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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Who has the Authority to Interpret Scripture?
- Thread starter biblecatholic
- Start date
Your "doctrine" still only boils down to "read and interpret only Scripture and follow your conscience". Scripture doesn't teach this ONLY, it teaches much more.[/quote]
Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit is your counselor and that every word in scripture is God-breathed. That's what sripture teaches.
Scripture does not teach that only priests can interpret scripture, that anyone on earth is our Holy Father let alone that this "holy Father' on earth is the only one who can interpret scripture.
: That is all made up by the Catholics and it contradicts everything in scripture. In fact, that's what all cult leaders teach; that they alone can interpret scripture for their followers. That's precisely how they brainwash their followers to worship them and see that they alone have the truth.
Those are the tactics that Jim Jones, Darvid Koresch, the pope and all cults use to re-write the bible. They render the minds of their followers empty so they can re-program them to follow the cult leader.
And that's why that doesn't work on the elect because the elect believe Jesus when he tells us that we have one teacher and that is Christ. So the elect follow Jesus, not an earthly "Holy Father" nor any man on earth.
In fact, we now no longer have any priests since only Jesus has become our high priest. He is the one mediator between man and God. Ever since the temple curtain tore at Christ's resurrection, now God is accessible to everyone who houses Jesus Christ inside of him because we are now the temple since the Spirit is now inside all born-again Christians.
But the only way to change the minds of any Catholic is to get them away from the pope's words and directly to the words of Christ so that their one teacher is Christ not their cult leader. But unfortunately, for most Catholics, their loyalty is to the pope, not to Jesus.
Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit is your counselor and that every word in scripture is God-breathed. That's what sripture teaches.
Scripture does not teach that only priests can interpret scripture, that anyone on earth is our Holy Father let alone that this "holy Father' on earth is the only one who can interpret scripture.
: That is all made up by the Catholics and it contradicts everything in scripture. In fact, that's what all cult leaders teach; that they alone can interpret scripture for their followers. That's precisely how they brainwash their followers to worship them and see that they alone have the truth.Those are the tactics that Jim Jones, Darvid Koresch, the pope and all cults use to re-write the bible. They render the minds of their followers empty so they can re-program them to follow the cult leader.
And that's why that doesn't work on the elect because the elect believe Jesus when he tells us that we have one teacher and that is Christ. So the elect follow Jesus, not an earthly "Holy Father" nor any man on earth.
In fact, we now no longer have any priests since only Jesus has become our high priest. He is the one mediator between man and God. Ever since the temple curtain tore at Christ's resurrection, now God is accessible to everyone who houses Jesus Christ inside of him because we are now the temple since the Spirit is now inside all born-again Christians.
But the only way to change the minds of any Catholic is to get them away from the pope's words and directly to the words of Christ so that their one teacher is Christ not their cult leader. But unfortunately, for most Catholics, their loyalty is to the pope, not to Jesus.
francisdesales
Member
Heidi said:
Let's try something new today. Perhaps this approach may help you explain where you stand.
What does the God-breathed Scritpures say "what" is the pillar and foundation of the Truth? According to 1 Tim 3:15, the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Elsewhere, the God-breathed Scriptures say that the Spirit abides in the Church, the Body of Christ. So, with that in mind, I ask you:
IF a person interprets Scriptures that is AGAINST what this "pillar and foundation of the truth" teaches, WHICH "spirit" is leading you in your interpretations? There are not two truths on opposing positions. Thus, if on the one hand, we have the "pillar and foundation of the truth" saying "x", and we have Heidi saying "x is not true", what is the unbiased observer going to say?
Who is leading you to interpret against the Truth?
Tell me, Heidi, WHO leads men and women to speak against the truth?
Regards
francisdesales said:
Francis,
When you take one verse and ignore the other verses, you distort the truth. When you forget that the truth comes from God's word, then you claim that only the church has the truth. Again, that's what all cults do. They claim that they are the one true church, only they have divine powers and only they have the truth.
That means that they can make up their own bible, which all cults do, tell their congregation that they're too stupid to understand the word of God, which all cults do, then they can make up stories and pass them along as the truth. That's what happens when you say that the church is what leads us into truth.
Not so. Only God is infallible and His word, which is as alive and eternal as God is, is what the church is supposed to pass along if they claim to worship God. So you are incorrect again because you ignore other verses in the bible.
Since my beliefs come from God's word and yours come from the pope who is a mere mortal, then Satan is leading you to believe the pope who contradicts God's word in almost everything he says. But the pope can do nothing for you on your deathbed any more than earthly bread can. So I'm afraid when you die, you can't call on anyone since you have abandoned God's word for the teachings of men.
But since you claim that you don't have the authority to interpret scripture, then I will no longer trust your interpretations of scripture. Since you yourself don't believe your own interpretations, then I certainly can't rust your interpretations either. So I'll take you at your word that your can't interpret scripture correctly. By your own words, then there will thus be no further reason for me to listen to you.
francisdesales
Member
Heidi said:
Rather than lecturing me, perhaps you should tell me where I ignore verses to distort the truth. That way, I can learn from my mistakes. Your broad accusation is meaningless, however, if you just make some wild claim with no evidence.
I'm sorry that my common sense approach did not work. If I had authority to interpret Scriptures infallibly, and you did as well, and we disagree, tell me Heidi, WHO IS CORRECT?
Regards
francisdesales said:
The bible is correct. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood. This isn't between you and me, francis, it's about God's word says. I didn't write the bible and neither did you. So making this a contest between you and me is ridiculous. You go to Jesus and only Jesus for the truth because only Jesus is the way to God, not the pope or me. The pope didn't die for your sins and neither did I. So you can't get to heaven through the pope or any human being. So you need to stop believing only people but you have to develop a personal relationship with Jesus so you know him personally through the Holy Spirit as he tells us in John 17:3. Jesus is alive and well and He will guide you into all truth. Acts 5:29, "We must obey God rather than men!".
If you don't know that Jesus is alive, then how do you know what Jesus said? :o How can you follow someone you don't understand? :o And that's why all born again Christians are qualified to interpret scripture because we have the mind of Christ. That's what being born again of the Holy Spirit means.
Again, the words in the bible are simple enough for a child to understand because we all learned those words in elementary school. So there is no excuse not to understand most of the bible. So the issue isn't interpretation, it's unbelief. Which words in Matthew 23:9 do you not understand? They're pretty easy. So the problem isn't a lack of understanding of those words, it's unbelief of those words.
So which part of 2 Timothy 3:16 do you not understand? All scripture is God-breathed. Again, those words are also easy to understand because we learned most of them in school. So that verse is easy to understand as well. But do you believe those words? Therefore if the churches are going to pass along what God says, they pass along scripture. Therefore scripture is the final authority, not the church.
That's because many churches do not pass along scripture including the Catholic Church. Matthew 23:9 is easy enough for a child to understand. Yet the Catholics tell you that you're too stupid to understand it. So you doubt what it says. The catholic clergy tells you that you're too stupid to understand Matthew 1:25, and to let them interpret it for you, and on and on. That's what all cults do. They have to undermine the intelligence of their followers in order justify changing scripture into what they want it to say. So they tell you that scripture is mysterious and only the Catholic clergy can interpret it.
So if you don't feel qualified to understand scripture, francis, then you can't follow and worship Jesus when you don't understand him. You will thus be susceptible to following cult leaders who brainwash you into believing that they re the only ones who can interpret scripture for you. Then your faith will be in the cult leaders instead of in Christ alone. And that's why so many cult followers will die for their leaders because they need their leaders to interpret scripture for them, otherwise they have nothing. So the cult leaders have their followers in the palms of their hands, just like the Catholic clergy has catholics. In fact, I've even heard catholics say they'll die for the pope and if the pope changed his mind, they'd go with the pope, not the bible, (which they're already done). But I've also known ex-Catholics who, once they've become born again, are furious at the Catholic church for telling them that only the Catholic clergy can interpret scripture for them and they have left since the church.
You also won't be able to present your "interpretations" of scripture very well since you've already told others that you aren't qualified to understand scripture.
So what you need to do as fervently ask God to send you the Holy Spirit so you can have the mind of Christ as well. He will send him to you if you keep asking. Then when you do receive him,you will find that the simple words in the bible come alive. And then they will be easy to believe.
You then won't need the Catholic clergy to tell you you're too stupid to understand the bible & that they are the only ones who can tell you what it means because you'll have the mind of Christ once you receive the Holy Spirit.
So you have got to get away from the catholic church and read the bible for yourself because staying in the church makes you doubt your own perceptions of what the bible says. Matthew 1;25 couldn't be clearer that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations, which I think that even you know. But the church has tried to undermine your faith in what the bible ays so you'll come to them and worship the pope as your Holy Father. So they tell you that that's not what Matthew 1:25 means. That's Satan at his best. The catholic church instills guilt and fear in its followers to keep them in the church. But most of all, they use the word; Tradition" to entice people to stay. "After all, we've been around a long time so we must be right" is a powerful seductive tool to keep people stuck in the past and remains where they are. So get away from the church and believe Jesus when he says you have one teacher and that is Christ. Once you believe only Jesus, then it won't be hard to see who is a true teacher and who is a false teacher. I'll pray for you.
francisdesales
Member
Heidi said:
I am not making this a contest between us. I am merely defending the Catholic Church's interpretation of the same Bible that you have (NT). Yes, I know our struggle is not against flesh and blood. That is not the issue. It is whether we will have a body when we are resurrected. If Christ had a body, so will we. That is clear from the book that you say is correct.
Heidi said:You go to Jesus and only Jesus for the truth because only Jesus is the way to God, not the pope or me. The pope didn't die for your sins and neither did I. So you can't get to heaven through the pope or any human being. So you need to stop believing only people but you have to develop a personal relationship with Jesus so you know him personally through the Holy Spirit as he tells us in John 17:3. Jesus is alive and well and He will guide you into all truth. Acts 5:29, "We must obey God rather than men!".
I thought you said this is not some sort of argument between us, but that is what you are consistently doing. You are trying to tell me how to worship and that the way that I do it is wrong. This is based on your infallible ability to interpret the Scriptures, no doubt. What is ironic is that the Church wrote the individual letters that you call "Bible" today. Thus, I follow THAT Church's interpretation of that book. That seems to me to be common sense.
John 17 is not speaking to you, Heidi, but to the disciples of Christ, the future leaders of the Church. Acts 5:29 has nothing to do with you and I, either. It is the Apostles stating that the old Jewish ways were not valid anymore. Remember the time, Heidi. The Apostles were teaching something totally new. The Jews had seen heresy before in their ranks, and they probably considered the Apostles' teachings as just another example of trying to pull away faithful Jews from the flock. Thus, "we obey God rather than men".
Now, consider reading Matthew 16:16-20. It says that a MAN was given authority to bind and loosen. I know this bothers you, but if you believe God is sovereign and has a free will, then He doesn't have to consult with you before deciding that He is going to delegate authority to a man. It was done throughout the OT, so it should come as no surprise...
Heidi said:
Wrong. You can "interpret" Scriptures, but it doesn't mean that you will be automatically correct in your interpretations JUST BECAUSE you THINK that the Spirit is whispering in your ear. That is the teachings of a cult. All it takes is a bit of common sense to show this idea is false, because if you get two Protestants, led by the Spirit, born again, etc., they won't agree on every teaching found in the Bible. If you can explain that, I'd appreciate that.
Heidi said:
If the words of the Bible are simple enough to understand for a child, why is there a multi-BILLION dollar a year industry of commentaries, bible translations, computer software, etc...? Why is there the existence of this forum? Why are there many varied seminaries at the Doctorate level that teach Scriptures? Clearly, a child cannot understand EVERYTHING in the Bible, otherwise, these schools would be out of business. No one would buy commentaries. Some common sense would be useful, Heidi. Rather than a slavish following of twisted texts, you should sit back and think for a minute what you are preaching to me. It makes no sense and doesn't mesh with what exists out there today.
Heidi said:
Oh, here we go again. First, I agree that all Scritpures are God-breathed. Who are you trying to pick a fight with? First, you don't want to argue, then you choose a subject that I agree with you on. Yes, all Scriptures is God-breathed. However, your last sentence. Where does the "God-breathed" Scriptures actually SAY that? That is a tradition of men, Heidi. Find me ONE VERSE in the entire Bible that says that the Scriptures without the Church are the final authority. Just ONE. Otherwise, this subject is closed. Yes, the bible is inspired, but that doesn't make it the final authority ALONE. You choose to separate the Bible from the Church, when Scriptures themselves NEVER do that.
Heidi said:
You are being obstinate. These verses have been explained to you a multitude of times. I don't see that doing it one more time will matter. The Pharisees ALSO had their eyes closed. What can I say... Even Jesus gave up on the Pharisees because they REFUSED to see. Time has not changed, people continue to keep their eyes closed.
Heidi said:
As to changing Scriptures, that is exactly what YOU do. The Church has interpreted John 6 a certain way for 1500 years, until the reformation. Why did THEY change the meaning? Why did THEY change the Scriptures? Because they wanted to justify their own ideas of interpretation, although the Spirit exists within the Church and has guided it from the beginning.
Can you tell me when the Holy Spirit left the Church? Maybe you can tell me the month? The day of the week? How about the year? Any clue, Heidi? The Scriptures that you claim to know so well tell us that the Spirit inhabits the Church as a Temple. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth BECAUSE the Spirit dwells within her. Now, if the Spirit has been promised to the Church for all time, at what point did the Spirit break Jesus' promise? When did the Spirit leave?
Do you have a date?
Heidi said:
Have you recently been in a cult Heidi? Are you still in a cult trying to get out? You sure talk about cults a lot.
Heidi said:
You sound like a confused lady, Heidi. I'll keep you in my prayers. Your irrational posts have me worried, quite frankly. Do you have any family or friends that can help you get out of that community of hate that you currently dwell in, that cult that hinders your intellectual development? It sounds like this cult has a major hold on you, because you are obstinate and refuse to listen to other points of view and consider them as valid, or even as more correct then your own. If you want to talk via PM because you don't want to share senstive information, I would be more than happy to hear your story and offer any help, even if it is just prayers for your sake. I wish you well, Heidi, and hope that you allow the Lord to free you from this slavery.
The first step is admitting you have a problem. Read your posts. Who is attacking who? Who is picking a fight with who? What's with all this cult talk? Why the paranoia?
Regards
francisdesales said:Heidi said:
I am not making this a contest between us. I am merely defending the Catholic Church's interpretation of the same Bible that you have (NT). Yes, I know our struggle is not against flesh and blood. That is not the issue. It is whether we will have a body when we are resurrected. If Christ had a body, so will we. That is clear from the book that you say is correct.
Heidi said:You go to Jesus and only Jesus for the truth because only Jesus is the way to God, not the pope or me. The pope didn't die for your sins and neither did I. So you can't get to heaven through the pope or any human being. So you need to stop believing only people but you have to develop a personal relationship with Jesus so you know him personally through the Holy Spirit as he tells us in John 17:3. Jesus is alive and well and He will guide you into all truth. Acts 5:29, "We must obey God rather than men!".
I thought you said this is not some sort of argument between us, but that is what you are consistently doing. You are trying to tell me how to worship and that the way that I do it is wrong. This is based on your infallible ability to interpret the Scriptures, no doubt. What is ironic is that the Church wrote the individual letters that you call "Bible" today. Thus, I follow THAT Church's interpretation of that book. That seems to me to be common sense.
John 17 is not speaking to you, Heidi, but to the disciples of Christ, the future leaders of the Church. Acts 5:29 has nothing to do with you and I, either. It is the Apostles stating that the old Jewish ways were not valid anymore. Remember the time, Heidi. The Apostles were teaching something totally new. The Jews had seen heresy before in their ranks, and they probably considered the Apostles' teachings as just another example of trying to pull away faithful Jews from the flock. Thus, "we obey God rather than men".
Now, consider reading Matthew 16:16-20. It says that a MAN was given authority to bind and loosen. I know this bothers you, but if you believe God is sovereign and has a free will, then He doesn't have to consult with you before deciding that He is going to delegate authority to a man. It was done throughout the OT, so it should come as no surprise...
Heidi said:
Wrong. You can "interpret" Scriptures, but it doesn't mean that you will be automatically correct in your interpretations JUST BECAUSE you THINK that the Spirit is whispering in your ear. That is the teachings of a cult. All it takes is a bit of common sense to show this idea is false, because if you get two Protestants, led by the Spirit, born again, etc., they won't agree on every teaching found in the Bible. If you can explain that, I'd appreciate that.
Heidi said:
If the words of the Bible are simple enough to understand for a child, why is there a multi-BILLION dollar a year industry of commentaries, bible translations, computer software, etc...? Why is there the existence of this forum? Why are there many varied seminaries at the Doctorate level that teach Scriptures? Clearly, a child cannot understand EVERYTHING in the Bible, otherwise, these schools would be out of business. No one would buy commentaries. Some common sense would be useful, Heidi. Rather than a slavish following of twisted texts, you should sit back and think for a minute what you are preaching to me. It makes no sense and doesn't mesh with what exists out there today.
Heidi said:
Oh, here we go again. First, I agree that all Scritpures are God-breathed. Who are you trying to pick a fight with? First, you don't want to argue, then you choose a subject that I agree with you on. Yes, all Scriptures is God-breathed. However, your last sentence. Where does the "God-breathed" Scriptures actually SAY that? That is a tradition of men, Heidi. Find me ONE VERSE in the entire Bible that says that the Scriptures without the Church are the final authority. Just ONE. Otherwise, this subject is closed. Yes, the bible is inspired, but that doesn't make it the final authority ALONE. You choose to separate the Bible from the Church, when Scriptures themselves NEVER do that.
Heidi said:
You are being obstinate. These verses have been explained to you a multitude of times. I don't see that doing it one more time will matter. The Pharisees ALSO had their eyes closed. What can I say... Even Jesus gave up on the Pharisees because they REFUSED to see. Time has not changed, people continue to keep their eyes closed.
Heidi said:
As to changing Scriptures, that is exactly what YOU do. The Church has interpreted John 6 a certain way for 1500 years, until the reformation. Why did THEY change the meaning? Why did THEY change the Scriptures? Because they wanted to justify their own ideas of interpretation, although the Spirit exists within the Church and has guided it from the beginning.
Can you tell me when the Holy Spirit left the Church? Maybe you can tell me the month? The day of the week? How about the year? Any clue, Heidi? The Scriptures that you claim to know so well tell us that the Spirit inhabits the Church as a Temple. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth BECAUSE the Spirit dwells within her. Now, if the Spirit has been promised to the Church for all time, at what point did the Spirit break Jesus' promise? When did the Spirit leave?
Do you have a date?
Heidi said:
Have you recently been in a cult Heidi? Are you still in a cult trying to get out? You sure talk about cults a lot.
Heidi said:
You sound like a confused lady, Heidi. I'll keep you in my prayers. Your irrational posts have me worried, quite frankly. Do you have any family or friends that can help you get out of that community of hate that you currently dwell in, that cult that hinders your intellectual development? It sounds like this cult has a major hold on you, because you are obstinate and refuse to listen to other points of view and consider them as valid, or even as more correct then your own. If you want to talk via PM because you don't want to share senstive information, I would be more than happy to hear your story and offer any help, even if it is just prayers for your sake. I wish you well, Heidi, and hope that you allow the Lord to free you from this slavery.
The first step is admitting you have a problem. Read your posts. Who is attacking who? Who is picking a fight with who? What's with all this cult talk? Why the paranoia?
Regards
How is wanting you to know Jesus hate? :o If you think it's hate to want people to know their Lord and Savior then you have no idea who your friend is and who your enemy is. So it's you who is confused about who your enemy is and who your friend is, not me.
I'm not confused because I know what the bible says and I also know my Lord and Savior who is living in me and you obviously don't or you wouldn't think it's hate to want you to be born again of the Holy Spirit. You have no idea if Jesus said; Do call people on earth 'father' or don't call anyone on earth 'father.'
: You have no clue because either you can't understand the English language or you simply don't believe Jesus. Since you look to the church's interpretation of scripture instead of to what the bible says, then you are being misled, francis. I haven't changed Matthew 23:9 to say, "Do call your religious leaders 'father' for you have more than one Father and he is in heaven."So either you can't understand English or you don't believe what the bible says. Matthew 23:9, says "And do not call anyone on earth 'father for you have one Father and he is in heaven." None of my words are in there. So you have made a blatant falsehood when you say I change scripture. So you can continue to worship the pope. I'll worship Christ because he will be with me on my deathbed and the pope will not be. So I believe you when you say you are not authorized to interpret scripture as your posts show. You therefore have nothing further to say that could possibly interest me.
francisdesales
Member
Heidi said:
Heidi,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know Jesus! What's all this talk about "who your friend is and who your enemy is"? I don't consider you an "enemy", but a fellow believer who is just confused. That doesn't mean that I believe that God doesn't love you or that you are not a Christian.
Really, what does Scripture say about the subject of love? Christians, as you must certainly know, are COMMANDED to love, even their so-called "enemies". Heidi, even the pagans love those who love them. We are called to be God-like, to love even those who do not care for us. I do not consider you my enemy. I am not harassing you or you community of faith. I am not calling your beliefs cultish. I beg you to look at your posts, look at my posts, and look inside of yourself. Am I getting upset or bent out of shape because you are not attending Catholic Mass on Sundays? Or that you receive the Eucharist, which Jesus says we MUST receive to have eternal life? No. However, you go on and on about calling priests "Father"!
Is that really worth arguing over continuously? Is that going to keep me out of heaven? While it makes sense to discuss the key elements of our faith, I consider calling a priest "Father" not one of them. Especially when Paul calls himself a "father" to the Corinthians.
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15.
Paul has given "birth" to the community through the Gospel, making him their spiritual father. Through Paul, the Corinthians receive support and direction and discipline, just as an earthly father provides for his children. Paul is certainly not replacing our Father in heaven, Heidi! God has chosen to work THROUGH Paul. Paul says this a number of times. Do you think Paul's display of power comes from Paul? Thus, God certainly agrees with 1 Cor 4:15. That means your interpretation of Jesus' words are incorrect, since God approves of Paul being called a "father".
Later, John writes on several occasions, mentioning that "forbidden" word...
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning 1 John 2:13-14
John, the beloved disciple, the one who rested his head on Jesus bosom at the Last Supper, is calling other men "fathers"! Could John have deliberately disobeyed Jesus whom he loved so much, even to stand at the foot of the cross while the other disciples fled?
John even calls himself a father by speaking to his children:
[b]My little children[/b], these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous 1 John 2:1
You are certainly free to disagree with me, but is that disagreement really going to keep me out of heaven? Is it going to draw you closer to Jesus? I have nothing further to say. If you choose to keep your eyes closed, that is certainly your free will. But don't judge me, because I have Scriptural precedent to call my priest a "Father", and I will continue to do so. He provides me with comfort in times of need, gives practical advice, and through him, I receive the Body of Christ, my spiritual food. That sounds like what the definition of a father is, Heidi. The bible refutes your interpretation of Jesus' words.
Again, I am not trying to pick a fight, but merely explain why we do what we do. There is biblical precedent for our beliefs. I'm sorry that you disagree, but I hope that some day, you can find it in your heart to allow me to worship God in the way that I believe God wants me to worship Him.
PS. I will return your email as soon as I can, but I am going to be busy soon.
Regards
francisdesales said:
Sorry, francis, but Christ is not divided. He did not say both; "Do call people on earth 'father..."' and "don't call anyone on earth 'father'..." So what did he say? It's right there in scripture, "Do not call anyone on earth 'father..." So since i can read, and there is a discrepancy between what Jesus says and what the Catholic church says, I'll go with Christ's words all the time. If you want to chastize me for that, then that's your problem, not mine. But I will not change the bible to say what you want it to say.
God is also not divided either. So in Matthew 1;25, God did not say that Mary was a virgin all her life and not a virgin all her life because God does not lie. So what does God's word say? "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son." God's word says that Mary was not a virgin all her life.
So since God's word can be read by anyone who can read, then no, the catholic church's "interpretation" is not the same as what God says because what God says is right there in print. So again,k you are not fooling anyone who can read when you say the Catholics have biblical justification for their beliefs. Non-Catholics are not stupid. We understand basic word vocabulary and grammar so please don't insult our intelligence because you will never get God's true elect to change the bible to make it say the opposite of what it says just to please the catholics. :x
francisdesales
Member
Heidi said:
Then explain Paul and John's use of the term "Father".
francisdesales said:
Paul is talking about the father of the gospel, not our father in heaven. But Paul never asks us to call him 'father'. Never. That's because as Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 3:3-9, that he and all humans are mere servants of God, not our personal 'father.'
But once we are born again of the Holy Spirit, God now becomes our personal Father just as he was Christ's personal Father because Jesus and all born again Christians are now born of the Spirit of God. We thus become sons of God. That's why Jesus asks us to pray; "Our Father who art in heaven..." And he's not talking about the pope or Mary.
But since the catholics have been calling the pope their Holy Father, then they are now confused as to who their Father is which is precisely why Jesus tells us not to call anyone on earth 'father' especially our religious leaders. So the catholics are demonstrating why we are not to call anyone on earth 'father' because they now go to the pope for Spiritual guidance instead of to the word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit who is now our Counselor, as Jesus tells us.
francisdesales
Member
Heidi said:
Paul says he is the father of the Corinthian community. He is not the father of the gospel, Christ is. I thought you realized that...
Catholics don't call priests "father" to replace that Father in heaven, nor does Paul call himself "father" to replace God in heaven. We do the same thing that Paul and John does in the bible. Do you have a problem with the Bible?
Heidi said:
No - he already TELLS them that he is. He doesn't ask...!
Heidi said:
Priests are servants of God, also, Heidi. The priest is not my personal father. My "dad" is, [I can say "dad", can't I?] the person who contributed his sperm to fertilze the egg in my mother's womb. The priest wasn't involved in that - so he is not my personal father. Very good. And you are arguing over that???
What is the difference between Paul and a typical priest regarding "father"? You are inventing distinctions that are just not there. Priests are servants of the Lord, as well.
Heidi said:
That's nice. Where is the Scriptures for that? Where does it say that God becomes my personal father? Just curious.
And what does that have to do with Paul and John being a "father" if that term can NEVER EVER NEVER be used by a person UNLESS refering to God in heaven??? Why do they use it? :o
Heidi said:
:P
How silly. Do you know any Catholics who are confused, thinking that the Pope is God in heaven??? That's just nuts... Can people really believe that?
Heidi said:
Does a Protestant EVER EVER EVER go to his pastor for help? How much you want to bet that those guys are kept busy by these supposed superior Protestants who need no one but their bibles and Jesus???
You need to look at reality, because Protestants go to others for spiritual help. Is that a problem with you?
No question about it, God resides in every true believer.
Yet where does scripture say that every person, by virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit, can interpret the Scriptures through the power of God?
Secondly, if there is no authority but God alone on these matters, and yet that authority is in every believer, how can one know which interpretation is correct when multiple "God- led believers" disagree over an interpretation?
Yet where does scripture say that every person, by virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit, can interpret the Scriptures through the power of God?
Secondly, if there is no authority but God alone on these matters, and yet that authority is in every believer, how can one know which interpretation is correct when multiple "God- led believers" disagree over an interpretation?
Scripture says not all do...
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 1 Corinthians 12:29-30
...and I'm sure even those good at interpreting scripture do so only through the haze of their imperfectness.
Then the issue is between God and the believer.
Veritas
Hi Veritas,
I would add (s) to your comment: Then the issue is between God and the believers. It stands to reason that in such cases that a problem arose among the brethren. This does not mean that the problem has to threaten unity or be allowed to do so - the problem can be made a point of prayer and seeking the Lord. If someone asks: Which interpretation is right? under these circumstances they need to be prepared to wait and be content to wait for as long as it takes the body of Christ to learn what is the mind of Christ.
I agree with the (s).
I also believe that we must be prepaired to wait for certain things to be ironed out until Christ comes back. ....Of course we should still strive in the meantime.
Maybe I should have said:
Then the issue is between God and the believer and/or believers.
Because I was getting at the fact that there is this one on one aspect to our relationship with Jesus as well. Putting the (s) there reminds us that we are part of the body of Christ and I think that is good too.
francisdesales said:
1 Corinthians 4:15, "For in Christ, I became your father through the gospel." That means that Paul heard directly from Christ, unlike anyone who knew Jesus and therefore was the first one to pass along what Jesus told him through the Spirit. The disciples all heard and saw Jesus speak, Paul did not. So he was the first one to be directed by Christ only by the Spirit. That does not mean that Paul has become our personal father, which is precisely why Paul never told anyone to call him 'Father." So contrary to what you claim, Paul never disobeys Jesus.
No you do not do the same thing that Paul and John did because they never told us to call them 'father' which would be directly disoebying Jesus. So your attempt to prove Jesus wrong in Matthew 23;9, has again, failed.
So it's obviously you who has a problem with Matthew 23;9, Matthew 1;25, Deuteronomy 18:11, Exodus 20:4, Leviticus 26:1, Colossians 2:8, Luke 1:47, Deuteronomy 4:15 and many more scriptures as well.
And since Paul tells us not to engage in stupid and foolish arguments, it is indeed a stupid argument to claim that Jesus tells us to go ahead and call our religious leaders 'father' that Mary and Joseph never had sex, that we are supposed to carve statues of men and women, bow down, and pray to them. Those all directly contradict the bible. My beliefs do not.
So it is another false statement to say that I don't believe the bible. I therefore will no longer engage in conversations with people who change the bible into the opposite of what it says, then personally attack others for believing it as written. That's Satan at his best.