Who made God?

[Randy]

That is a key ONLY for the the thief on the cross who was prevented from doing anything because he was nailed to a cross and going to be dead before get un-nailed.
YOU are NOT the thief on the cross who was of incapable of doing the good works for which God created you to do. (Eph 2:10)

What has that to do with my comment "Faith that is not put into action is no faith at all."

Faith without works is dead and cannot save anyone. (James 2)

Really?? Name some. No, never mind.
That has nothing to do with my statement that, "Faith that is not put into action is no faith at all."

So the thief wasn't saved like us? That's not I read. He asked and received . His sins weren't forgiven by works.

 

[Jim Parker]

So the thief wasn't saved like us? That's not I read. He asked and received . His sins weren't forgiven by works.

OK, I'll try once more.
What works could the thief do considering that he was nailed to a cross and about to die?

 

[Cygnus]

OK, I'll try once more.
What works could the thief do considering that he was nailed to a cross and about to die?

No works.....but thanks to the no works policy ushered in by the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...the one that performed the works for us in our place...there was no need for the thief to help in the meriting of his eternal life.

 

[Jim Parker]

but thanks to the no works policy ushered in by the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The same Lord who said this?

… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life,
those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28-29)

And who said this?

He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)
(Obedience required doing things, by the way.)

And who said:

Mat 25:31-46 (NKJV) When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?"
And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”
Then they also will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?”
Then He will answer them, saying, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.”

And these will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.

The difference between the damned and the righteous,
according to the LORD Jesus,
is the works that they did or did not do.

So, I'll just go with what Jesus said rather than your imaginary "no works policy."

Have a nice day!

 

[Cygnus]

The same Lord who said this?

… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life,
those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28-29)

And who said this?

He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)
(Obedience required doing things, by the way.)

And who said:

Mat 25:31-46 (NKJV) When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?"
And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”
Then they also will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?”
Then He will answer them, saying, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.”

And these will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.

The difference between the damned and the righteous,
according to the LORD Jesus,
is the works that they did or did not do.

So, I'll just go with what Jesus said rather than your imaginary "no works policy."

Have a nice day!

Jim Parker, For your own spiritual sake I hope you are wrong. If what you are saying is the actual correct translation.....were all doomed to hell. Every single one of us. Doomed.

You posted the following in your above post:
He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)
(Obedience required doing things, by the way.)

Uh-oh, do you always obey? Unless you obey completely the wrath of God rest on you. You can never know if your saved. Never. If I believed in that theology I would always wonder if I was good enough, merited enough to gain entrance into heaven.

 

[Jim Parker]

If what you are saying is the actual correct translation.

Those are very definitely the actual correct translations.
See: KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, RSV, etc.

.....were all doomed to hell. Every single one of us. Doomed.

Really? Do you think it's impossible do the things in Mat 25 or support an organization that did them?

Uh-oh, do you always obey?

Nobody ALWAYS obeys.
That's what confession is for.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Unless you obey completely the wrath of God rest on you.

Only if you refuse to confess and repent and try again.

You can never know if your saved.

I trust in God's mercy, not in my ability to obey.

If I believed in that theology I would always wonder if I was good enough, merited enough to gain entrance into heaven.

"That theology" is God's perfect word.
I didn't make that up.
It's what JESUS said.
He also said: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (RSV)
Do your best.

Be like Paul.
Phl 3:12-15 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

God loves you.
Do your best.

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

So the thief wasn't saved like us? That's not I read. He asked and received . His sins weren't forgiven by works.

Randy,

The practicalities are that those who repent of their sins and have faith in Christ alone as their Lord and Saviour on their death beds, do not have an opportunity to demonstrate their faith through works.

That's how it was for the thief on the cross and it happens for all death-bed salvations.

Oz

 

[Papa Zoom]

We are not saved of works. We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. Period.

New International Version John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
It has to do with believing and not believing. Works naturally follow from true faith. But salvation is from faith in Christ alone. Nothing more can be added.

But if you're going to talk about works, define precisely what they are. Because it's an ambiguous term unless it's known precisely to what you are referring. Is there a list in your mind? Or is it something else? Because I suspect we all agree in the end on the demonstration of works in the lives of true believers.

 

[OzSpen]

We are not saved of works. We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. Period.

New International Version John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
It has to do with believing and not believing. Works naturally follow from true faith. But salvation is from faith in Christ alone. Nothing more can be added.

But if you're going to talk about works, define precisely what they are. Because it's an ambiguous term unless it's known precisely to what you are referring. Is there a list in your mind? Or is it something else? Because I suspect we all agree in the end on the demonstration of works in the lives of true believers.

Papa Zoom,

I would have thought you would know of the two lists of works in Scripture that follow salvation. They are found in:

• Matt 25:31-46 (ESV), and
  
• James 2:1-26 (ESV).

If I go to a nursing home to be with a person who is suffering dementia, take meals to a needy brother or sister just out of hospital, go shopping for a person with disabilities, take blankets to an elderly person to make her warm during the Australian winter, help a teen break his marijuana habit, visit prisoners, I am loving my neighbour as myself (Matt 22:39).

Lev 19:9-18 (ESV) provides an excellent list of how I can love my neighbour as myself.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

But if you're going to talk about works, define precisely what they are. Because it's an ambiguous term unless it's known precisely to what you are referring. Is there a list in your mind?

Here's a partial list of works prescribed by scripture:

Works List from Paul's Letters
Rom 2:7-10 - Rom 6:12-13 - Rom 12:1-2 - Rom 12:6-8 - Rom 12:9-13:1 - Rom 13:5-8 - Rom 13:13-14
Rom 14:1-3 - Rom 14:13 - Rom 14:15-16 - Rom 14:19-21 - Rom 14:22-23 - Rom 15:1-2 - Rom 15:7

1 Cor 5:9-13 - 1 Cor 6:18. - 1 Cor 7:10-11 - 1Cor 7:20-24 - 1 Cor 8:13 - 1 Cor 10:7-10 - 1 Cor 10:12
1 Cor 10:27-28 - 1 Cor 10:31-33 - 1 Cor 11:1 - 1 Cor 11:27-28 - 1 Cor 11:33-34 - 1 Cor 14:1
1 Cor 14:27-32 - 1 Cor 14:34 - 1 Cor 14:39-40 - 1 Cor 15:58 - 1 Cor 16:13-14

2 Cor 6:14 - 2 Cor 6:17

Gal 5:16 - Gal 6:1 - Gal 6:2 - Gal 6:6

Eph 4:1-3 - Eph 4:20-32 - Eph 5:1-4 - Eph 5:11 - Eph 5:15-21 - Eph 5:22 - Eph 5:25 - Eph 5:33
Eph 6:1 - Eph 6:4 - Eph 6:5-8 - Eph 6:9 - Eph 6:10-13

Phl 1:27-28 - Phl 2:3-8 - Phl 2:14 - Phl 4:4-6 - Phl 4:8 - Phl 4:9

Col 2:16-17 - Col 3:2 - Col 3:5 - Col 3:8-9 - Col 3:13-17 - Col 3:18-23 - Col 4:1 - Col 4:5-6

1Th 4:3-5 - 1 Th 5:6-8 - 1Th 5:11 - 1Th 5:15-22 ---- 2 Th 2:15

1 Ti 2:1-2 - 1 Ti 2:11-12 - 1 Ti 4:7 - 1 Ti 4:16 - 1 Ti 5:1-3 - 1 Ti 5:8 - 1 Ti 5:19-20 - 1 Ti 5:22
1 Ti 6:7-14 - 1 Ti 6:17-19

2 Ti 1:6 - --- 2 Ti 1:13-14 - 2 Ti 2:22 - 2 Ti 2:11-13 - 2 Ti 2:15-16 - 2Ti 2:22-23 - 2 Ti 2:24-26

Tts 3:9-10

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa Zoom,

I would have thought you would know of the two lists of works in Scripture that follow salvation. They are found in:

• Matt 25:31-46 (ESV), and
  
• James 2:1-26 (ESV).

If I go to a nursing home to be with a person who is suffering dementia, take meals to a needy brother or sister just out of hospital, go shopping for a person with disabilities, take blankets to an elderly person to make her warm during the Australian winter, help a teen break his marijuana habit, visit prisoners, I am loving my neighbour as myself (Matt 22:39).

Lev 19:9-18 (ESV) provides an excellent list of how I can love my neighbour as myself.

Oz

I wanted to hear your understanding. Because it's your thinking I'm after, not my own.

 

[Jim Parker]

We are not saved of works. We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. Period.

Faith without works is dead and will not save you. (Also "period") James 2

 

[OzSpen]

Here's a partial list of works prescribed by scripture:

Works List from Paul's Letters
Rom 2:7-10 - Rom 6:12-13 - Rom 12:1-2 - Rom 12:6-8 - Rom 12:9-13:1 - Rom 13:5-8 - Rom 13:13-14
Rom 14:1-3 - Rom 14:13 - Rom 14:15-16 - Rom 14:19-21 - Rom 14:22-23 - Rom 15:1-2 - Rom 15:7

1 Cor 5:9-13 - 1 Cor 6:18. - 1 Cor 7:10-11 - 1Cor 7:20-24 - 1 Cor 8:13 - 1 Cor 10:7-10 - 1 Cor 10:12
1 Cor 10:27-28 - 1 Cor 10:31-33 - 1 Cor 11:1 - 1 Cor 11:27-28 - 1 Cor 11:33-34 - 1 Cor 14:1
1 Cor 14:27-32 - 1 Cor 14:34 - 1 Cor 14:39-40 - 1 Cor 15:58 - 1 Cor 16:13-14

2 Cor 6:14 - 2 Cor 6:17

Gal 5:16 - Gal 6:1 - Gal 6:2 - Gal 6:6

Eph 4:1-3 - Eph 4:20-32 - Eph 5:1-4 - Eph 5:11 - Eph 5:15-21 - Eph 5:22 - Eph 5:25 - Eph 5:33
Eph 6:1 - Eph 6:4 - Eph 6:5-8 - Eph 6:9 - Eph 6:10-13

Phl 1:27-28 - Phl 2:3-8 - Phl 2:14 - Phl 4:4-6 - Phl 4:8 - Phl 4:9

Col 2:16-17 - Col 3:2 - Col 3:5 - Col 3:8-9 - Col 3:13-17 - Col 3:18-23 - Col 4:1 - Col 4:5-6

1Th 4:3-5 - 1 Th 5:6-8 - 1Th 5:11 - 1Th 5:15-22 ---- 2 Th 2:15

1 Ti 2:1-2 - 1 Ti 2:11-12 - 1 Ti 4:7 - 1 Ti 4:16 - 1 Ti 5:1-3 - 1 Ti 5:8 - 1 Ti 5:19-20 - 1 Ti 5:22
1 Ti 6:7-14 - 1 Ti 6:17-19

2 Ti 1:6 - --- 2 Ti 1:13-14 - 2 Ti 2:22 - 2 Ti 2:11-13 - 2 Ti 2:15-16 - 2Ti 2:22-23 - 2 Ti 2:24-26

Tts 3:9-10

Papa,

You are really stretching it with some of these examples. I only checked Titus 3:9-10; Rom 14:1-3, Gal 6:2, 6, and 2 Tim 1:13-14 and you left me with questions about whether this is referring to good works.

Oz

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa,

You are really stretching it with some of these examples. I only checked Titus 3:9-10; Rom 14:1-3, Gal 6:2, 6, and 2 Tim 1:13-14 and you left me with questions about whether this is referring to good works.

Oz

You're quoting Jim, not me. I offered none.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Faith without works is dead and will not save you. (Also "period") James 2

Only because works are the evidence of faith. Period and exclamation point.

 

[Jim Parker]

Papa,

You are really stretching it with some of these examples. I only checked Titus 3:9-10; Rom 14:1-3, Gal 6:2, 6, and 2 Tim 1:13-14 and you left me with questions about whether this is referring to good works.

Oz

In each passage, specific behaviors are given that we should emulate.
Tts 3:9-10 … avoid foolish disputes,
Avoidance is a behavior, a "work"
Rom 14:1-3 Receive one who is weak in the faith, [but] not to disputes over doubtful things.
Receiving is a behavior, a "work". A work is something we do.
For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats [only] vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
"Don't despise" and "don't judge" are instruction to avoid specific behaviors.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ
Bearing is a "work"
Fulfilling is a "work"
Gal 6:6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
Sharing is a work
2 Ti 1:13-14 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
Holding fast in faith and in love is a work.
Keeping the things committed to you is a work.

I don't see how any of that is "stretching." In each passage, Paul instructs the people to "do" something. When one does something, it is a "work."

quite simply, Paul was telling the people how to act like (do the deeds of) a believer in Christ.

jim

 

[Jim Parker]

Only because works are the evidence of faith. Period and exclamation point.

And, apparently, the believers of the primitive church needed to be told to make sure they did the works as do many believers today who have the misfortune to attend churches where they are taught that works are unimportant and won't make any difference with regard to their salvation in spite of the fact that Jesus personally told His disciples that they will be judged by what they DID, not what they believed.

Who is it that doesn't want good works to be emphasized and, in fact, denigrated as "trying to earn your salvation"? Is it not the Devil who doesn't want Christians standing out from the rest of the world because of their good works?

When people tell others not to be so concerned with good works, are they not assisting the devil in his evil work so that no one will see a believers light and praise the Father in heaven because of the believer's good works and so that believers will appear before the Judge of all mankind with no evidence of faith to offer and be condemned?

Works indeed are definitely the evidence of faith. And when we show up at the judgment seat of Christ we had best have the evidence readily available.

I cannot understand why any believer would be so opposed to doing the things that Jesus commanded him to do.

 

[OzSpen]

You're quoting Jim, not me. I offered none.

So you did Papa
Please accept my apologies.

 

[OzSpen]

In each passage, specific behaviors are given that we should emulate.
Tts 3:9-10 … avoid foolish disputes,
Avoidance is a behavior, a "work"
Rom 14:1-3 Receive one who is weak in the faith, [but] not to disputes over doubtful things.
Receiving is a behavior, a "work". A work is something we do.
For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats [only] vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
"Don't despise" and "don't judge" are instruction to avoid specific behaviors.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ
Bearing is a "work"
Fulfilling is a "work"
Gal 6:6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
Sharing is a work
2 Ti 1:13-14 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
Holding fast in faith and in love is a work.
Keeping the things committed to you is a work.

I don't see how any of that is "stretching." In each passage, Paul instructs the people to "do" something. When one does something, it is a "work."

quite simply, Paul was telling the people how to act like (do the deeds of) a believer in Christ.

jim

Behaviours to emulate relate to sanctification and not good works.IMO.

I'm back in hospital. INR way too high. Danger of severe bleeding.

 

[Randy]

Randy,

The practicalities are that those who repent of their sins and have faith in Christ alone as their Lord and Saviour on their death beds, do not have an opportunity to demonstrate their faith through works.

That's how it was for the thief on the cross and it happens for all death-bed salvations.

Oz

Its not by law and its not by works.

Jesus=>ask and receive; knock and the door will be opened; seek and find
Jesus who knew the sins of the women at the well=>Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
Jesus=>Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.

Paul=>I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Paul=>For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Jesus=>Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

The one born of God does not continue to sin. -John wrote that not me.

I think this is more in line with what James was stating=> If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

It is not meant to recreate a continuous ask and receive forgiveness method of salvation. As in one who continues to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth. If the Lord forgives your sins you are forgiven. And via the Spirit who Jesus received from the Father and sends in His name One is washed, sanctified, justified. And those who remain in Jesus He remains in them. A good tree bears good fruit. Not bad fruit.

We are children of the promise not of the slave women.