The bible is written in such a way that if Christ had returned and all the prophecies had been fulfilled by the end of the first century(or there abouts)then it would fit, well Christ did not return and the prophecies of Rev did not occur in the first century and to this day Christ has not returned and the prophecies have not occured in Rev. The writers of the bible did not write of the 1900 years. I realize there are some similarities in the first century with some of the things in Rev, however it is insane(sorry but that is what I think),really insane to believe that what is written in Rev has already occured! I would rather believe the time element is something I do not understand then to lie to myself and believe all the incredible things in Rev(including the return of Christ)have occured.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Mike
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So just relax your junk with me at least, & be a good 'child'!
Elijah, what did you mean by the underlined phrase? Please no coded or colored words. Please just tell me in sentence form. Please.
freeway
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Wow, some are dead set on who mystery Babylon is or should be. I believe, and I cannot prove this but this is alot of what we do here. We interject our views. So I "believe" the mystery Babylon will be the emergent church, here is a list of what they believe, or what they want you to believe.
- Scripture is no longer the ultimate authority as the basis for the Christian faith.
- The centrality of the gospel of Jesus Christ is being replaced by humanistic methods promoting church growth and a social gospel.
- More and more emphasis is being placed on building the kingdom of God now and less and less on the warnings of Scripture about the imminent return of Jesus Christ and a coming judgment in the future.
- The teaching that Jesus Christ will rule and reign in a literal millennial period is considered unbiblical and heretical.
- The teaching that the church has taken the place of Israel and Israel has no prophetic significance is often embraced.
- The teaching that the book of Revelation does not refer to the future, but instead has been already fulfilled in the past or is allegorical.
- An experiential mystical form of Christianity begins to be promoted as a method to reach the postmodern generation.
- Ideas are promoted teaching that Christianity needs to be reinvented in order to provide meaning for this generation.
- The pastor may implement an idea called "ancient-future" or "vintage Christianity" claiming that in order to take the church forward, we need to go back in church history and find out what experiences were effective to get people to embrace Christianity.
- While the authority of the Word of God is undermined, images and sensual experiences are promoted as the key to experiencing and knowing God.
- These experiences include icons, candles, incense, liturgy, labyrinths, prayer stations, contemplative prayer, experiencing the sacraments (for Protestants), particularly the sacrament of the Eucharist.
- There seems to be a strong emphasis on ecumenism indicating that a bridge is being established that leads in the direction of unity with the Roman Catholic Church. (This will ultimately lead to the one world religion of Revelation.)
- Some "evangelical" Protestant leaders are saying that the Reformation went too far. They are reexamining the claims of the "church fathers" saying that communion is more than a symbol and that Jesus actually becomes present in the wafer at communion.
- Some suggest there are many ways to God.
- Members of churches who question or resist the new changes that the pastor is implementing are reprimanded and usually asked to leave. If you are over age 50, your opinion will not even matter.
Stormcrow
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I've provided the best evidence to date in this thread that Mystery Babylon is 1st century Jerusalem. I've done that here, here, and here.
No one - not you, Sam, Elijah, SDTKLMNOP - NO ONE has offered the kind of Biblical evidence for their views that I have and - what's more - I have offered them in the context of John's words written here:
{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)
{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)
{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)
{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)
Now, when any of you can come up with a "belief" that fits within the context of the words John wrote above - words given to him by Christ Himself - please, let us know.
There is no other possible interpretation of these words than what is clearly intended in a plain-old strict literal interpretation of them! So, either Jesus was lying when He told John to write these words; either Jesus was lying when He said 3 TIMES IN REVELATION 22 ALONE: "I AM COMING QUICKLY!", or he was not. And if Christ was not lying, then maybe some of you should repent of "adding to the words" written in the book, and think about why you would insist on calling Christ a liar!
Quite frankly, I've had enough of some of the pure nonsense I see you guys posting. You don't read the references or posts I spend hours to provide, then insult people with whom you disagree, all because you can't fathom the idea Christ wasn't talking about YOU when He uttered the words of Matthew 24 or Revelation!
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Stormcrow
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And you have scriptural support for this assertion???
Here's mine:
{38} "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' {39} "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. {40} "Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?" {41} They *said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons."
{42} Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
{43} "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. {44} "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
{45}When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. {46} When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet. Matthew 21:38-46 (NASB)
{29} "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, {30} and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' {31}"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. {32} "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. Matthew 23:29-32 (NASB)
In other words, "finish the job your fathers started by killing me!"
Now do you understand what He was telling them??? They would be held accountable for the innocent blood shed by their fathers AND HIS, TOO!
{25} And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" Matthew 27:25 (NASB)
Whose blood were they calling down on themselves and their children?
Don't take my word for it: read it without any doctrinal lenses on.
Stormcrow
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Which I had made clear in one of my earlier posts. However, Pilate turned Christ over to the crowds here:
{24} When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." {25} And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" {26} Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified. Matthew 27:24-26 (NASB)
Get it? Pilate gave Christ to the crowd to be crucified!
What's more, Roman Law regarding capital punishment didn't stop the Jews from stoning St. Stephen or James the Just!
Jesus wasn't crucified outside Rome, and He was not killed by Jesuits (or any other Catholics, for that fact!)
He was not killed outside Babylon or Antioch or Nineveh or Athens!
He was not crucified by anyone but the same crowd that called for His blood to be upon them! He was crucified by His own people - according to the parable of the landowner (Matt. 21).
End of discussion.
freeway
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9
{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God
gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which
must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it
by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)
{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who
hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it;
for the time is near. Revelation 1:3
(NASB)
{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful
and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel
to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon
take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)
{10} And he *said to me, "Do
not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is
near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)
All very good vesus.
rev 9:10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings, and their power of hurting men for five months lies in their tails. 11 They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abad'don, and in Greek he is called Apol'lyon... when did this happen.. future..
Rev 9:15 So the four angels were released, who had been held ready for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, to kill a third of mankind.. also when did this happen... future..
Rev 9:16 The number of the troops of cavalry was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number.. when did this happen 200,000,000.. future. This is just a few that I picked out quickly...ummm
What you have provided is solely your view. to say jerusalem is the MB when 2/3 of revelation has yet to be fullfilled is beyond me.
{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God
gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which
must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it
by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)
{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who
hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it;
for the time is near. Revelation 1:3
(NASB)
{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful
and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel
to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon
take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)
{10} And he *said to me, "Do
not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is
near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)
All very good vesus.
What about these versus how do they fit into your plan that all of revelation is past.
rev 9:10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings, and their power of hurting men for five months lies in their tails. 11 They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abad'don, and in Greek he is called Apol'lyon... when did this happen.. future..
Rev 9:15 So the four angels were released, who had been held ready for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, to kill a third of mankind.. also when did this happen... future..
Rev 9:16 The number of the troops of cavalry was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number.. when did this happen 200,000,000.. future. This is just a few that I picked out quickly...ummm
Wow.. just because you say it... But I say, Christ is by no way lying, just because I/we see past your mis interpretation of scripture. You are saying you along here are speaking for Jesus.. Please...
Man thats the pot calling the kettle black... chill out...
Oh I can fathom what Jesus was saying. That He is returning in the clouds at the end of days "future" to set all things right, put an end to sin, and set up His earthly kingdom that he will rule with a rod. That has not happen yet... look around this sad world and tell me Jesus has done all this... When my Lord comes back this kind of debate will not be taking place... come Lord Jesus
No your sorry that I don't believe your words that you try to fit neatly into your thinking, and when someone disagrees with you, you call it nonsense.. Well I think you interpretation is pure nonsence... But you are a brother in Christ for that all I can is "one day we will all know the truth" and it may not be the way either of us think... :D
freeway
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Stromcrow, What I can't fathom is someone who is so far off base that it makes me shake my head. There are so many things that are still future events. That are found through out the bible little alone Revelation that has yet to be fullfilled is beyond me. If you like and what to learn more I can start a list..:D
Stormcrow
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Which you then go on to ignore because they don't fit your doctrinal view of Revelation.
John "book-ended" Revelation with these words "soon" and "near" so NO ONE could misinterpret or misconstrue them. You did anyway.
I don't pretend to understand all the symbolism inherent in John's writing. But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I take it out of the context in which it was written. You did anyway.
What I DO understand is that all of the symbolism I have seen in John's work - so far - can be interpreted from the Old Testament, including all of the symbols pointing to 1st century Jerusalem as Mystery Babylon. You don't agree, yet you stooped to calling it a "doctrine of Satan": this coming from someone who has merely posted what he admits are his "beliefs", with no evidence to support them whatsoever.
Don't ascribe any equivalence - moral or otherwise - to our disparate points of view. What I post, I post from a position of knowledge. What you post, you post from a position of "belief" and ignorance, as in, "What about these versus [sic]?"
You can no more answer them than I can, yet you are perfectly willing to take them completely out of the context in which they were written (SOON AND NEAR) and call me a "tool of Satan" because I take Christ's words as written.
I'm not your "brother." My brother wouldn't call me some of the names you have.
End of discussion.
francisdesales
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- Aug 10, 2006
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RELAX.) So with a little more help from Matt. 24:21 on, with satan's 'false christ's, and false prophets + his allowed of God 'wonders' you will have the 'deception' in place to deceive the very elect if it were posible. 666
As usual, I don't know what you are talking about. I note that it is not just me who has a difficult time understanding your point. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to sit down and form complete sentences that made sense, so we could actually discuss things, rather than undergo your cryptic nonsense?
So just relax your junk with me at least, & be a good 'child'!
Relax my junk? You mean the part about Rome being a Church of Christ, according to St. Paul? Yea, I can see how you would consider that "junk", since it goes against the grain of your cult's inventions.
PS: You say: No serious commentary of Matthew applies this verse to an order that did not exist until 1500 years after it was written!!!
Jer. 17:1-5 has all of your whordom bed partners with their 'commentaries', with hardly any two agreeing on anything much except romes immortal soul + their sun replacement 'commentary'.
So tell us how you REALLY feel about the Christians Paul was writing to in the letter to the Romans... Do you think this got by St. Paul, these verses from Daniel and Jeremiah???
WHO is your 'father', again???2 Cor 4:2 has nothing to do with what you are talking about... As usual, your references to Scriptures have no bearing in reality, taking form in the dreams of fetid, feeble minds of cult figures who remain paranoid about the "jesuits"... People like yourself have no idea what true Biblical exegesis means.
Wake up, Elijah. The bible was written directly for people of the first century. Any attempt to highjack it for your own silly propaganda can just as easily be twisted upon you. Haven't you read 1 Cor 3:17? Take heed.
francisdesales
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Are you familiar with the literary genre called "Apocalyptic writings"? They are not MEANT to 'foretell' the future. Any literal attempt to do so is bound to fail. The intent of such writing is to bolster the morale of people undergoing persecution and hardships, people who need encouragement when it appears God has abandoned them. To convert the Bible into a horoscope is lunacy, esp when Christ Himself said NO ONE would know when the end would come, except the Father Himself. The 'signs' are just that. Signs that point to the end, but there is no chronology of how far into the future those signs are pointing to. Thus, they are meant only to inspired the people of the day, to hold fast to trusting in God - not as an indicator of the days leading to the end of the world...
The very fact that the 'signs' are 2000 years old should be evidence enough that the INTENT of the Apocalypse is NOT to "predict" the future in any literal sense.
Regards
"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book"
It is actually just what your saying its not and also what your saying it is, but it will infact happen as it is written wether people understand it or not and by Gods words through Daniel the prophet it is clear when the events begin or before His will know.
"But the people who know thier God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. And those people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join in intrigue. And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time."
Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
E
Elijah674
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Re: Who is Mystery Babylon ?
Mike asked:
Elijah, what did you mean by the underlined phrase? Please no coded or colored words. Please just tell me in sentence form. Please. (The question asked)
Elijah here:
Elijah is in Spiritual Concrete with the ORIGINAL REFORMERS on who the.. 'No Longer Mystery' was & is!They mostly all correctly believed that the Dan. 2's Two/legged image were both pagan + papal rome progressing into the last final prophetic antichrist, with her 10 toes! (Dan. 7 builds on that, & Rev. 13 has John looking back from this last project of satan's church.
And what they all (early reformers) missed was, was that the re/formed would all be deformed by satan's jesuit 'infiltration' ones & brought back into the mother apostate rome church of verse 5, of Rev. 17:1-5
So this is what was meant by me with this.. 'So just relax your junk with me at least,' There is NO WAY that the Early Reformers (nor I) would be fooled by this garbaging [posting!] (and the postor's heart is not the issue in doubt with me either! Just his postings!)
OK: There is more. On another site one of rome 'men' is way ahead of this young'in's inmaturity. (Heb. 5) He is telling the ones of Rev. 17:5 to not leave [THEIR CHURCH'S], while Rev. 18:4 is a DIRECT CALL OF GOD TO DO SO!
And why does rome shift gears?? It is because these church's are already in romes camp! And who knows who the ex/protestants ones have behind their pupits & in the LEADING Positions of ALL of these now/harlot daughter churchs?
ASK YOURSELF HOW ALL OF THESE EX/PROTESTANTS DAUGHTERS ARE PROPHESIED AS THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH IN INSPIRATION!? Rev. 17:1-5
And the ONLY UNITY satan needs + wants, is told of Christ in Matt. 6:24 There are only TWO camps, Christ's or satans! (Matt. 4:8-9) Most seem to think that they are all to be united in romes doctrines? yet all satan needs is for these all to just be his dis/obedients ones! Gen. 4:7 'DESIRED' ones.
That is about the sum of the underlined meaning in bottom/line. But few of the ones of today are any way near the Maturity of the early on reformers!
--Elijah
Mike asked:
Elijah, what did you mean by the underlined phrase? Please no coded or colored words. Please just tell me in sentence form. Please. (The question asked)
Elijah here:
Elijah is in Spiritual Concrete with the ORIGINAL REFORMERS on who the.. 'No Longer Mystery' was & is!They mostly all correctly believed that the Dan. 2's Two/legged image were both pagan + papal rome progressing into the last final prophetic antichrist, with her 10 toes! (Dan. 7 builds on that, & Rev. 13 has John looking back from this last project of satan's church.
And what they all (early reformers) missed was, was that the re/formed would all be deformed by satan's jesuit 'infiltration' ones & brought back into the mother apostate rome church of verse 5, of Rev. 17:1-5
So this is what was meant by me with this.. 'So just relax your junk with me at least,' There is NO WAY that the Early Reformers (nor I) would be fooled by this garbaging [posting!] (and the postor's heart is not the issue in doubt with me either! Just his postings!)
OK: There is more. On another site one of rome 'men' is way ahead of this young'in's inmaturity. (Heb. 5) He is telling the ones of Rev. 17:5 to not leave [THEIR CHURCH'S], while Rev. 18:4 is a DIRECT CALL OF GOD TO DO SO!
And why does rome shift gears?? It is because these church's are already in romes camp! And who knows who the ex/protestants ones have behind their pupits & in the LEADING Positions of ALL of these now/harlot daughter churchs?
ASK YOURSELF HOW ALL OF THESE EX/PROTESTANTS DAUGHTERS ARE PROPHESIED AS THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH IN INSPIRATION!? Rev. 17:1-5
And the ONLY UNITY satan needs + wants, is told of Christ in Matt. 6:24 There are only TWO camps, Christ's or satans! (Matt. 4:8-9) Most seem to think that they are all to be united in romes doctrines? yet all satan needs is for these all to just be his dis/obedients ones! Gen. 4:7 'DESIRED' ones.
That is about the sum of the underlined meaning in bottom/line. But few of the ones of today are any way near the Maturity of the early on reformers!
--Elijah
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freeway
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Wow, Reba now that is brave to even delete, clean up your own post.. My hat is off to ya...
Sinthesis
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Good luck!
'Moderate End Times' seems an oxymoron!
'Pleasant Apocalypse'?
'Temperate Armageddon'?
Something like those could happen and we might not even know it.:D
freeway
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Without trying to be rude.. Answer me this.. When did Jesus comes in the clouds and the whole world will see Him?
Matt 24:30 then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;
Also if you clear this up? when was the third temple built? As of right now there is no temple on the temple mount.
- The temple of Solomon. This temple was destroyed just before the Babylonian captivity, but after the return of Israel it was rebuilt again. It is commonly referred to as the first temple.<li value="2">The temple of Herod. This temple was built for the Jews by Herod in the last century before Christ. It is known as the second temple.
- The temple of the tribulation period. This temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem during the coming tribulation period (the 70th year-week of Daniel) after a covenant with the Antichrist. It is referred to as the third temple.
Rev 11:3 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth
So just a couple veruses.. when did these things above happen?
And as far as calling you Satan, No I did Not,, Just your preaching..
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed
freeway....:D
H
Hitch
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- #138
The sign referred here is probably the smoke rising from the city as it burned and yes the whole world sees this every time the history is brought up and compared to our Lord's warning against Jerusalem, proving his predictions were accurate.
- Show me a prophecy for rebuilding another temple.Or to put as you might ; When and where was a third temple prophesied ? Try II Hezikiah 2;14
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I think I'll pretend your being funny!Wow, Reba now that is brave to even delete, clean up your own post.. My hat is off to ya...
:toofunnyGood luck!
'Moderate End Times' seems an oxymoron!
'Pleasant Apocalypse'?
'Temperate Armageddon'?
Something like those could happen and we might not even know it.:D
totopic