Who is being talked about in John 1:1-18?

[thessalonian]

have studied the history of these people and have a pretty clear understanding of who created the 'trinity' and why.

No, you do not. It's like the Da Vinci Code nonsense. You pick and choose which distortion you like best because it allows you to remain where you are at, denying the divinity of Christ who is the WORD MADE FLESH! THE WORD WHICH WAS GOD!

 

[Vic C.]

Every time I ask this question, those who reject that Jesus is God do not answer. :-?

So... I will ask again:

Was Jesus lying when He said "... before Abraham was, I AM."? From the responses of those who heard and rejected (remember, they wanted to stone Him), it is clear, logically, they being Jewish knew exactly what He was saying.

They would not stone a man simply because he said he was before Abraham. They would stone Him thought, for saying He was the Great I AM. To them who rejected His Deity, that would have been a blasphemous statement.

SO... was Jesus lying?

We have debated Oneness Pentecostals in the past and I see the same lack of understanding of the triune doctrine here. We DO NOT beleive in three gods, we believe in one God, one Godhead, one Elohim.

One more thing... this is not a creation of the RCC. It dates back to as early as the first century itself; second century at the latest. Peter is suggesting on the very day of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that Christ is Lord. See Acts 2.

 

[thessalonian]

One more thing... this is not a creation of the RCC.

There are no creations of the RCC. :-D

 

[Vic C.]

One more thing... this is not a creation of the RCC.

There are no creations of the RCC. :-D

Oh, ok... now that that's settled. :-D :

 

[thessalonian]

Vic,

Are there any creations of the pcc (protestant Christian Churches)? Everyone likes to talk about the creations of the RCC. Let's talk about creations of the PCC. Are there any creations of Vic's CC? :-?

 

[gingercat]

Was Jesus lying when He said "... before Abraham was, I AM."?

Are you saying Jesus is saying He is God? If so, where is the proof you are right?

 

[Vic C.]

Vic,

Are there any creations of the pcc (protestant Christian Churches)? Everyone likes to talk about the creations of the RCC. Let's talk about creations of the PCC. Are there any creations of Vic's CC? :-?

Simmer down boy. This is the wrong thread for that discussion. :-D

Are you saying Jesus is saying He is God? If so, where is the proof you are right?

I'm saying nothing. The Bible says it all. Think like a first century Jew, like George suggested.

Was He lying? Was this a case of blasphemy or was Jesus in line with Exodus 3:14?

Check one, Yes or No. It's simple. :-D

 

[gingercat]

I'm saying nothing. The Bible says it all. Think like a first century Jew, like George suggested.

Was He lying? Was this a case of blasphemy or was Jesus in line with Exodus 3:14?

Check one, Yes or No. It's simple. :-D

Jesus is not saying He is God either. :roll:

 

[Imagican]

Every time I ask this question, those who reject that Jesus is God do not answer. :-?

So... I will ask again:

Was Jesus lying when He said "... before Abraham was, I AM."? From the responses of those who heard and rejected (remember, they wanted to stone Him), it is clear, logically, they being Jewish knew exactly what He was saying.

They would not stone a man simply because he said he was before Abraham. They would stone Him thought, for saying He was the Great I AM. To them who rejected His Deity, that would have been a blasphemous statement.

SO... was Jesus lying?

We have debated Oneness Pentecostals in the past and I see the same lack of understanding of the triune doctrine here. We DO NOT beleive in three gods, we believe in one God, one Godhead, one Elohim.

One more thing... this is not a creation of the RCC. It dates back to as early as the first century itself; second century at the latest. Peter is suggesting on the very day of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that Christ is Lord. See Acts 2.

Ok Vic,

Let me be the one that 'does' answer this question. I thought that I have answered it before, but if not, let me do so now.

The Jews KNEW God. They may not have had personal relationships with the Father on an individual basis, (any more than most that 'claim' to be Christians now days do), but they knew OF God, without doubt. And it was the religious leaders that wanted to to 'stone' Christ to death for claiming that He WAS God's SON, the Son of God, thus claiming a 'form' of deity. They NEVER accused Him of claiming to BE God.

Now, before Abraham Christ WAS. This is without doubt. For Christ IS the firstborn of ALL CREATION. He WAS God's Son BEFORE the creation of man. For it was through Christ and FOR Christ that man was created to begin with. But, we have perfect indications if not outright statements that Jesus WAS created by God, this is the REASON that He is called the Son of God. For just as my son was created BY ME, Christ was created by the Father. Christ Himself states this. And He also states that His power is from the Father and that the words that He speaks are NOT HIS OWN but given to Him BY THE FATHER to give to us.

Now, what I would like from you or any other 'trinitarian' is a statement that Christ makes or God makes that even indicates that Jesus Christ WAS/IS God. But we both already know that this is not possible for Christ NEVER STATED that He was/IS God. There was Thomas, (the doubter, NO DOUBT), that called Christ His God. But this is nothing more, nothing less than the statement of man that didn't even believe that the man to which he spoke was Jesus Christ to begin with. And what shock it must have been to him to realize that the man to whom he spoke was indeed The Christ. So, how easy would it have been for Thomas to be overwhelmed by this revelation to the point that he would utter ANYTHING, including calling Christ God. Not a hard one to fathom or understand in the least.

And what irritated the Jewish leaders as much as anything else was Jesus gaining followers and the claim that He was the KING of the Jews, NOT their God.

So, what I have offered is that to make ANYTHING God other than God Himself is to create a false god or an idol of worship which we have been COMMANDED NOT TO DO. I KNOW Jesus IS THE SON OF GOD for this was spoken from His mouth. I do NOT know that Jesus was/IS God for this is NOT spoken of God nor The Son.

I DO know that 'trinity' pre-existed Christianity in religions practiced by the SAME people that introduced it into Christianity. The indication is that it was something familiar from their previous pagan religions and that they simply introduced it into Christianity when they TOOK CONTROL over it. The apostles NEVER TAUGHT A "TRINITY" nor did CHRIST HIMSELF. So it is OBVIOUSLY a man-made tradition regardless of what a believer in this doctrine may say to the contrary.

Guys, do you honestly believe that Christ would come to this world, suffer as He did, and then choose to have those that murdered Him introduce this doctrine of HATE, (this is why people KILL people, regardless of what they may say, they DO NOT kill them out of love), in His name? Jesus taught us of the LOVE OF GOD. God IS love. Those that created this 'trinity' were having people MURDERED for denying it. And is there a one of you out there that will state that you believe that this was God's wish? That God encouraged this barbaric behavior against those that followed Jesus but simply didn't accept the doctrine created by the RCC? Please.

 

[Georges]

Vic,

I'm saying nothing. The Bible says it all. Think like a first century Jew, like George suggested.

Looking at it as a Jew "may" have looked at it....here is an excerpt from

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ssiah#1626

Check out the whole article...I've highlighted the points of interest....

Messiah:

Heavenly Preexistence.

The conception of the preexistent Messiah is met with in Pesiḳ. R. xxxiii., xxxvi. (pp. 152b, 162, ed. Friedmann; comp. Yalḳ. i. 339). In accordance with the Messiological section of Enoch the former of these two passages says: "At the beginning of the creation of the world was born the King Messiah, who mounted into God's thoughts before the world was made"; and in the latter passage it is related that God contemplated the Messiah and his works before the creation of the world and concealed him under His throne; that Satan, having asked God who the Light was under His throne, was told it was the one who would bring him to shame in the future, and, being then allowed, at his request, to see the Messiah, he trembled and sank to the ground, crying out, "Truly this is the Messiah who will deliver me and all heathen kings over to hell." God calls the Messiah "Ephraim, my righteous Messiah."

The preexistent Messiah is presented also in the Haggadah (Pes. 54a; Ned. 39a; Yalḳ. i. 20; et al.), where the name of the Messiah is included among the seven things created before the world was made, and where he is called "Yinnon," reference being made to Ps. lxxii. 17


...Earthly Preexistence.

The conception met with in the rabbinical literature of an earthly preexistence of the Messiah must be distinguished from that of his heavenly preexistence. It occurs in various forms, representing, probably, different stages of development. First, he is expected to lead a hidden life and then to step forth suddenly. (On this conception of the sudden, unexpected appearance of the Messiah comp. Matt. xxiv. 27, 43-44, where it is said that the Messiah will come like a thief in the night or like a flash of lightning.)

...Then, again, the Messiah is represented as born, but not yet revealed. This conception appears as early as the second century in Justin Martyr's "Dialogus cum Tryphone" (ch. viii.), and in accordance with it is the passage Sanh. 98b, where R. Joshua ben Levi is quoted as saying that the Messiah is already born and is living in concealment at the gates of Rome. In Targ. Yer. to Micah iv. 8 the Messiah is on the earth, but because of the sins of the people he is still in hiding. Finally, the Messiah is thought of as born at a certain time in the past. This is the case in Yer. Ber. ii., which states that the Messiah was born at Bethlehem on the day the Temple was destroyed, and in the Apocalypse of Zerubbabel (see Jew. Encyc. i. 682), which declares he was born in the days of King David and is dwelling in Rome.

The notion, traceable to Ezek. xxxiv. 23 et al., that David himself is the Messiah, is another variation of the conception of earthly preexistence. It occurs in the apocalyptic fragment of the "Siddur" of R. Amram (see Jew. Encyc. i. 678, s.v. Apocalyptic Literature, 2) and in Yer. Ber. ii. The latter states that whether the King Messiah belongs to the living or to the dead, his name is David.

...................................................

As you can see......Jesus' claim to have been before Abraham is consistent with the Jewish thought that God created Messiah at the begining of creation and that he (God) kept him hidden....

If God created Messiah at the begining of creation as Jews think, then he most certainly would be before Abraham...If not bodily, he was there in Spirit....The Jews consider the Spirit of Messiah as the one hovering over the primodial water at the beginning of creation. Now, if the Jews consider the Spirit of Messiah as the one hovering over the uncreated waters, and the Memra of God (the creative word) is the agent responsible for the earth's creation, then these two (Spirit of Messiah and the Memra) may be one and the same....whoa....that's deep....gotta step back and consider that for a minute....

 

[thessalonian]

Those that created this 'trinity' were having people MURDERED for denying it.

Let me try this again. Can you name anyone around the council of Nicea who was killed for denying the trinity? I can tell you a pope or two were exiled and persecuted for believing in the trinity. Pope Liberius for instance. So back up your statements with facts or stop making them. Who was killed for denying the trinity. Arius? Tehonas of Marmarica?Secundus of Ptolemais? Names and dates please. Not just handwaving. Also be so kind as to show that those who were denying the trinity were doing no persecuting and that all trinitarians were. It's a red herring arguement though if you look in the Old Testament at such things.

It is becomming clear that you really haven't studied the history of the time. :-?

blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Simmer down boy. This is the wrong thread for that discussion.

Then stop participaing in it. :o

 

[Bubba]

Mutzrein,
Hopefully this commentary will help in the exegesis of Titus 2:13:

the great God and our Saviour Jesus--There is but one Greek article to "God" and "Saviour," which shows that both are predicated of one and the same Being. "Of Him who is at once the great God and our Saviour." Also (2) "appearing" (epiphaneia) is never by Paul predicated of God the Father (Joh 1:18; 1Ti 6:16), or even of "His glory" (as ALFORD explains it): it is invariably applied to CHRIST'S coming, to which (at His first advent, compare 2Ti 1:10) the kindred verb "appeared" (epephanee), Tit 2:11, refers (1Ti 6:14; 2Ti 4:1, 8). Also (3) in the context (Tit 2:14) there is no reference to the Father, but to Christ alone; and here there is no occasion for reference to the Father in the exigencies of the context. Also (4) the expression "great God," as applied to Christ, is in accordance with the context, which refers to the glory of His appearing; just as "the true God" is predicated of Christ, 1Jo 5:20. The phrase occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, but often in the Old Testament. De 7:21; 10:17, predicated of Jehovah, who, as their manifested Lord, led the Israelites through the wilderness, doubtless the Second Person in the Trinity. Believers now look for the manifestation of His glory, inasmuch as they shall share in it. Even the Socinian explanation, making "the great God" to be the Father, "our Saviour," the Son, places God and Christ on an equal relation to "the glory" of the future appearing: a fact incompatible with the notion that Christ is not divine; indeed it would be blasphemy so to couple any mere created being with God." A.R. Fausset

Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear Mutzrein?
Bubba

 

[Imagican]

Considering how deceptive the RCC was when it 'burned' people, there's no telling how many were accused of simply heresy for denying the 'trinity' therefore there being no records of their 'actual' crime other than heresy.

Your kinda hand waving here. What your telling me is you can't back up your statement. Now how many were burned for heresy? Can you list them? I want to see these records you have. Thanks.

Hand waving, perhaps. No Thess, you know I can back up my statements. Your just hoping that by doing so it will offer you further opportunities to refute what is offered. Obviously now the only thing you have to counter what I have stated is that I offered nothing other than my statements.

When you say "the RCC tortured and murdered" do you mean that Church officials, i.e. priests, Bishops, and Popes put people on the rack and tortured them? Can you show me the evidence of this. I do know that people were turned over to governments and governments did in fact put people to death for heresy. Perhaps you might want to read Romans 13 sometime. I need more than just your handwaving dude.

YES, I mean that at times CHURCH OFFICIALS were the ones ordering and carrying out tortures and murders. I can't say that there were any Popes that actually did the physical torturing or murder themselves, but through their encouragement and orders were these things done. And not just in Europe, but all over Central and South America, Mexico and the Caribbean. Come on my brother, you know that this is true. If you truly force me to start offering sources for others to learn the truth about this too, all you're doing is hurting your own cause.


Further you seem to think that because some did wrong then that proves the religion is wrong. Sorry man, but the Bible does not support that. It's the logic of a man. (hey, that's what you are).

I believe that the RCC did NOT start over with a 'new' religion, (Christianity). They simply introduced Christ into their pagan ritual that existed PREVIOUS to Christ. So, YES, in my opinion, it's the religion that bred the hate, not the opposite. And by hate I mean that any time we do NOT love our neighbors as ourselves, the only thing left is 'hate'.

I am not saying that Catholics did no wrong. Just asking you to support your accusations and show us that your not exaggerating in the name of "truth" and distorting the record because of your own hatred. Hatred does not just cause men to kill dude. Hatred causes men to distort the record to their own advantage and justify prejudice. I hate to say so but I have seen that out of you.

Thess, I have studied the beginnings of religion now for years. If what I offer appears to be 'hate', please believe that it is not. There are many things that one could call it but hate isn't one of them. I have had little influence as far as the RCC is concerned so there is nothing for me to hate there. But, I feel an obligation to warn anyone that will listen against this organization, for it practices things that are in MY OPINION Totally against the Bible itself. Since I believe that the Bible IS the Word of God, then i obviously believe that the RCC contains little if no 'truth' as far as God and Christ are concerned.

I have watched tons of documentaries that offer intricate details of the progression of the Catholic Church and the monstrous evils committed by the leaders of this religion and the effects of it's power over the WORLD at times, even now.

Are you offering that these documentaries on the Discovery Channel and such are complete and utter lies. That when they offer the progressive order of the Church and it's leaders that this information is completely fabricated with no basis in history?

They were mostly concerned with power and wealth and would stop at NOTHING to obtain more and more. There were many times in many countries where the religious leaders were KNOWN to have fostered plans of murdering government leaders in order to gain more power for themselves. And at times in different places the RCC had more power than kings and kings in their own countries.

What I offer is only the basest of facts. It gets so deep that I would hesitate to bore the members so in order to offer it. But, I believe that there are few here that are 'completely' unaware of what I offer including yourself. I can tell by your words that you neither admit nor deny what I have stated, you simply state that I have offered no proof. There is plenty and it is readily available to any that seek it. I have and suggest to any that are unsure or that don't believe what I have offered to follow up on the procurement of evidence on their own just as I have. It means a whole lot more that way than someone simply 'giving it to you'. But, if you insist I will start offering 'proof' of my statements. But, as I stated previous, I'm not really sure that this is what you truly desire for it can do NOTHING but bring more to the understanding of 'your' faith' in a 'negative' manor.

 

[John the Baptist]

--Who is being talked about in John 1:1-18?--

Who is being talked about in John 1:1-18?

The same one as Stephen was 'inspired' to tell us about in Acts 7:38 while being 'being full of the Holy Ghost, .." Acts 7:55

Who was it?? The sam God as seen in Exodus 19:3-5, and the same God as in Deuteronomy 4:12-13, and the same 'one' as seen in Exodus 19:16-19, and, and and! Colossians 1:14-19 + many more!!

God as the Son had a beginning, God Christ did not. Psalm 2:7 & Hebrews 1:5. This is the Everlasting Gospel! Revelation 14:6
ETERNAL!! IMMORTAL, 1 Timothy 1:16-17, 1 Timothy 6:14-16

---John

 

[gingercat]

vic wrote:

I'm saying nothing. The Bible says it all. Think like a first century Jew, like George suggested.

Was He lying? Was this a case of blasphemy or was Jesus in line with Exodus 3:14?

Check one, Yes or No. It's simple.

gingercat wrote;
Jesus is not saying He is God either.

Who is going to answer to this please?

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Then what did Jesus mean by, "I and my Father are one and the same"?

 

[thessalonian]

Imigican,

First of all I have not said that people didn't do some bad stuff. Now are you going to name one person who denied jesus was God as you do, that was murdered as you claim around the council of nicea? Are you going to claim that there were no persecutions by people who believe as you do? You see if there were persecutions by your type (which there were) then you are being hypoctirical. No more handwaving about discovery channel. Back up your stuff if your such an expert on the time period around Athanasis and Nicea.

 

[Imagican]

+JMJ+

Then what did Jesus mean by, "I and my Father are one and the same"?

Come on Fulton, if you are going to quote, quote. But please don't try and deceive those that don't know the Bible well enough to defend themselves against that which is NOT stated in the Bible.

Jesus stated that he and the Father are one, but it says nothing such as 'one and the same'.

 

[Imagican]

Imigican,

First of all I have not said that people didn't do some bad stuff. Now are you going to name one person who denied jesus was God as you do, that was murdered as you claim around the council of nicea? Are you going to claim that there were no persecutions by people who believe as you do? You see if there were persecutions by your type (which there were) then you are being hypoctirical. No more handwaving about discovery channel. Back up your stuff if your such an expert on the time period around Athanasis and Nicea.

Ok Thess, I was going to let the other one slide but this time I will answer. I NEVER stated ANYTHING about the Nicean Creed or the council of Nicea. I know that Arius was ex-communicated after the council for his beliefs that Jesus was NOT God but the Son of God. Only to later be accepted back with open arms by Constantine, (boy, was this guy confused).


Oooops, wife's ready gotta go eat. But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I'll be back.