Bible Study Who of the Godhead Did What In The Old Covenant (Testament)?

[Chopper]

Several people have said that Jesus is the God of the Old Covenant (Testament). At least that's how it comes across to me. Someone actually believes that YHWH is Jesus. Personally, I believe that God the Father did things, God the Son did things and God the Holy Spirit did things. This is an over simplification of the subject but Who did what? Or did all members of the Essence of the Godhead equally involve Themselves in each endeavor?

John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Is this a proof text that Jesus the Son of God did everything in the Old Covenant? Did Jesus the Son of God give Moses the Law? etc etc.

 

[smaller]

Dividing the Godhead is a basic flaw of orthodox theology. This essential principle is laid out in examples such as in the Nicene Creed.

There is not a different God/god of the O.T.

We know for no uncertain fact that the Spirit of CHRIST spoke through the prophets for example from 1 Peter 1:10-11.

We know from Paul that Christ was with the people of the O.T., here for example:

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

We know from Acts 7 that it was specifically JESUS who was with the people in the desert and into the promised land:

44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

It is basically impossible to take Jesus away from The Word of God, period.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
-
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[JLB]

Personally, I believe that God the Father did things, God the Son did things and God the Holy Spirit did things.

Amen.

Elohim is the creator, which includes Jesus.

Someone actually believes that YHWH is Jesus.

Before coming to this Forum, I thought everyone knew that Jesus was YHWH, which is rendered Lord in the OT.

Jesus is Lord, is the foundation of our salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus... with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

The context defines who Paul is referring to, when he says Lord.

11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:11-13

Paul hard-links Jesus as YHWH, by quoting from Joel, that are references YHWH.

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Joel 2:32

Jesus is the name of the Lord, YHWH.

It is Jesus who comes and His feet stand on the mount of Olives.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4

Do you believe God the Father will come on the Day of the Lord, and His feet will stand on the mount of Olives?


It is Jesus who comes with His saints.

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Do you believe God the Father will come with the saints?


Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God, and appeared to the OT saints.

God the Father is Him who is seated upon the Throne in heaven, and is worshiped day and night.
Revelation 4:2-11, Revelation 7:15,


I believe it was God the Son, who appeared to the OT saints, not God the Father.

2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”

5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6

Moses then ask's Him His name.

13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:13-14

Did Moses see God the Father, or the Angel of the Lord?

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5-8


Jesus said -

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;
John 8:58-59



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Lets look at the Romans 10:9 & 13 for a start....
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord"....check out Strongs definition.
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
Total KJV occurrences: 748

Now check out V.13....Rom 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Lord" in this case is Jehovah. Is there a difference here?
Is Jesus the Lord in V.9 and the Father in V.13?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Timely and needed subject Chopper.

Smaller, I disagree. It is not a mistake but it is a subject to seldom preached and when it is, my opinion, it is not, oft, preached with any explanation, as though all present understand that three persons can be one God and not three gods.

JLB, yours might be a typo, I don't know but from teachers that read ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek I am taught the YHWH is translated LORD and is much, much, different from Lord.

From my study under the Holy Spirit I am given to understand that none of the Holy Three can do or think anything the other two do not know and participate in. My understanding is that nothing is done but that the Father commands or wills, your preference here, done.

Even Jesus, having in his body the divested deity of the Son of God, prayed for the Perfect Will of the Father.

 

[Chopper]

I just thought of something. When Jesus the Son of God was born into this world of humans. What happened in the realm of godly projects, nothing? since Jesus was missing from the action and localized in a human body rather than how He was before the incarnation?

 

[th1b.taylor]

God is nothing like Bill Taylor but Bill does seek to be like God, all three members collectively. My sons, natural and adopted, seek to be like this old man and when they are away from me, daughters included, there is an aching in my heart, just as there was in my stepfather's (Dad) heart when I joined the Army.

When Jesus was born, the Son of God was not in Heaven with the Father and if Spirits cry, I see great wells of tears falling from the Father and also from the Holy Spirit. It can not be supported with scripture by me but I see anguish and an empty well in Heaven, all because the Son was not with them.

 

[dianegcook]

Several people have said that Jesus is the God of the Old Covenant (Testament). At least that's how it comes across to me. Someone actually believes that YHWH is Jesus. Personally, I believe that God the Father did things, God the Son did things and God the Holy Spirit did things. This is an over simplification of the subject but Who did what? Or did all members of the Essence of the Godhead equally involve Themselves in each endeavor?

John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Is this a proof text that Jesus the Son of God did everything in the Old Covenant? Did Jesus the Son of God give Moses the Law? etc etc.

Hi Chopper
I look at it as different roles, ONE plays.
Jesus was God in the flesh.
As we see in Rev.1:8 it states in red,
I am Alpha and Amego, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
Which is, and which was, and which is to come, The Almighty.
As Psa.17:7
Show Thy marvellous lovingkindness, O Thou that saves by Thy right hand.
And many other scriptures,....

 

[Free]

Several people have said that Jesus is the God of the Old Covenant (Testament). At least that's how it comes across to me. Someone actually believes that YHWH is Jesus. Personally, I believe that God the Father did things, God the Son did things and God the Holy Spirit did things. This is an over simplification of the subject but Who did what? Or did all members of the Essence of the Godhead equally involve Themselves in each endeavor?

John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Is this a proof text that Jesus the Son of God did everything in the Old Covenant? Did Jesus the Son of God give Moses the Law? etc etc.

It makes sense that Jesus is YHWH but YHWH isn't Jesus, which is the same as saying Jesus is God but God isn't Jesus. YHWH is the God of the OT, which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

As for John 1:1-3, it only shows that the Son was involved in creation, not that he acted alone. Indeed, looking at Gen. 1:2 we see that the Holy Spirit was involved in creation, so it is clearly no stretch to include the Father in that as well. As Gen. just uses "God," we can safely assume that all three were involved. Of course, the NT sheds more light and we know that the Father was involved (1 Cor. 8:6).

I think that in some way it is most likely that all three are involved in each act.

 

[JLB]

Lets look at the Romans 10:9 & 13 for a start....
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord"....check out Strongs definition.
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
Total KJV occurrences: 748

Now check out V.13....Rom 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Lord" in this case is Jehovah. Is there a difference here?
Is Jesus the Lord in V.9 and the Father in V.13?

Romans 10:9 - Lord - kyrios G2962
Romans 10:13 - Lord - kyrios G2962

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2962&t=KJV

We call on the Name of Jesus to be saved.

Jesus is YHWH.

Joshua = YĕHoWsHuwa`- Strong’s Number: 3091

“YHWH is salvation” = the Lord is salvation


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3091&t=KJV

The translators couldn't decide, whether it was Jesus and Joshua, in Hebrews 4:8

• For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV
• For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 KJV

If you need to add some letters to YHWH, add these - YĕHoWsHuwa`


Why wouldn't God the father name His only begotten Son after Him?

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11

The name above all names, is Jesus. The name of YHWH Elohim.

The name that expressed by all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Several people have said that Jesus is the God of the Old Covenant (Testament). At least that's how it comes across to me. Someone actually believes that YHWH is Jesus. Personally, I believe that God the Father did things, God the Son did things and God the Holy Spirit did things. This is an over simplification of the subject but Who did what? Or did all members of the Essence of the Godhead equally involve Themselves in each endeavor?

John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Is this a proof text that Jesus the Son of God did everything in the Old Covenant? Did Jesus the Son of God give Moses the Law? etc etc.

Hi Chopper,

Interesting question. How do you divide God? And yet He must be divided or our human brain gets all mixed up.
There's only one God. There are not 3 Gods. So why do we keep speaking as if there were three? Because even though there's only one God, He has three distinct persons He shows to us. So God is all and All are God. But divide we must.

Yahweh is not Jesus. Yahweh is God the Father. The Almighty, the Creator.
Jesus is the Word of God.
The Holy Spirit is our paraclete.
But they are still all ONE GOD. Deuteronomy says there is only one God. Deuteronomy 6:4

I go with Dianegcook. Even though there is only one God, He has distinct roles to play. I don't want to get into the Trinity, per se, but The Father generated the Son for our salvation.
He decided that He wanted to create.
The Son does the will of the Father.
He fulfills the prophesies of the O.T.
He reconciles us to God the Father through His sacrifice.
The Holy Spirit is our paraclete.
He convicts us of sin.
He guides us in uderstanding the word of God.

So it was Jesus, the Word, the 2nd person of the Trinity on the cross.
The Holy Spirit came after Jesus left to be with us forever.
The Father created all we see and the first man and woman.

John 6:38 Jesus says He came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent Jesus. Who sent Him? Did He send Himself? Yes and no. This is the big mystery of the Trinity.
It's like you see a man. He's one man. But to one he is a father, to another he's a brother and to still another he's an uncle. If he's an uncle to the third, is he also his father, no. But he still IS a father.

So it's not right to say that Yahweh is Jesus. Yahweh is the Father. All three were present when Yahweh created all. Jesus was His word and the Holy Spirit was His breath. When Jesus was baptized, all three were present, Jesus, the Father speaking from heaven (Mathew 3:16-17) and the Holy Spirit as a dove. They were all there present and separate. Each was distinctly named.

So One is All and All are One and all were always present but the roles are divided.

Romans 10:9 is Jesus. Because we call on His name as the Savior. The Son.
Romans 10:13 is Jesus.
But it refers to the O.T. Joel 2:32

I understand this in two different ways. First of all, even in the O.T. people called on the name of the Lord and were saved. The Lord Yahweh. The Great I Am. As some are listed in Hebrews 11, the Hall of Faith. Able, Abraham, Noah, Moses. Hebrews 11:6 God rewards those who seek Him. These people awaited Jesus' sacrifice in Abraham's Bossom (Luke 16). So, again, the 2nd person of the Trinity is separated from Father Yahweh. Even though they were together in time an space, Jesus had to be born and go to the cross to free the O.T. faithful.

The other way I understand this, is that Jesus was prefigured in the O.T. He's all over the O.T.! It'a looking forward to the "King" that was to come. It's not King David's earthly son who would reign over the earth, but Jesus as prefigured by David's son. A foreshadowing of things to come. So Joel 2:32 is speaking of Yahweh in the previous sense. It's a historical rendering. It's Yahweh who would save His people if they repented of their sins at which time He would pour out His Holy Spirit Joel 2:28 on all mankind. And, in the foreshadowing sense, this refers to Jesus as He was to be the King of the New Covenant for all mankind. And Yahweh did pour out His spirit on all manking in Acts 2:4 Again, Jesus went away and the Holy Spirit came - two separate persons of the one nature of God.

Also, another poster mentioned about the words Lord and LORD. I doubt the O.T. was translated exactly. It seems the word Lord was used many times when other names of God should have been used. I've never done a study of this, it would be too intensive for my purposes, however, even in Joel the translation is Lord and I believe the Greek should be Yahweh, according to Young's.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Smaller, I disagree. It is not a mistake but it is a subject to seldom preached and when it is, my opinion, it is not, oft, preached with any explanation, as though all present understand that three persons can be one God and not three gods.

This thread is a result of chopper making the statement that (basically) Jesus was not YHWH (or AS ONE/involved???) with YHWH. Which is of course impossible in the orthodox case of the trinity.

So you might delineate just what it is you think you are disagreeing on.

 

[smaller]

The shirtsleeve theology rule for the trinity is that dividing is an infraction.

 

[JLB]

Hi Chopper,

Interesting question. How do you divide God? And yet He must be divided or our human brain gets all mixed up.
There's only one God. There are not 3 Gods. So why do we keep speaking as if there were three? Because even though there's only one God, He has three distinct persons He shows to us. So God is all and All are God. But divide we must.

Yahweh is not Jesus. Yahweh is God the Father. The Almighty, the Creator.
Jesus is the Word of God.
The Holy Spirit is our paraclete.
But they are still all ONE GOD. Deuteronomy says there is only one God. Deuteronomy 6:4

I go with Dianegcook. Even though there is only one God, He has distinct roles to play. I don't want to get into the Trinity, per se, but The Father generated the Son for our salvation.
He decided that He wanted to create.
The Son does the will of the Father.
He fulfills the prophesies of the O.T.
He reconciles us to God the Father through His sacrifice.
The Holy Spirit is our paraclete.
He convicts us of sin.
He guides us in uderstanding the word of God.

So it was Jesus, the Word, the 2nd person of the Trinity on the cross.
The Holy Spirit came after Jesus left to be with us forever.
The Father created all we see and the first man and woman.

John 6:38 Jesus says He came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent Jesus. Who sent Him? Did He send Himself? Yes and no. This is the big mystery of the Trinity.
It's like you see a man. He's one man. But to one he is a father, to another he's a brother and to still another he's an uncle. If he's an uncle to the third, is he also his father, no. But he still IS a father.

So it's not right to say that Yahweh is Jesus. Yahweh is the Father. All three were present when Yahweh created all. Jesus was His word and the Holy Spirit was His breath. When Jesus was baptized, all three were present, Jesus, the Father speaking from heaven (Mathew 3:16-17) and the Holy Spirit as a dove. They were all there present and separate. Each was distinctly named.

So One is All and All are One and all were always present but the roles are divided.

Romans 10:9 is Jesus. Because we call on His name as the Savior. The Son.
Romans 10:13 is Jesus.
But it refers to the O.T. Joel 2:32

I understand this in two different ways. First of all, even in the O.T. people called on the name of the Lord and were saved. The Lord Yahweh. The Great I Am. As some are listed in Hebrews 11, the Hall of Faith. Able, Abraham, Noah, Moses. Hebrews 11:6 God rewards those who seek Him. These people awaited Jesus' sacrifice in Abraham's Bossom (Luke 16). So, again, the 2nd person of the Trinity is separated from Father Yahweh. Even though they were together in time an space, Jesus had to be born and go to the cross to free the O.T. faithful.

The other way I understand this, is that Jesus was prefigured in the O.T. He's all over the O.T.! It'a looking forward to the "King" that was to come. It's not King David's earthly son who would reign over the earth, but Jesus as prefigured by David's son. A foreshadowing of things to come. So Joel 2:32 is speaking of Yahweh in the previous sense. It's a historical rendering. It's Yahweh who would save His people if they repented of their sins at which time He would pour out His Holy Spirit Joel 2:28 on all mankind. And, in the foreshadowing sense, this refers to Jesus as He was to be the King of the New Covenant for all mankind. And Yahweh did pour out His spirit on all manking in Acts 2:4 Again, Jesus went away and the Holy Spirit came - two separate persons of the one nature of God.

Also, another poster mentioned about the words Lord and LORD. I doubt the O.T. was translated exactly. It seems the word Lord was used many times when other names of God should have been used. I've never done a study of this, it would be too intensive for my purposes, however, even in Joel the translation is Lord and I believe the Greek should be Yahweh, according to Young's.

Wondering

Remember: 1 John 5:7 teaches us:

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

These three are One.

Together, these three are One.

It does not say: This One is Three.

Three distinct, and different Persons are One.


Is the Father God? Is the Father omnipresent and present in all places?
Is the Son God? Is the Son omnipresent, and present in all places?
Is the Spirit God? Is the Spirit omnipresent and present in all places?


JLB

 

[Chopper]

God is nothing like Bill Taylor but Bill does seek to be like God, all three members collectively. My sons, natural and adopted, seek to be like this old man and when they are away from me, daughters included, there is an aching in my heart, just as there was in my stepfather's (Dad) heart when I joined the Army.

When Jesus was born, the Son of God was not in Heaven with the Father and if Spirits cry, I see great wells of tears falling from the Father and also from the Holy Spirit. It can not be supported with scripture by me but I see anguish and an empty well in Heaven, all because the Son was not with them.

You are so right my warrior buddy. Just like when I was on the front lines, if a buddy that I depended on to see danger better than I, I was not the same....Good thinking you dried out old corn cob.

 

[Chopper]

Romans 10:9 - Lord - kyrios G2962
Romans 10:13 - Lord - kyrios G2962

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2962&t=KJV

We call on the Name of Jesus to be saved.

Jesus is YHWH.

Joshua = YĕHoWsHuwa`- Strong’s Number: 3091

“YHWH is salvation” = the Lord is salvation


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3091&t=KJV

The translators couldn't decide, whether it was Jesus and Joshua, in Hebrews 4:8

• For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV
• For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 KJV

If you need to add some letters to YHWH, add these - YĕHoWsHuwa`


Why wouldn't God the father name His only begotten Son after Him?

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11

The name above all names, is Jesus. The name of YHWH Elohim.

The name that expressed by all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.


JLB

Romans 10:13 is a mis-translation of LORD. KJV translates Lord as Jehovah.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The shirtsleeve theology rule for the trinity is that dividing is an infraction.

Are you certain God can be forced to obey rules of mathematics? It seems I recall that, mathematically, it is always impossible for zero to ever equal any higher number but where the was void, zero, there is the Earth with Billions of people on it and then there are the animals... your, apparent, idea makes it impossible that we are here... mathematically.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This thread is a result of chopper making the statement that (basically) Jesus was not YHWH (or AS ONE/involved???) with YHWH. Which is of course impossible in the orthodox case of the trinity.

So you might delineate just what it is you think you are disagreeing on.

Just as I have asked you not to do to me, you have done to Chopper. Chopper denied naught in the OP, he asked a question, clear and simple.

 

[smaller]

Just as I have asked you not to do to me, you have done to Chopper. Chopper denied naught in the OP, he asked a question, clear and simple.

You disagree with me automatically. I just asked you to specify what you disagree with. Fairly simple.

 

[smaller]

Several people have said that Jesus is the God of the Old Covenant (Testament).

And for the record, yes, that is entirely TRUE.

At least that's how it comes across to me. Someone actually believes that YHWH is Jesus.

Again, yes.

Personally, I believe that God the Father did things, God the Son did things and God the Holy Spirit did things. This is an over simplification of the subject but Who did what? Or did all members of the Essence of the Godhead equally involve Themselves in each endeavor?

Posturing "unequal" in the One God arena is always problematic.

John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Is this a proof text that Jesus the Son of God did everything in the Old Covenant?

God did. Yes. The instant that a person disqualifies Jesus as God they immediately fall into other issues.

Did Jesus the Son of God give Moses the Law? etc etc.

Unquestionably. Jesus has always been The Word of God.

IF we say the O.T. Words of God are not the Words of God there are problems. If we say Jesus isn't/wasn't The Word of God, even more problems.

The reason I noted this problem in the other thread was because I've heard this form of denial used to denigrate or eliminate the Word of God in the O.T. as applicable to N.T. believers, which claim I find laughable. The entire N.T. and the principles deployed therein were established from the O.T. Word of God.