Who is being talked about in John 1:1-18?

[Imagican]

Now Bubah,

I have addressed EVERY one of your points at one time or another on this forum. I ask YOU some questions.

If Jesus IS God, then explain how there can be things that God knows but Jesus doesn't.

Why would Jesus ask God to: Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

And why would Jesus, if He IS God, ask that 'this cup pass over me'?

And if Jesus IS God how could He be the 'firstborn of all creation'?

And if Jesus IS God then how is He the Son of God?

And if Jesus IS God then How does He sit at the right hand of God?

When Jesus is our King on this earth. How can He BE God if God still exists in heaven?

Why did Jesus state that His power came from God if He IS God?

Why would Christ state that the words that he offers are NOT HIS OWN but from God if HE IS GOD?

And Bubah, this goes ON AND ON................................

And if it's 'trinity' that you defend here. I've got one for ya: Let's say that 'you' weren't here to 'teach' me 'trinity', how would I EVER learn this 'man-made' doctrine? 'Trinity' is NOT in the Bible. Neither God, nor Christl, nor any of the apostles EVER MENTIONED a 'trinity'. If this doctrine had not been created by the RCC over TWO HUNDRED YEARS AFTER Christ's death, it would exist period.

And guys, isn't it strange that EVERY THING written in our Bible is written by a Jew. And the Jews know of NO 'trinity'. Yet two hundred years AFTER the death of Jesus, the Gentiles 'discover' a 'trinity'. Isn't that a bit strange? That those that murdered Christ would be chosen to reveal this 'ALL IMPORTANT' doctrine to the world? And that these had to FORCE others to accept it for over fifteen hundred years?

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein states,

“Bubba - I guess it is just as well that our salvation is not dependant on the need to follow or understand stuff like that.â€Â

If one is going to say a verse doesn’t say Jesus is God, he should be able to support his views. The scholars of the languages did not broad stroke their conclusions when translating. If language is to have meaning, we need ascertain what the author’s intent was and the rules associated with the language and if the words used are appropriately translated to keep that intent, especially, if we are trying to insert a doctrinal position.

In regards to Titus 2:13 and John 1:1, what scholars can you quote of any repute that will support your views or the church you attend? Modern day Arians, the Jehovah Witnesses have already gone down that road and have been found wanting.

In Christ love, Bubba

Bubba

I don't support any position that I hold fast to, as it pertains to scripture, by making reference to 'wisdom' emanating from man. Man's wisdom is exactly the reason that this whole man-made doctrine has come about. It is not of God. If you want to believe it, go for it, but the end result is a righteousness that is not of faith.

As regards the church I attend, it is a community church with brethren roots I understand. There are folks there who come from many different backgrounds. The pastors also come from diverse backgrounds and have held positions in different denominations. BUT that means nothing. These things have not been taught to me by the church. In fact, it is the opposite. When I became a Christian, it was the 'church' that told me Jesus was God. And when I saw the end result of this teaching I determined to know the Truth. Now I do - and it has set me free.

 

[Bubba]

Mutzrein,
God has placed individuals through out history, who have wisdom; intelligence and understanding to work out what most of us take for granted in God’s word. It is not to say, that these individuals have it all together in every aspect, but we would be foolish not to look at what theologians, experts of the languages and the Biblicist write and say. In regards to the Trinity, we have that term to describe what Scriptures speaks to in respect to the Godhead. Look at all the verses just for the Holy Spirit that I posted that show that the Holy Spirit is much more then an active force from the hand of God. Honestly read the references of Jesus’ Deity that I posted as well as others and ask, does the other camp have reason to believe as we do? I would hope you would say yes.
In Christ Alone, Bubba
ps I will be gone for 3 weeks,my son and I are going to Israel.

 

[mutzrein]

Bubba

Thankyou for your reply and I appreciate the manner in which you 'speak'.

I trust you will have a wonderful time in Israel and look forward to further discussion on your return. May I ask the purpose of your trip?

 

[Bubba]

If Jesus IS God, then explain how there can be things that God knows but Jesus doesn't.

Though equal with God, Jesus condescended and became man (Phil. 2:5). Being fully man as well as fully God (Col. 2:9), the aspect you are referring to, is in regards to His man nature. In regards to His God nature we read in John 16:30 and John 21:17, that He knows all men and Peter says He knows all things.

Why would Jesus ask God to: Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

This is a difficult question in regards to the forgiveness aspect, Stephen said something simular when he was stoned; this may simply be the beneficence of God and His Spirit in Stephen not wanting anyone one to perish, yet we know that not all will receive Christ as Saviour. Either person nonetheless is showing their Spirit filled human nature and desire to see people saved from their sins.

And why would Jesus, if He IS God, ask that 'this cup pass over me'?

In respect to His man nature He asks “this cup to be removed†from Him, which the Arian doesn’t seem to be able to grasp and nor the Monophysite who sees only Deity, yet Scripture shows that Christ has two natures (a mystery).

And if Jesus IS God how could He be the 'firstborn of all creation'?

This verse is speaking to His preeminence over creation and the honor and dignity the heir of all creation has. For in the same paragraph we have Scripture claiming all things were created by Him and for Him and Hebrews 3:4 states that God builds all things.

And if Jesus IS God then how is He the Son of God?

Same species do not beget something different. Though we are limited by the words of man to fully understand how The Father can have a son, especially when we mortals must have a physical relationship with our wives, but Scripture is clear, The Father proclaims “My beloved Son†(Matt. 3:17, 17:5), who like a good Father, is mighty proud of. The other mystery is how can Jesus be a Son of God if He has always been? Yet, Micah 5:1-2 says just that. Your problem is that your God is to easily explained, my God is not. “His ways are not my waysâ€Â.

And if Jesus IS God then How does He sit at the right hand of God?

When Jesus condescended as stated in Phil. 2:5-10, He let loose of all claims that placed Him equal to the Father. Yet, as verses 1 through 4 of Phil. 2 state; though equal we esteem others as greater then ourselves. Verse 5 gives the example of Christ and the Father for us to consider. The other aspect is, though President Bush is much more highly esteem then me, we are nonetheless equal, only our positions are different, there is an order in the Godhead (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

When Jesus is our King on this earth. How can He BE God if God still exists in heaven?

You are trying to make your understanding fit into your own creation of God. Again, just because you do not understand how Jesus can rule in the flesh and the Father in the Spirit with the Holy Spirit, you cry foul. My understanding of that Celestial City, is that it has continuity with the New Earth and the New Heaven, may be the Godhead has a similar continuity, time will tell.

Why did Jesus state that His power came from God if He IS God?

I believe it has to with Jesus being in total submission to the Fathers will, less you forget this same Saviour claimed He would raise Himself in John10:17, that sounds like a lot of power to me.

Why would Christ state that the words that he offers are NOT HIS OWN but from God if HE IS GOD?

Again, He descended from on High and was placed here on this earth to do what the first Adam couldn’t do, that is, to save our behinds from the flames, which He did by being totally obedient to the will of God. "And the Word became flesh and lived among us and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth? "

I do not believe anyone can have a good understanding of Jesus apart from the Godhead. Work through the Holy Spirit as Deity verses I posted. In the mean time I will be gone for a while, I am going with my son to Israel.

Bubba

 

[Imagican]

Bubba,

I don't mean to argue but please take into consideration the answers that I offer to your post:

From Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry:



If Jesus is not God, then explain...

1.Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.)

Thomas was a 'doubter' to begin with. He didn't even believe that the person who he was confronted by was Christ. No doubt that this 'doubter' was overwhelmed when confronted with the truth and I find it no surprise what soever that this man called Jesus his Lord and His God. But the statement of an individual such as this does NOT a doctrine make.
2.Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?

What seems to be the more pertinent part of Hebrews 1 is this: 5. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? To answer your question and agree that this is an example of God calling the Son God, this would negate EVERYTHING else in the chapter. So, I am not a scholar of Hebrew or Greek, but I bet if I was that this verse is able to be interpreted in other ways. Not an excuse, just a probable explanation.
3.Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)?

Henry has offered an exellent explanation concerning Memra, (or was it Georges). But I believe that the Word is NOT simply Jesus, but the Wisdom of God that was GIVEN to Jesus to give to us.

4.Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?

I don't really understand this question so I will pass on this one.
5.Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18)?

I don't know what would make you believe that the Jews claiming that Jesus' claim that He was the Son of God thus making Him 'equal' with God indicates IN ANY WAY, that Jesus IS God. The Jews also accused Him of being a drunkard and the Son of satan but we know that He was NEITHER of these.

6.What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God.

I don't know, you tell me. I don't believe that the religious order of the time EVER accused Jesus of claiming to be God.

7.How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?

Wow, I believe that you must have 'slipped' on this one. For Jesus HIMSELF claimed that there were things that ONLY the Father knew and that the Son Himself DID NOT KNOW.

8.How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?

Because through Christ ALL MEN WERE CREATED. And I don't believe this is meant literally because if it was then Christ told a lie. He stated that there would come a time in the end that many would come to Him bragging about all that they had done in His name. His answer? Go away from me for I KNOW NOT WHO YOU ARE.
9.How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?

Dude, Jesus has been empower by God Himself: to Heal the sick, walk on water, feed multitudes from a few fish and a couple of loaves of bread, to die and be reserected. Now you tell me, upon the cross, if Jesus WAS/Is God, why did He cry out, 'My Father, why hath thou forsaken me"?

10.How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?


Because Christ IS the Son of God and died for my sins. By accepting Him into my heart, He dwells within me. God CANNOT dwell within me for I am STILL A SINNER. If it weren't for Christ God could not even acknowledge my existence.

11.How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?

Because Jesus IS the Son of God. Previous to our creation Jesus and God existed in heaven. And because that is God's will that Christ represent Him.
For Christ Himself stated that the words which He offered were NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN Him of the Father.

12.How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?

Because He was MADE THIS WAY by the Father, Remember: the 'firstborn of ALL CREATION. He has been God's Son BEFORE the creation of man and through Christ was man created FOR CHRIST.

13.How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?

Jesus Christ can Do or Be ANYTHING that the Father desires. God can empower YOU to be what He wants YOU to be. So, how dificult could it be to understand what has been offered to the Son?

14.How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?

Easy, a man can be your Lord and Master. That just points to authority. The government is your Lord and Master so long as you live in this country. You may not call it that but it is. And Christ is OVER ALL CREATION. So, He is certainly our Lord and Master.

15.How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?

Read below.

16.How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?

Come on now, this argument is moot. The Jews, God's CHOSEN people NEVER believed that God Himself was going to visit this earth. They knew that the Messiah would be the Son of God. So getting caught up in semantics is hardly a valid argument.

17.How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?

Through faith?

18.How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?

God did NOT create ALL things 'by Himself', for the Word specifically states 'let US create man in OUR image. So there is a pure indication that there were MORE than one entity in heaven upon creation. All things WERE CREATED by the power of God though. What He has He is able to give to whom He will. No surprise that His Son would be so empowered.

19.How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?

See all the above.

20.Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)

NO NO NO, we are to worship ONLY ONE GOD. The Bible NEVER says that we are not to worship Christ AS the Son of God. Bubba, I have had this argument over and over with those that have been 'brainwashed' by the churches. What is worship? To worship is to adore. What is to adore? To adore is to LOVE. So, in this respect I worship my wife and children, my mother and my father. What we were told is NOT TO WORSHIP ANYTHING OTHER THAN GOD AS GOD. Now the church teaches that what I offer here is 'wrong' Why? Because if you accept what I am offering, your church leaders should be worshiping YOU. Instead they ignore what worship really is and teach YOU to worship them, as in turn they worship power and dollars.


21.In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.

God has NEVER been seen by ANY MAN. Moses was shown a 'glimpse of His 'backside'. But other than this NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD. But, many men have seen Jesus Christ including Paul who didn't even believe that Jesus was the Son of God util their meeting.

22.Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.

As a sign perhaps that Jesus represented the Father.

23.Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?

Come on, this one is obvious too. Jesus WAS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE FATHER. He stated this over and over. That His power and the words that He offered WERE NOT HIS OWN BUT GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER.

24.Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?

God created 'life' to begin with. Jesus brings life through the sacrifice that He became.
25.Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)?

It's a 'Jewish' thing.

Bubba, I've heard it all before. i have not JUST begun my walk. I am WELL AWARE of the single lines of scripture that the churches use in order to falsely worship Christ AS God. Let me offer you this my friend and brother. Jesus was asked by his followers: " How should we pray?" I leave it up to you to offer the answer yourself. Now, is there ONE WORD that He taught us concerning PRAYING TO HIM? And your 'trinity' already teaches that Father and Son ARE SEPARATE PERSONS, (three persons in ONE). So, unless you believe that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are EXACTLY THE SAME THING, we were NEVER TOLD to pray to JESUS AS GOD.Jesus IS The intercessor. What does THIS mean to YOU? That God is the intercessor? Hardly for if that were the case there would have been no NEED for Jesus Christ.

 

[Bubba]

Imagican'
Sorry about that, I didn't notice you had responded to the other post. We could argue on your responses, but to be honest, I do not think I will change your mind. What I will do instead, is get ready for bed and include you in my prayers.
Take care, Bubba

 

[Imagican]

Thank you Bubba, for I can use all the prayers that I can get. I will offer one for you too.

Until next time.

God Bless ya brother.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Imagican

I liked the way you dealt with Bubba's list. Not with you all the way on every point but the premise is right.

You know there was a time when as a young Christian I was hoodwinked by the 'church' into believing the trinity. Some time later I went through some very serious and difficult times - when I can only say I came to know and understand the amazing grace & love of Christ. In the midst of it I was troubled by what I thought was right and like Saul was having a hard time kicking against the pricks. Then God reminded me of something I had experienced when climbing a small mountain in the US many years earlier. While I was trying to reconcile my position of having gone a considerable distance in the wrong direction, I wanted to just 'jump over' to where I knew I should be if I wanted to reach my goal. But I couldn't. It was like a light going on. I had to retrace my steps and everything I had built on to the point that I had started from. So it wasn't just a matter of changing my mind and heading off in another direction. It was like a repentance - going back over every step, acknowledging that each one had led me further from my goal. And you know what, as I did this I was moving closer and closer to the starting point - to the solid rock which is Christ Jesus. Once I was there and without the incumberances of notions implanted in my mind from others I was free to walk the path that I knew would lead me to my goal.

I wonder how many others there are who are troubled by the trinity, and can't reconcile what they have been told with what they see in scripture.

It's a difficult mountain to climb down from.

 

[Disciple88]

We KNOW that Christ IS the Son of God. What we DON'T know through scripture is that Christ IS God. I know that many believe this, but this is because they are 'taught' such and the Word offers only the vaguest of indications that this is even a possibility.

We DO have the Father, (God), stating Himself that Jesus Christ is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN, and His Son. We have Christ offering that He IS the Son of God. What we don't have is anything other than 'Emanuel', (a name, being interpreted as God among us), and a doubter name Thomas calling Christ his Lord and his God. It seems that when all the evidence is weighed in, there is LITTLE that points to Christ as God Himself, but MUCH that offers that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God. Christ Himself states that His power was given by God. He indicates that God is 'greater' than He. He prays to the Father. He states that there is knowledge that He does not even possess but ONLY the Father Himself is privy to.

When one takes EVERYTHING into consideration, it seems that 'trinity' falls well short of anything that is rock solid in man's understanding of it. And, if what I have offered is true, then to make Jesus EQUAL with God, or to make Him God Himself, would be to take upon ourselves to make Christ into an idol of worship that goes against what we have been commanded of God Himself.

All I can say is that I know NO 'trinity' and I can testify to the presence of Father AND Son in my life. I KNOW God, and I KNOW His Son, my Savior, Jesus Christ. Other than this, I KNOW nothing of any consequence to one's salvation. I KNOW that my relationship with the Father, (God), came about through the acceptance of the Son, (Jesus Christ). And I KNOW that the Spirit exist for it has offered much understanding and conviction throughout my walk.



MEC

Thank you Imagican, you are speaking for me too :angel:

Hmm, well, i believe, my friend, that you need to do more reasearch. Christ is in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. There is much scripture that points to Him as God, but i will focus on two for you.

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.' "

The name I AM in hebrew is God's most holy name Yahweh. God gave this name to Moses at the buring bush "And God said to Moses,' I AM WHO I AM.' " Christ in John 8 is clearly claiming to be God.

I encourage people to give more scripture references to Christ as being God.

If any wants to have a more detailed discussion, email me at Liquidsoap88@hotmail.com

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[thessalonian]

Imigican,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those that may be intersested in who has a 'better' grasp of their history, you may find this information interesting. Thess, please note the blue highlighted area.

You said that Constantine reinstated Arius. I said he did not and that he tried to get the Church to. You also indicated that the Catholics killed Arius. I disputed that. Thanks for supporting my contentions with your Wikepedia article.

:-D

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Imagican and Thessalonian, if you both would like to continue your debate on Constantine and Arius then by all means do so in another topic.

This topic is about John 1:1-18. Thank you.

 

[thessalonian]

I will ask my question in another thread. Sorry.

 

[Imagican]

Imigican,

What you don't understand with your threats of proof is that I agree there were persecutions. Stop threating me. There were persecutions on both sides. That is why I said you would be a hypocrit. Are you going to acknowledge that the persecutions were on both sides. Probably not because part of your arguement is these persecutions prove where the truth is. They do not.

I will say that SOME of the punishment that these people recieved by the state was justifiable. Romans 13 says that governments act within the will of God "by the sword". Church leaders should not have been involved in torture and some were. Though you like to broad brush all the Church leaders as evil. That is a huge strech. Tell me imigican, what percentage of all the Catholic bishops at the time of Arius do you have evidence of there being actual abusive acts toward another person? There were I believe 800 bishops at one council so you can use this to calculate your percentage. So present your evidence of atrocities and let's put a number on it. Let's get some sort of a total for the first 1500 years of Christianity for all the Bishops that existed and then all the ones who actually persecuted someone. My guess is the number would be less than 1% that actually persecuted. But it's like anything else. The vast majority of priests have not abused children buy according to people on these message boards all priests are child molesters. No you are prejudiced Imigican. You can't help it.

Blessings

Thess,

I wouldn't know where to begin 'guessing' about percentages. What I DO know is that what I have offered took place as I have offered it. I have yet to go into explicit detail of the RCC's coruption and have opted instead to offer the basics.

The persecutions to which I refer, were mostly of a 'later' date than 'at the beginning' of 'trinity'. All the way up to as recently as the mid-1800's.

Thess, I have 'yet' to try and offer any desceptions concerning the RCC. I have offered what I have learned. And I already stated 'please' don't take my comment about the 'Divsovery' channel and try to 'run with it'. That is simply one source that I thought that many would be familiar with and I'm sure that I'm not the 'only' one on these forums that have watched these documentaries to which I refer.

My studies are vast and varied. I have used VERY little internet information but boy there are TONS and much of it is quite accurate.

I am predjudiced, against 'un-truth' and 'man-made' doctrines that are flaunted by many churches. This doesn't make me a 'bad guy' does it?