Who made God?

[jasonc]

I'm praying that my walk lines up with my confession, that I love my wife more,my attitude is one of humility, grace and mercy, love is shown.

If I didn't need these things to be truly saved why would God list these to show that I am truly saved?

That the world may know me if ye love one another

 

[Nathan]

I'm praying that my walk lines up with my confession, that I love my wife more,my attitude is one of humility, grace and mercy, love is shown.

If I didn't need these things to be truly saved why would God list these to show that I am truly saved?

That the world may know me if ye love one another

1Jo 3:4-10
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

What you do is just a reflection of what who you are and who's you are. You do not practice righteousness to be righteous, you do it because you are righteous.

 

[jasonc]

1Jo 3:4-10
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

What you do is just a reflection of what who you are and who's you are. You do not practice righteousness to be righteous, you do it because you are righteous.

Of course,and Jim is saying that.

 

[Gregg T]

Scripture is silent with reference to Mary's perpetual virginity and we have only the historic teaching of the Church on which to base our belief. That historic teaching is that she remained a virgin for all her life.

I will go with the historic teaching of the Church rather than the modern need of Protestantism that she must of necessity have had a "normal" sex life.

3 times John identifies Jesus as having brothers:
Joh 7:3 Then His brothers said to Him, Move away from here and go to Judea, that Your disciples will also see Your works which You do, (not His disciples).
Joh 7:5 For His brothers did not believe into Him.
Joh 7:10 But when His brothers went up, then He also went up to the feast, not openly, but as in secret.

And if that is not enough, Jesus' mother and His brothers are mentioned together. Please note that His brothers are differentiated from His disciples, and that His family (Jesus, His mother and. His brothers) dwelled / lived together.
Joh 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples. And He remained there not many days.

3 times together Matthew identifies Jesus as as having brothers, in context as belonging to His mother:
Mat 12:46 But while He was yet speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said to Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to You.
Mat 12:48 But answering, He said to the one speaking to Him, Who is My mother? And who are My brothers?

Jesus' responce in Mat 12:48 makes it absolutely clear that He understood the crown was refering to His blood brothers, otherwise He would not have asked the question "Who are My brothers?" and then refer to others (Mat 12:49-50).

Why the need to think she remained a virgin?

 

[Jim Parker]

Behaviours to emulate relate to sanctification and not good works.IMO.

The behaviors, by definition, are "works." They are actions taken by the believer.
You cannot emulate anything without doing something.
Any time you do something you are doing work.

I'm back in hospital. INR way too high. Danger of severe bleeding.

Don't know what INR is but I'll be praying.

jim

 

[Randy]

I'm praying that my walk lines up with my confession, that I love my wife more,my attitude is one of humility, grace and mercy, love is shown.

If I didn't need these things to be truly saved why would God list these to show that I am truly saved?

That the world may know me if ye love one another

You do not receive the Fathers promise by works but by faith in Jesus. As in ask and receive.
If you have the Spirit of Christ in you then you already have what you need. Just put it into practice.
2peter 1
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers and sisters,a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

3 times John identifies Jesus as having brothers:

And none of those times is it required that they have to be her children.

And if that is not enough, Jesus' mother and His brothers are mentioned together. Please note that His brothers are differentiated from His disciples, and that His family (Jesus, His mother and. His brothers) dwelled / lived together.
Joh 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples. And He remained there not many days.
3 times together Matthew identifies Jesus as as having brothers, in context as belonging to His mother:

Again. None of that requires that the brothers are Mary's children.

Jesus' responce in Mat 12:48 makes it absolutely clear that He understood the crown was refering to His blood brothers, otherwise He would not have asked the question "Who are My brothers?" and then refer to others (Mat 12:49-50).

No. It does NOT make it "absolutely clear." There is plenty of cause to reject that modern conclusion.

Why the need to think she remained a virgin?

Because that has been the teaching of the Church from the earliest times.
I don't see any good reason to accept the modern teaching of evangelical Protestantism where departs from the teaching of the ancient Church.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

If you have the Spirit of Christ in you then you already have what you need. Just put it into practice.

And if you do not put "it" into practice (which means: "Do the good works you were created to do.") then be prepared to hear Jesus say to you: “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”

Which is exactly why scripture says:"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (Jas 2:24)

iakov the fool

 

[jasonc]

You do not receive the Fathers promise by works but by faith in Jesus. As in ask and receive.
If you have the Spirit of Christ in you then you already have what you need. Just put it into practice.
2peter 1
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers and sisters,a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

So I can sin all I want ,and the fruits of the spirit don't apply as a means of checking my heart ?

 

[Jim Parker]

So I can sin all I want ,and the fruits of the spirit don't apply as a means of checking my heart ?

HEy, fuggediboudit! Once Saved Always Saved! Do as you please!

 

[Gregg T]

And none of those times is it required that they have to be her children.

Again. None of that requires that the brothers are Mary's children.

No. It does NOT make it "absolutely clear." There is plenty of cause to reject that modern conclusion.

Because that has been the teaching of the Church from the earliest times.
I don't see any good reason to accept the modern teaching of evangelical Protestantism where departs from the teaching of the ancient Church.

iakov the fool

The common sense and reasonable reading of Scripture states that Jesus has brothers, for which one could reasonably determine that Mary did not remain a virgin.

You don't need to accept modern teaching on the matter, and you should not accept Catholic tradition over Scripture.

These things are not modern conclusions as Matthew, John, and perhaps Paul (James 1:9) taught these things.

You did not answer my question, 'Why the need to think Mary remained a virgin?' Here are two more questions: Is it important to you to think that she did not have other children? Besides her having given birth to Immanuel, is there something about her person that is more special or holy than you or me?

 

[Jim Parker]

The common sense and reasonable reading of Scripture states that Jesus has brothers,

Really??? So 99% of the church had no common sense for 1600 or so years until the advent of Evangelical Protestants? Amazing!!!

You don't need to accept modern teaching on the matter,

I definitely do not accept every Tom, Dick and Harriet's personal opinion of what they think scripture says over what the early church fathers said.

you should not accept Catholic tradition over Scripture.

Ah! THAT's your problem; perpetual virginity is too KAATH-lick for you.
Not my problem.

These things are not modern conclusions as Matthew, John, and perhaps Paul (James 1:9) taught these things.

Please. That is your insertion of your personal opinion into the scriptures. Your opinions are not definitive of reality.

Why the need to think Mary remained a virgin?

I already answered that question. "Because that has been the teaching of the Church from the earliest times."
But I don't "need" to think that. I accept the teaching of "the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1Ti 3:15)
Why do you have such a pressing need for me to agree with you?
Why is it so important to you for Mary to have a "normal" sex life?
What's THAT about?

 

[Nathan]

There has to be a reason for believing/teaching that Mary was forever a virgin. There are a lot of things that we have no clue about, that were not taught down through the years. So the reason Mary remained a virgin has to have some significance.

It cannot be 'just because'. Think about it, for people to maintain she was forever a virgin means that either she said so, or someone knew about her relationship with her husband. Both seem very doubtful.

So someone had to perpetuate the idea for a reason - not 'just because'. We have no other 'teaching' about any other persons intimate life from that time. Why Mary's?

 

[Papa Zoom]

There has to be a reason for believing/teaching that Mary was forever a virgin. There are a lot of things that we have no clue about, that were not taught down through the years. So the reason Mary remained a virgin has to have some significance.

It cannot be 'just because'. Think about it, for people to maintain she was forever a virgin means that either she said so, or someone knew about her relationship with her husband. Both seem very doubtful.

So someone had to perpetuate the idea for a reason - not 'just because'. We have no other 'teaching' about any other persons intimate life from that time. Why Mary's?

My sarcastic side says, "because they were prudes and sex is bad, virginity is good." BTW, after the baby is born, you're physically no longer a virgin. Virgin women are pure but woman who've known a man, even her husband, not pure. I think this is behind it. Just an opinion but not one that goes against the biblical teaching of Mary having other children. Either way, she remained a virgin only until Joseph and Mary came together as man and wife. Probably within weeks of Jesus' birth.

 

[Jim Parker]

There has to be a reason for believing/teaching that Mary was forever a virgin.

I have given my reason.
It is the teaching of the Church from ancient times until today.
If I can't trust the Church with that bit of information then why should I trust them with any CHristian teaching?

There are a lot of things that we have no clue about, that were not taught down through the years. So the reason Mary remained a virgin has to have some significance.

The fact that somebody did not do the research for you (plural) and then teach it to you is no excuse for not having a clue.

It cannot be 'just because'. Think about it, for people to maintain she was forever a virgin means that either she said so, or someone knew about her relationship with her husband. Both seem very doubtful.

It is doubtful to you because you have not done any research on the subject to see what the early church had to say.
No one is saying "just because" unless you are also willing to say that you believe in the Trinity "just because" and the dual nature of Christ "just because" as well.

So someone had to perpetuate the idea for a reason - not 'just because'. We have no other 'teaching' about any other persons intimate life from that time. Why Mary's?

The answer should be obvious.
What other person conceived a child by the Holy Spirit?
There were consecrated or dedicated virgins in the Church in the 1st century.
[1 Cor 7:34 hē gunē hē agamos kai hē parthenos … ("the unmarried woman and the virgin [cares for the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit]"),
Acts 21:9 thugateres tessares parthenoi prophēteuousai ("four unmarried daughters who prophesied")]
Just because the modern western person cannot imagine such a life, it does not follow that it could not be the case in ancient Israel.

 

[Jim Parker]

My sarcastic side says, "because they were prudes and sex is bad, virginity is good." BTW, after the baby is born, you're physically no longer a virgin.

That notion does not apply to the Mother of God.
Every other woman who ever bore a child had "known" a man. She did not.

Just an opinion but not one that goes against the biblical teaching of Mary having other children.

There is no such teaching that necessitates that conclusion.
It is the result of modern, western secularism intruding into the teaching of the Church.

 

[Papa Zoom]

That notion does not apply to the Mother of God.
Every other woman who ever bore a child had "known" a man. She did not.

There is no such teaching that necessitates that conclusion.
It is the result of modern, western secularism intruding into the teaching of the Church.

It's an open question. Scripture trumps tradition

 

[Randy]

So I can sin all I want ,and the fruits of the spirit don't apply as a means of checking my heart ?

No it means you already have what you need to live a Godly life. Christ in us. Assuming you have that gift. You should know.

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit.

Randy

 

[Randy]

The common sense and reasonable reading of Scripture states that Jesus has brothers, for which one could reasonably determine that Mary did not remain a virgin.

You don't need to accept modern teaching on the matter, and you should not accept Catholic tradition over Scripture.

These things are not modern conclusions as Matthew, John, and perhaps Paul (James 1:9) taught these things.

You did not answer my question, 'Why the need to think Mary remained a virgin?' Here are two more questions: Is it important to you to think that she did not have other children? Besides her having given birth to Immanuel, is there something about her person that is more special or holy than you or me?

He will use scripture if it matches his theology. Otherwise he has to find a way out such as giving alternate means to what the text plainly states. I call that Houdini theology. Trying to find a way of escape from what is plainly written and in proper context. Jesus went to His hometown. They know that guy and they list of His family.

Randy

 

[Randy]

And if you do not put "it" into practice (which means: "Do the good works you were created to do.") then be prepared to hear Jesus say to you: “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”

Which is exactly why scripture says:"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (Jas 2:24)

iakov the fool

And what does "a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."" mean?

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. My justification isn't by works and isn't from me. But by the Lord and His grace. Now those who don't have the spirit despite what they might declare? (not meaning you)

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. I do NOT declare once saved always saved. I would state remain in Jesus and He will remain in you. Even though John wrote those who are born again don't continue to sin. And the Lord stated if you hold to my testimony that shows you as His disciple.