Who Is "HE" That Is Taken Out Of The Way ?

[Edward]

I think we see it is when he sets up an image of himself in the holy place, (abomination of desolation) and proclaims he is God, is the start of the great tribulation.


“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)… For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15,21


This is when God allows him to be revealed… in his own time.

When he goes into the temple and declares himself God, from that day, the return of the Lord is 1260 days (3 1/2 yrs) later. We should be BBQing by then.

Hey we agreed on an aspect of it!

 

[Shilohsfoal]

HI JLB

Hey, we do much better discussing the things of God, then the things of this world.

Yes. My chronology of the last days is that the great tribulation will come upon the earth. I can't imagine that there are so many references to the great tribulation, and that Jesus used it as a sign for us to recognize the last days...if we weren't going to be here to see the sign. Now, whether the Antichrist is known before the great tribulation or he is revealed through the works of the great tribulation, I'm not sure.

Some time after the great tribulation has begun, and I think Daniel tends to infer that it will be half way through a seven year stretch, Jesus is going to return. This is described to us by both Paul and John in his writing of the Revelation of Jesus. After that time, all who remain on the earth, the 'left behind' will suffer the wrath of God that is released as bowl judgments that we are told about from the scroll.

The 'left behind' group will lay dead in their graves while those who were gathered by Jesus live out a 1,000 year reign right here on the earth. After that, Satan will be released again for a short time, and I'm not really clear on 'why' that is, but the Scriptures say that it will happen. Then everyone will be called to the Great White Throne judgement. Every one who has ever lived, from Adam to whoever the last man standing is, will stand before God and we come to the books.

God bless,
Ted

Daniel doesn't refer to the great tribulation taking place in the middle of anything.
Daniel wrote that the great tribulation is at the time of the end when the resurrection takes place.

Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

The son of perdition is revealed to those who have been paying attention to Daniel 11 in verse 21.

Daniel 11:21
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Those who had not been paying attention to Daniel 11 would not know who the man of sin is at this point .
They may not know untill the end if they don't understand.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

When he goes into the temple and declares himself God, from that day, the return of the Lord is 1260 days (3 1/2 yrs) later. We should be BBQing by then.

Hey we agreed on an aspect of it!

That's how long the two witnesses occupy Jerusalem.
1260 days.
They must be friends.

 

[Consecrated Life]

If there is a pretrib rapture then the Holy Spirit would go to Heaven with the Believers who have been raptured. So at that time there would be no Holy Spirit on earth so coud be said to have withdrawn from the earth.

Why would the Restrainer being taken of of the way, so the antichrist can be revealed in his own time, mean the Holy Spirit is confined somehow to heaven?
JLB

Because the Holy Spirit is the restrainer .
Where else would you expect the Holy Spirit to be " taken away" too, if not back to where He was originally sent from?
Heaven is Home .

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Because the Holy Spirit is the restrainer .
Where else would you expect the Holy Spirit to be " taken away" too, if not back to where He was originally sent from?
Heaven is Home .

I don't believe the holy spirit will leave.From my understanding the holy spirit stays with the believer even as the unbelievers are consumed.

Revelation 7​

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”


You need to ask yourself what these who come out of great tribulation were baptised in.

 

[JLB]

When he goes into the temple and declares himself God, from that day, the return of the Lord is 1260 days (3 1/2 yrs) later. We should be BBQing by then.

Hey we agreed on an aspect of it!

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:6



But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Revelation 12:14


Sorry bro, but the Church will be here on earth during the 1260 days you referred to.



JLB

 

[miamited]

Hi Shilohsfoal

Daniel wrote that the great tribulation is at the time of the end when the resurrection takes place.

Right!!! Very good! That's exactly what I said. But Daniel does give an indication that the last days of tribulation will be the last 7 year period and he then says that in the middle of that period, the things that the Antichrist will do, will be happening. Here are Daniel's words as recorded in my translation:

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Here, it is considered by most, I believe that the 'he' is the Antichrist. Now there are some who say that no, it's Jesus, but the rest of the context sure doesn't make that clear. Is Jesus going to set up an 'abomination that causes desolation'? Is there an end that's going to be poured out on Jesus? As I'm reading it, it seems pretty clear that Daniel is referring to the final Antichrist here.
If that's the case, then we are told that his rising will come when the final 7 years begin. Then in the middle of that time 'he' will bring about the abomination and 'he' will go to the end that is decreed for him. That is that he will be cast into the lake of fire. That's the final event that the Scriptures tell us of 'what' happens to Satan, and all of those who oppose God.

Daniel doesn't refer to the great tribulation taking place in the middle of anything.

Uhhh, yes he does. In the middle of the 'seven'... But no, it's not the great tribulation. That's already going to be going on. No, you're right that the great tribulation doesn't come in the middle of anything, but then I didn't say that it did.

From my post: "My chronology of the last days is that the great tribulation will come upon the earth."

Then I wrote: "Some time after the great tribulation has begun, and I think Daniel tends to infer that it will be half way through a seven year stretch,..."

So, nowhere in all of that do I say that the 'great tribulation' is going to come up in the middle of anything...just as you are agreeing. BTW my reference was to Daniel 9. That's where you'll read of the timeline that I'm proposing. Yes, Daniel 11 has a lot to say on the same subject of the tribulation and there is a certain chronology in that passage, also. However, in Daniel 11 it refers to those who were already raised from the great tribulation. So some of this account is after the things that Daniel 9 speaks of, but looking at it after it has happened.

Thanks.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JLB]

Uhhh, yes he does. In the middle of the 'seven'... But no, it's not the great tribulation. That's already going to be going on. No, you're right that the great tribulation doesn't come in the middle of anything, but then I didn't say that it did.

The great tribulation begin in the middle of the week.


The great tribulation is 31/2 years, 1260 days, or a time,times, and a half of time.


Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:13-17



World wide persecution (tribulation) of Christians is for those three and a half years.

 

[Edward]

World wide persecution (tribulation) of Christians is for those three and a half years.

That sounds terrible. But if it is so, and it could be because I seem to be the only one hoping for a flaming chariot ride out of here, so maybe we should be discussing what caliber for Nephilim?!

As it was in the days of Noah, right? Well in Noahs day there were Nephilim giants. And Joshua never finished killing off everyone God told him too. Remember? And those areas are the same areas that have been under dispute all along. The Golan Heights and all that.

So far Sasquatch sighting are all when sighted they always run and get away from us. But what would you do if you seen one and he turned and charged you?! 223's aren't going to take him down unless you have a platoon with you.

I think they are living underground and increasing their numbers...and being restrained!! and we do wrestle with pricipalities and powers and so I think the sasquatch costumes are cloned bodies for the evil spirits or demons to inhabit. And they come out to hunt deer. I expect they like venison, I do. But one day the restrainer will be taken away, and they are going to come out in numbers. How would you like to find yourself surrounded by 8 or ten bigfoots acting aggressively?!

 

[JLB]

That sounds terrible. But if it is so, and it could be because I seem to be the only one hoping for a flaming chariot ride out of here, so maybe we should be discussing what caliber for Nephilim?!

As it was in the days of Noah, right? Well in Noahs day there were Nephilim giants. And Joshua never finished killing off everyone God told him too. Remember? And those areas are the same areas that have been under dispute all along. The Golan Heights and all that.

So far Sasquatch sighting are all when sighted they always run and get away from us. But what would you do if you seen one and he turned and charged you?! 223's aren't going to take him down unless you have a platoon with you.

I think they are living underground and increasing their numbers...and being restrained!! and we do wrestle with pricipalities and powers and so I think the sasquatch costumes are cloned bodies for the evil spirits or demons to inhabit. And they come out to hunt deer. I expect they like venison, I do. But one day the restrainer will be taken away, and they are going to come out in numbers. How would you like to find yourself surrounded by 8 or ten bigfoots acting aggressively?!

They are our bread to consume!


JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

I don't believe the holy spirit will leave.From my understanding the holy spirit stays with the believer even as the unbelievers are consumed.

​

Circle back to the original questions then.
Who is the Restrainer ?
What is the restrainer currently restraining ?
Who takes the Restrainer out of the way ?
Where is the Restrainer taken too, after he is taken out of the way ?

 

[Edward]

They are our bread to consume!


JLB

Sasquatch barbeque anyone?

Some of these things are going to be unstoppable even with guns. So we can't depend on guns. He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. But I think that guns are for when there is not time to pray. Jesus did say have a few guns and that is sufficient.

The Aliens (or sasquatches) may act friendly. But you have to remember, deception is their primaty weapon so this is how it goes...
I am friendly and am here to help you...
He's lying! (Boom!!)
We eat tonight!

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Hi Shilohsfoal

Right!!! Very good! That's exactly what I said. But Daniel does give an indication that the last days of tribulation will be the last 7 year period and he then says that in the middle of that period, the things that the Antichrist will do, will be happening. Here are Daniel's words as recorded in my translation:

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Here, it is considered by most, I believe that the 'he' is the Antichrist. Now there are some who say that no, it's Jesus, but the rest of the context sure doesn't make that clear. Is Jesus going to set up an 'abomination that causes desolation'? Is there an end that's going to be poured out on Jesus? As I'm reading it, it seems pretty clear that Daniel is referring to the final Antichrist here.
If that's the case, then we are told that his rising will come when the final 7 years begin. Then in the middle of that time 'he' will bring about the abomination and 'he' will go to the end that is decreed for him. That is that he will be cast into the lake of fire. That's the final event that the Scriptures tell us of 'what' happens to Satan, and all of those who oppose God.

Uhhh, yes he does. In the middle of the 'seven'... But no, it's not the great tribulation. That's already going to be going on. No, you're right that the great tribulation doesn't come in the middle of anything, but then I didn't say that it did.

From my post: "My chronology of the last days is that the great tribulation will come upon the earth."

Then I wrote: "Some time after the great tribulation has begun, and I think Daniel tends to infer that it will be half way through a seven year stretch,..."

So, nowhere in all of that do I say that the 'great tribulation' is going to come up in the middle of anything...just as you are agreeing. BTW my reference was to Daniel 9. That's where you'll read of the timeline that I'm proposing. Yes, Daniel 11 has a lot to say on the same subject of the tribulation and there is a certain chronology in that passage, also. However, in Daniel 11 it refers to those who were already raised from the great tribulation. So some of this account is after the things that Daniel 9 speaks of, but looking at it after it has happened.

Thanks.

God bless,
Ted

According to Daniel the persecution of the saints begins 42 months before the time of the end.But he does not refer to that persecution as great tribulation.
Daniel refers to the destruction of the middle east by the king of the north as the great tribulation.
Jesus said the abomination of desolation placed in Jerusalem would take place at that time.

Imagine the US armed forces raining down nuclear missiles all over the middle eastern countries that attack Israel.
That's great tribulation.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Circle back to the original questions then.
Who is the Restrainer ?
What is the restrainer currently restraining ?
Who takes the Restrainer out of the way ?
Where is the Restrainer taken too, after he is taken out of the way ?

That's why I believe Paul should have stuck to preaching the gospel and left the prophecies of Daniel alone.He has caused to many questions that don't seem to be questions in Daniel 11.

Read Daniel 11:21-45 and tell me what is holding the king of the north back?
I don't see anything in those verses holding the king of the north back.It appears that the time of the end is a time appointed and the man of sin goes forth to destroy exactly when he is supposed to.After he is attacked.

Daniel 11:44
But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

 

[ezrider]

Gosh!!! You're pretty good! That was exactly why I asked the question.

Now you have answered my question. After reading your answer, I can see that we aren't in agreement on what this piece of Scripture is supposed to be revealing to us, and we're likely not going to be able to come to any agreement. I say that because our understanding is just so diametrically opposed.

God bless,
Ted

I see no requirement that dictates we must be in agreement to gain understanding of another's position, and I'm all good with that. I have believed in the past as you do, so I do have somewhat of an understanding of your position, but I see it differently now. You don't have to agree with me, I'm not asking you to. But I do not practice a Faith anymore that has me looking for some Antichrist. I do not read the scriptures anymore looking for prophecies of a coming Antichrist. I am free to follow after the Spirit Christ, and that is sufficient for me.

If you are a follower of Christ, then why do you look for the coming of an Antichrist? Jesus said lo, I come, in the pages of the book it is written of me. Moses and the prophets spoke of His coming. So why is it that so many Christians who call themselves sinners are interested in and study the scriptures with an eye toward prophecies about a coming Antichrist in the pages of the book?

Do you know what the workings of Satan are? For simplicity sake, his workings on Adam and Eve in the garden, and what lie was told.

Now when God says if you want to believe a lie, then God himself would send you strong strong delusion so that you would believe the lie. Have you ever imagined, or have you ever considered in your heart what that delusion might entail. Have you ever considered that people who set out with intent looking for an Antichrist might just find what they want, with God sending them the strong delusion so that they believe it?

As I said, I used to believe as you. I used to study the scripture looking for prophecies about some coming Antichrist, that's what we were taught to believe, just as you said in your quote below concerning Daniel 9:27 and how most believe. But do you want to know what changed for me? Well, quite simply I had to get out my own way. I had to learn how to follow the Spirit instead of trying to lead the Spirit.

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Here, it is considered by most, I believe that the 'he' is the Antichrist. Now there are some who say that no, it's Jesus, but the rest of the context sure doesn't make that clear. Is Jesus going to set up an 'abomination that causes desolation'?

Moses and the Prophets spoke of a new covenant. Yet many are convinced (or deluded) into believing the a whole passage dedicated to the coming of Messiah the Prince, Jesus the Christ, somehow has the Antichrist making a covenant? That's what doesn't make any sense. What does make sense is that in the middle of Jesus's ministry he was put to death, crucified; and by his blood had confirmed the promised covenant. Take, drink, for this is the blood of the new covenant..... Where is the Antichrist in that?

What you have quoted in red is not correct. You are confusing Daniel 12:11 with Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Because of the overspreading of wickedness he shall make it desolate. For the overspreading of wickedness, Jesus was sacrificed on the cross. But how did he make it desolate? By his death. Who are the desolate?

Galatians 4:22-27
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Isaiah 54:1
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear;
break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child:
for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Romans 7:1-4
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[JLB]

Read Daniel 11:21-45 and tell me what is holding the king of the north back?
I don't see anything in those verses holding the king of the north back.It appears that the time of the end is a time appointed and the man of sin goes forth to destroy exactly when he is supposed to.After he is attacked.

The restraining is preventing him from being revealed before his own time.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The restraining is preventing him from being revealed before his own time.

The king of the north wasn't even around 2000 years ago.He wasn't around to restrain.He doesn't even become king till Daniel 11:21 and he dies in Daniel 11:45.

The man of sin doesn't live thousands of years.Hes just a man.
Of course no one would know his name till he becomes king.So why would Paul even bother writing about Daniel's prophecy thousands of years before he would be revealed?

Makes no sense why Paul would bother with it.

 

[JLB]

The king of the north wasn't even around 2000 years ago.He wasn't around to restrain.He doesn't even become king till Daniel 11:21 and he dies in Daniel 11:45.

The man of sin doesn't live thousands of years.Hes just a man.
Of course no one would know his name till he becomes king.So why would Paul even bother writing about Daniel's prophecy thousands of years before he would be revealed?

Makes no sense why Paul would bother with it.

Paul was teaching the Church about the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him, and claifying to them and those of us who would read the scriptures afterward, that the Day of the Lord comes after the antichrist is revealed, at that the Lord would destroy him at His coming.

Some were teaching that the Day of Christ had come and gone; that the resurrection was past.




JLB

 

[reddogs]

Hi reddogs


I guess we first have to agree on the translation of the passage in question. For me, the passage makes reference to two separate entities. Both of which are referred to as 'he' after they are written as the subject of their respective sentences.

That passage uses the pronoun 'he' several times. In the beginning it is a subject reference to the Antichrist as he is the first name mentioned as the subject of the sentence. But then the writer draws our attention to someone else that the writer says is holding back this coming power of Antichrist for a while. Then the writer, immediately after making the subject of the new sentence this unnamed power, refers to that power as 'he' also and says that this 'he' will be removed to allow the other 'he' to do what he is set to do. There are multiple he's in the passage, but they aren't all tied to the same subject in both sentences.

Now, if you agree with my understanding that there are two 'he's', then the following question:

Please explain, in your understanding, 'who' the two he's are? Is it your claim that the first 'he' is all of Pagan Rome and that the second 'he' is Papal Rome? Surely you jest. That would mean that the Antichrist to beat all antichrists who is supposed to cause all of this tribulation isn't a person, but is a religious structure that has been around now for nearly 1800 years, or so. Who then is going to bring in the Antichrist since Pagan Rome really isn't a thing anymore.

Otherwise, if you believe that all of the pronouns 'he' are always referring to the same entity in this passage, then my previous post stands. How does the sentence structure make sense that all of the 'he's' are the same 'he'.

God bless,
Ted

Pagan Rome was holding back the antichrist entity, and once it fell, Papal Rome grew in its place, history is unflinching in showing this...

 

[miamited]

Pagan Rome was holding back the antichrist entity, and once it fell, Papal Rome grew in its place, history is unflinching in showing this...

Hi reddogs

I'm not sure I agree that pagan Rome was holding back the antichrist. Why or how would people be able to hold back the antichrist. I mean, pagan Rome is just a group of people who, by definition of pagan, don't honor the one true God. But wasn't that true of just about every other dynasty that ever held place upon the earth? Apart from Israel, there has never been a 'pagan' nation that didn't hold back the 'antichrist' as much or more than some group of people that you're referring to a 'pagan' Rome.

I think it takes a little stronger being to hold back the power of antichrist upon the earth.

God bless,
Ted