Adversary as you state.
I'd like to ask you about God creating the serpent. Is this in a general sense in that God made everything, or do you have specific scripture?

Wondering

 

[JLB]

smaller
If satan was in our flesh, wouldn't that be possession?

It's not bad enough we have the sin nature as part of us,
you want us to have satan in us too?

W

Yes ma'am it would.

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 1 Corinthians 6:19

Our body is God's Temple, not Satan's.

His perspective exalts the power of the devil over God.

Which is what the devil was kicked out of heaven for doing.



JLB

 

[selihah]

Christian theology does understand the word to mean Adversary as you state.
I'd like to ask you about God creating the serpent. Is this in a general sense in that God made everything, or do you have specific scripture?

Wondering

It is my understanding that Yehovah created the heavens and the earth and everything in it. As far as the serpent goes, for the last 3000 or so years I would say the majority understanding is that the serpent in Genesis is either a metaphor for a man who attempted to lay with another man's wife or simply a walking talking beasty serpent. I think too it is clearly written in Genesis that the serpent was a creation of Yehovah.

 

[JLB]

It is my understanding that Yehovah created the heavens and the earth and everything in it. As far as the serpent goes, for the last 3000 or so years I would say the majority understooding is that the serpent in Genesis is either a metaphor for a man who attempted to lay with another man's wife or simply a walking talking beasty serpent. I think too it is clearly written in Genesis that the serpent was a creation of Yehovah.

It's Satan, not some "other" man that tried to lay with Eve.

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

 

[selihah]

My point exactly you are using your book to descibe something to me that doesnt exist in our book. The only thing that makes the serpent stand out in our book is that was more subtle than the other beasts of the field that God had created.

 

[chessman]

My point exactly you are using your book to descibe something to me that doesnt exist in our book.

Our book was written by Jews. Your book was Jesus' book too.

 

[Taniesh]

wondering, I know what I am talking about. I think you need to reevaluate your ideas about satan.

 

[JohnDB]

Moderator Hat on here.

Posts must include scriptures or substantive support for opinions for Apologetic answers in Apologetics and Theology forum.

Please find and use facts and not guesses to support your claims.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes ma'am it would.

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 1 Corinthians 6:19

Our body is God's Temple, not Satan's.

His perspective exalts the power of the devil over God.

Which is what the devil was kicked out of heaven for doing.

JLB

I'd have to agree with the above.
The Holy Spirit and satan cannot both inhabit the same space.

This also reminds me of this scripture:
Mathew 12:43-45

If a house is "swept clean" it is empty. The house, our soul or spirit, cannot be clean, meaning empty.
It should be inhabited by the Holy Spirit, thus there would be no room for satan. When satan inhabits a person, that person is possessed - of this there is no question.

The influence of satan is everywhere we look. However, the influence is outside of ourselves.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 correctly shows that within a house there are vessels of gold or earth -referring to the fact that we are not perfect yet since earth is also present. Earth representing our sinful nature. It goes on to say that we are to depart from the wood, or sinful nature.

The Great House might also mean the church. And that the wood and earth would signify false teachers and that they should be removed from the house.

In either case, it does not say that satan is in us.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering, I know what I am talking about. I think you need to reevaluate your ideas about satan.

Which ideas are those?
I don't remember stating any.
And all my ideas are biblically based.
If it's not in the bible, I ask, I don't declare.
1 John 1:1-4

The Apostles declared, the O.T. prophets declared. WE cannot declare anything new. We can only declare what has been passed down to us. Revelation 22:18-19 can be applied to the entire bible.
This is why cults exist. This is why the JW's exist. Because they've made up their own version of the bible story. This is dangerous.
Galatians 1:8 and 2 Corinthians 11:4 exhort us to not change the gospel. This is true for both the N.T. and the O.T.

One can have a different interpretation of a verse, but one cannot make up their own story on any biblical concept.

We DO NOT now what was in God's mind when He was creating the universe, and should not assume to know. Are we God?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

It is my understanding that Yehovah created the heavens and the earth and everything in it. As far as the serpent goes, for the last 3000 or so years I would say the majority understanding is that the serpent in Genesis is either a metaphor for a man who attempted to lay with another man's wife or simply a walking talking beasty serpent. I think too it is clearly written in Genesis that the serpent was a creation of Yehovah.

The bible does say that Yahweh created everything. Both in the O. T. and in the N.T. Herein lies my problem. Did God create evil? I cannot believe this but also cannot come to any solution. I've learned only to accept.
It is interesting to discuss when this topic comes up - but I'm not expecting any answers.

In Genesis we only read about the serpent. Not satan. Satan is an idea that was gradually developed throughout the O.T. and especially in the N.T. But much of the bible is gradual revelation - God revealed His plan gradually as man was able to accept. As you must know, contextualists believe the story of Genesis is only a symbol story to explain how evil entered into the heart of man. Of course, it brings up many questions - more than it answers.

Also, biblical history begins with Abraham and I often wonder how much we should be debating events before that since they were mainly written of to teach us something. I do believe each event was based on fact however. A flood really happened. Ziggurats were really built to be a meeting place between God and people, thus the base for the Tower of Babel.

Christians believe everything Jesus said because we believe He is the awaited Messiah. If He spoke of satan, then we just have to accept that he exists as a real entity.

Do you understand Jesus to have failed in His mission because His life ended in death instead of victory over the Romans? Do you not accept that He fulfilled many prophecies?

Wondering