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Who is Mystery Babylon ?

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If Mystery Babylon is Jersualem how come Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of the martyrs of Jesus in Verse 6? Where are all the dead Christian martyrs killed by Jerusalem? I see that the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church have killed millions of Christians around the world. So it must be Rome according to that. And in the future if God is going to save the Jews (Israelites) by waking them up so that they recognize Jesus as the Messiah, why would Jerusalem be Mystery Babylon?


Now if there wasn't (for some STRANGE reason) a suitable answer for that question in scripture, I'd entertain you answer. But it is found in scripture. Stormcrow pointed to some of it.

Now what about this?

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

They killed their own Messiah!

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

You do know that Paul, before becoming Paul, was responsible for the death of many a converter.



And in the future if God is going to save the Jews (Israelites) by waking them up so that they recognize Jesus as the Messiah, why would Jerusalem be Mystery Babylon?
Now why would Paul say this?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
We are sinners, just as Israel had sinned against God, yet HE still finds it in HIS heart to offer us salvation, so why not them also? Remember, it rains upon the righteous and unrighteous and God is no respecter or persons.
 
akjv i once believe that mystery babylon cant be jerusalem. it is read up in revalation where the two witnesses are killed.

that beloved city that city called spiritual sodom and gommorah, the one where they crucified the lord.

if one honestly looks at modern judaism and what they say its very true.

and if you doubt my stance on isreal and what i believe on them. might i suggest reading my siggy and also see my avatar.
 
It is sad that we seem to not have the heart to apply ourselves to the Scriptures so that, before the Lord, we can discover the meanings of the symbols used to describe THE HARLOT.
Brings to mind a priest's outfit doesnt it?
 
I see lots of maybe's and suppositions, but I can find nowhere that the symbols applied to this harlot by the Lord have been set forth from Scripture.
{1} Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, {2}"Tell the sons of Israel to raise a contribution for Me; from every man whose heart moves him you shall raise My contribution. {3} "This is the contribution which you are to raise from them: gold, silver and bronze, {4} blue, purple and scarlet material, fine linen, goat hair, {5} rams' skins dyed red, porpoise skins, acacia wood, {6} oil for lighting, spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense, {7} onyx stones and setting stones for the ephod and for the breastpiece. {8} "Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them. {9} "According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it. Exodus 25:1-9 (NASB)

{4} The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, Revelation 17:4 (NASB)

Gee...sure sounds like the priesthood of the Mosaic Covenant to me. :chin

BTW, it took me 10 seconds to find the verse from Exodus. Get yourself a free copy of Bible Explorer 4,* then get all the free add-on books.

There's no excuse for not understanding this stuff or for pleading ignorance or charging others with "speculation" when it's ALL right in the OT to be had at your finger tips. :shame

If you have a special revelation as to who Mystery Babylon is, please, do tell. :thumbsup

* BE4 was free when I got it. I see they are charging $15 for it now. Would still be a great value at twice the price.
 
Yet more evidence from the Old Testament as to whom "Mystery Babylon" was:

{1}
The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, {2} "Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house and proclaim there this word and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah, who enter by these gates to worship the LORD!'" {3} Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. Jeremiah 7:1-3 (NASB)
{8} "Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. {9} "Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, {10} then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered!'—that you may do all these abominations? {11} "Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it," declares the LORD. Jeremiah 7:8-11 (NASB)
{12} And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. {13} And He *said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN." Matthew 21:12-13 (NASB)

{17}
"Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? Jeremiah 7:17 (NASB)

{20} Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, My anger and My wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and on beast and on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground; and it will burn and not be quenched." Jeremiah 7:20 (NASB)

All ultimately fulfilled in the final destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in 70 AD.






 
@Stormcrow

Rome was the beast upon which Mystery Babylon rode. Mystery Babylon was Jerusalem.
So now i'm thinking there is this relationship between Rome and Jerusalem. Do you believe that the Pope wants to move to Jerusalem?

As for the stoning of Stephen and the people that Saul (Paul) allegedly killed remember that happened years before John wrote Revelation and wrote Mystery Babylon on the island of Patmos. Wouldn't John have already known that there were Christians killed in Jerusalem when he wrote his book? Was John writing about the future or the past when he mentions Mystery Babylon?

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

This Mystery Babylon woman kills saints and martyrs of Jesus not prophets of the Old Testament unless you are calling all saints prophets.
 
@Stormcrow

So now i'm thinking there is this relationship between Rome and Jerusalem. Do you believe that the Pope wants to move to Jerusalem?

The relationship that existed between Rome and Judea was that from the time Judea became a Roman province, Roman Caesars selected it kings and - in at least one case - selected its High Priest.

Roman Law prevented Jews from executing condemned prisoners under their law (which is why the Jews had to appeal to Pilate to have Christ crucified.)

The relationship that existed between Rome and Jerusalem had nothing at all to do with the Papacy when John penned the words of the Revelation.

As for the stoning of Stephen and the people that Saul (Paul) allegedly killed remember that happened years before John wrote Revelation and wrote Mystery Babylon on the island of Patmos. Wouldn't John have already known that there were Christians killed in Jerusalem when he wrote his book? Was John writing about the future or the past when he mentions Mystery Babylon?
"Allegedly killed?"

{3} "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today. {4} "I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons, {5} as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished. Acts 22:3-5 (NASB)

{9} For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Corinthians 15:9 (NASB)

Wouldn't John have already known that there were Christians killed in Jerusalem when he wrote his book?
Of course he did! John was persecuted as were all Christians of his time!
{9} I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 1:9 (NASB)
This is the commission Christ Himself gave to John in writing The Revelation:

{19} "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. Revelation 1:19 (NASB)

This Mystery Babylon woman kills saints and martyrs of Jesus not prophets of the Old Testament unless you are calling all saints prophets.
OK, for the last time: the word "saint" literally means "holy", "consecrated", or "sanctified" one. Used in the OT, it refers to (Mosaic) Law-abiding Jews.

In the NT, it is used in reference to those sanctified by the blood of Christ!

Now, look at the passages in Revelation which describe the "saints", "prophets", and "martyrs":

{6} And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints [holy Jews], and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus [ believers in Christ]. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. Revelation 17:6 (NASB)

These represent groups of people she was guilty of murdering both before and after the coming of Christ and His death and resurrection!

So where does the word "prophets" appear?
{24} "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth. [lit. in the land]" Revelation 18:24 (NASB)

{34}"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)

You'll never understand what the words of John, Luke, Christ, or Matthew mean until you stop seeing these things from our 21st century American Protestant Evangelical point-of-view.
 
"Allegedly killed?"

{3} "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today. {4} "I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons, {5} as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished. Acts 22:3-5 (NASB)

{9} For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Corinthians 15:9 (NASB)

Heres the thing about these verses they dont say that Paul actually killed anyone
himself. He captured Christians to put them in prison, he didn't stone Christians or get them with a spear.
"I persecuted this Way to the death"
in other words he persecuted this Christianity to the death, it just a way of saying that he was very active in persecuting the Christians.
They killed Stephen because to the Jews he spoke blasphemy. Remember that when Paul landed in Malta (Melita) in Acts a snake bit him but he didn't die. The locals thought that Paul was a murderer but it never says that he was one.
 
Heres the thing about these verses they dont say that Paul actually killed anyone
himself. He captured Christians to put them in prison, he didn't stone Christians or get them with a spear.
"I persecuted this Way to the death"
It wasn't a figure of speech.

{9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9 (NASB)

{1} Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, Acts 9:1 (NASB)

{10} "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them. Acts 26:10 (NASB)
 
This Mystery Babylon woman kills saints and martyrs of Jesus not prophets of the Old Testament unless you are calling all saints prophets.
Not all saints are prophets are saints, but all prophets fit the bill of saint. :yes

AK, you seem to be going out of your way to cling to your belief, despite solid evidence to the contrary.

We come here not to just teach, but to learn. I pray your eyes are opened to what we have been posting. :praying
 
[FONT=arial,helvatica][SIZE=-1]So which city is Babylon here?

1 Peter 5:
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Jerusalem or Rome or Babylon city?
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=arial,helvatica] [/FONT]
 
[FONT=arial,helvatica][SIZE=-1]So which city is Babylon here?

1 Peter 5:
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Jerusalem or Rome or Babylon city?
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Babylon-The Chaldean Babylon on the Euphrates. See [2627]Introduction, ON THE PLACE OF WRITING this Epistle, in proof that Rome is not meant as Papists assert; compare Lightfoot sermon. How unlikely that in a friendly salutation the enigmatical title of Rome given in prophecy (John, Re 17:5), should be used!

Babylon was the center from which the Asiatic dispersion whom Peter addresses was derived. Philo [The Embassy to Gaius, 36] and Josephus [Antiquities, 15.2.2; 23.12] inform us that Babylon contained a great many Jews in the apostolic age (whereas those at Rome were comparatively few, about eight thousand [Josephus, Antiquities, 17.11]); so it would naturally be visited by the apostle of the circumcision. It was the headquarters of those whom he had so successfully addressed on Pentecost, Ac 2:9, Jewish "Parthians . dwellers in Mesopotamia" (the Parthians were then masters of Mesopotamian Babylon); these he ministered to in person.

This Babylon is no mystery.
 
Well I am not sold on the Ideal that literial jerusalem is the Mystery babylon. However its a system that opposes God and Christ, yet its very palable to men of the world in its philsophy,even religous wise.
 
Today's Judaism is not the same as the Judaism of two thousand years ago. Do you suppose that is a good or a bad thing?:chin
 
Gee what ever could have happened 2000 years ago the change that?
 
Here it is: your “one-stop shop” for all the evidence pointing to 1st century Jerusalem as “Mystery Babylon” in Revelation 17 & 18.

First, let's take her attributes one-by-one:
1. She's called a “great harlot.” Rev. 17:1
“Harlotry” is equated with idolatry in the O.T. God had entered into a covenant relationship with the Children of Israel (Israel was God's first bride: Isa. 49:18, 61:10, 62:5, Jer. 2:32.) He warned them what would happen if they “played the harlot” (worshiped other gods), and sent prophets to call them harlots (shame them back to Him) when they did. Here are the verses people need to read to understand this:

Exo. 34:15-16, Lev.17:7, 19:29, 20:5-6, Num. 15:39, 25:1, Dt. 31:16, Jdg.2:17, 8:27, 33, 1Chr. 5:25, 2Chr. 21:11, 13, Psalms 106:39, Isa. 1:21, Jer. 2:20, 3:1, 6, 8, Eze. 6:9, 16:15-17, 26, 28, 30-31, 34-35, 41, 20:30, 23:3, 5, 19, 30, 44, Hos. 2:5, 3:3, 4:10, 4:12-15, 18, 5:3, 9:1, Mic. 1:7.

Here is a sample from that list:

{1} Do not rejoice, O Israel, with exultation like the nations! For you have played the harlot, forsaking your God. You have loved harlots' earnings on every threshing floor. Hosea 9:1 (NASB)

{12} My people consult their wooden idol, and their diviner's wand informs them; For a spirit of harlotry has led them astray, And they have played the harlot, departing from their God. Hosea 4:12 (NASB)

{30} ~'These things will be done to you because you have played the harlot with the nations, because you have defiled yourself with their idols. Ezekiel 23:30 (NASB)

There is not a single verse in the Bible that names Rome as a harlot. As you can see, there are many that name Israel, Judah, Jerusalem, and the Children of Israel as such.
2. She's said to “sit on many waters.” Rev. 17:1
While this can be true of many cities or nations, it's prophesied of only one in the O.T.

{2} And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came upon him. {3} He took up his discourse and said, "The oracle of Balaam the son of Beor, And the oracle of the man whose eye is opened; {7} "Water will flow from his buckets, And his seed will be by many waters, And his king shall be higher than Agag, And his kingdom shall be exalted. Numbers 24:2-3, 7(NASB)

The Children of Israel – all the tribes – are prophesied to sit “on many waters.” By the time 70 AD. arrived, there were Jewish communities from Persia to Rome primarily due to earlier Diasporas.

So far, in just the first verse of Revelation 17, we have incontrovertible evidence that points to 1st century Jerusalem as “Mystery Babylon.”

More in my next post.
 
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So here's the next post: Mystery Babylon's attributes continued...

  1. She's said to have “committed fornication” with the king's of the earth. Rev. 17:2
For this one, we have to go to the KJV to understand the O.T. usage of the word “fornication.”

{11} Moreover he [Jehoram] made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto. 2 Chronicles 21:11 (KJV)

The “high places” of this verse refers to altars, and is seen in many passages of the O.T. where the idolatry of the people of Israel and Judah is also mentioned. (See Lev. 26:30, Num. 22:41, 33:52).

The NASB uses the phrase “to play the harlot” instead of “commit fornication,” but the meaning is the same: 1st century Jerusalem and her people were “committing fornication” with Rome when they rejected Messiah. The Roman Caesars were considered divine by the pagans of Rome and the Roman Empire, and the Jews on the day of Christ's trial pledged allegiance to another god when they shouted this:

{15} So they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!" Pilate *said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar." John 19:15 (NASB)

In shouting “we have no king but Caesar”, they were also saying “we have no god but Caesar” because they understood all that the title “Caesar” meant in their day. They rejected the salvation of the true God (Christ) and “committed fornication” with a false god (Caesar), instead.

  1. She's said to be riding on a “scarlet beast.” Rev. 17:4
The “scarlet beast” here is Rome, and is the same beast John sees “rising out of the sea” in Rev. 13:1. Judah and Jerusalem came under the sphere of Roman influence as early as 164 B.C. Flavius Josephus recounts how this happened:
And when he [high priest Alcimus] was dead, the people bestowed the high priesthood on Judas; who hearing of the power of the Romans, and that they had conquered in war Galatia, and Iberia, and Carthage, and Libya; and that, besides these, they had subdued Greece, and their kings, Perseus, and Philip, and Antiochus the Great also; he resolved to enter into a league of friendship with them.

He therefore sent to Rome some of his friends, Eupolemus the son of John, and Jason the son of Eleazar, and by them desired the Romans that they would assist them, and be their friends, and would write to Demetrius that he would not fight against the Jews.

So the senate received the ambassadors that came from Judas to Rome, and discoursed with them about the errand on which they came, and then granted them a league of assistance.

They also made a decree concerning it, and sent a copy of it into Judea. It was also laid up in the capitol, and engraven in brass.

The decree itself was this: "The decree of the senate concerning a league of assistance and friendship with the nation of the Jews. It shall not be lawful for any that are subject to the Romans to make war with the nation of the Jews, nor to assist those that do so, either by sending them corn, or ships, or money; and if any attack be made upon the Jews, the Romans shall assist them, as far as they are able; and again, if any attack be made upon the Romans, the Jews shall assist them. And if the Jews have a mind to add to, or to take away any thing from, this league of assistance, that shall be done with the common consent of the Romans. And whatsoever addition shall thus be made, it shall be of force."

This decree was written by Eupolemus the son of John, and by Jason the son of Eleazar, when Judas was high priest of the nation, and Simon his brother was general of the army.

And this was the first league that the Romans made with the Jews, and was managed after this manner.

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 380.
Over the years, this alliance became increasingly uneasy until – in 63 B.C. - the Roman general Pompey besieged and conquered Jerusalem. This began the period of Roman occupation and rule over Jerusalem and Judea that would last until the Persian army took the city from Byzantium (Rome's Eastern Empire) in 614 AD. Only twenty-four years later, Jerusalem would fall to the forces of Islam.

During Jerusalem's alliance with Rome – and its later conquest by same – it received all the benefits any other nation in the Roman Empire received: Rome defended it, built roads in and out of it, encouraged trade, and thus Jerusalem became wealthy by it's association with Rome.

However, there is a downside that comes with wealth obtained by depending on someone other than God to provide it. John chides the church of Laodicea for this very thing:

{17} ~'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, {18} I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. {19} ~'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Revelation 3:17-19 (NASB)

This is the same message God spoke to His people through the prophets in the O.T. (Jer. 5:27, Hos 12:6-8)

More in my next post.
 
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If nothing else, I hope people are starting to see that the key for understanding Revelation is found in the Old Testament.
 
If nothing else, I hope people are starting to see that the key for understanding Revelation is found in the Old Testament.
Agreed !!! When you start the study in revelation, you pull it out of context. It honestly starts in Genesis, And should not be started until you have a solid understanding of Romans and Hebrews.
 
Gee what ever could have happened 2000 years ago the change that?
His name is Jesus and His tenure here on Earth "split" time (BC-AD).

Would you like to get to know Him? :D
 
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