th1b.taylor
Member
There is nothing automatic. And if you read the last three of my posts I did lay out my disagreement points.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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Bible Study Who of the Godhead Did What In The Old Covenant (Testament)?
- Thread starter Chopper
- Start date
YHWH is Hebrew.
Kurios is Greek.
New Testament is in Greek.
Joel 2, written in Hebrew is YHWH, which is my point.
Paul, in his letter to the Romans show us that by confessing Jesus as the Lord [YHWH] you are saved.
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13
...whoever calls on the name of Lord [YHWH], will be saved.
Paul makes clear which Lord he is referring to, by quoting Joel 2, and referencing YHWH, the Savior of Israel.
Jesus is the name we call on.
Jesus is the name of the Lord [YHWH].
Four letters were only given in the old testament for the name of the Lord of Israel, the Savior, Redeemer and King.
- Jesus is the Savior.
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
Jesus is our great God and Savior!
- Jesus is the redeemer.
Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 1 Peter 1:18-19
- Jesus is the King.
Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6
Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” John 1:49
Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.
John 19:21
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58
JLB
smaller
Member
I have no idea what anger you are speaking of quite frankly.
My response on this general category is that the Trinity can not be divided without encountering problems. This is a fairly simple premise that has been the norm in orthodox trinity theological understandings for a couple thousand years or so now.
If you have a response in disagreement, please stipulate with specifics what they are.
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Chopper
Member
Yep! No problem here.
Deborah13
Member
From Young's Literal Translation....I change the 'J' to 'Y' as in Hebrew, yud.
Isa 44:6 Thus said Yehovah, king of Israel, And his Redeemer, Yehovah of Hosts: `I am the first, and I the last, And besides Me there is no God.[Elohim]
Isa 44:7 And who as I, doth call and declare it, And arrange it for Me, Since My placing the people of antiquity, And things that are coming, And those that do come, declare they to them?
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid, Have I not from that time caused thee to hear, and declared? And ye are My witnesses, Is there a God besides Me? yea, there is none, A Rock I have not known.
There is no other Rock.
1Co 10:2 and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 and all the same spiritual food did eat,
1Co 10:4 and all the same spiritual drink did drink, for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was the Christ;
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12
JLB
smaller
Member
You do understand that if we say "Jesus wasn't in on the deal" with the O.T. there are huge problems?
Chopper
Member
I know fully well that Jesus the Son of God was present on the decisions and actions in the Old Covenant. From my understanding Elohim represents three persons. Now, I know that there are a few people who will disagree with Elohim being a plural name for the Godhead. I have in my possession a rare copy of the KJV. It is the "Newberry Reference Edition" by "Kregel Publications" 1893. This is a very unique edition, now out of print to my knowledge.
Among other great tools of interpretation, Divine titles are distinguished and explained. This is a very scholarly Bible, not for a beginner....Now, my question in this thread is simply, which one of the Godhead is the One Who is actually doing the work. Perhaps that can't be determined since all three cannot be separated. Since all the Divine titles are not Elohim, that got me wondering why so many are Jehovah. Does that say something?
Among other great tools of interpretation, Divine titles are distinguished and explained. This is a very scholarly Bible, not for a beginner....Now, my question in this thread is simply, which one of the Godhead is the One Who is actually doing the work. Perhaps that can't be determined since all three cannot be separated. Since all the Divine titles are not Elohim, that got me wondering why so many are Jehovah. Does that say something?
The Godhead is none other than God himself. God is spirit not flesh and blood. Gods spirit manifested into flesh in that of Jesus of the NT and when Jesus was raised from the grave again Gods spirit came to us in what we call the Holy Spirit that dwells in the heart of the believer. It's all Gods spirit.
Revealed to mankind
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Corrupted by mankind:
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Incarnated in Christ Jesus:
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Revealed to mankind
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Corrupted by mankind:
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Incarnated in Christ Jesus:
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Going back through my studies I found these scriptures that will help explain the Godhead:
The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22, 1Peter 1:2)
The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3; 14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4; 5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)
The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)
The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22, 1Peter 1:2)
The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3; 14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4; 5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)
The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)
Chopper
Member
Good post. I understand what you are saying. What I don't understand is that some single out the Christ Jesus and say He is YHWH. Why not say the Holy Spirit is YHWH. All the Godhead is YHWH not just one.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
The answer to all three is YES.
I did say that All 3 are one and One is all 3.
You keep saying that "these three are One."
NOT "this One is three."
What's the difference? If I see 3 distinct persons but somehow they are One
How is that different from:
I see One person but in that one person are three distinct persons.
I fail to see the difference.
I do believe it's wrong to say that the Holy Spirit was on the cross or that Yahweh was on the cross. No. Jesus was on the cross. The distinct personhood of Jesus was on the cross. The Holy Spirit had not come yet and the Father was in heaven. "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." Luke 23:46
Was Jesus speaking to Himself? He was one of the three persons who each share in the nature of God.
If you could explain better what you mean by "these three are one" I'd appreciate it.
Wondering
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Smaller
When attempting to explain the Trinity, everything is an infraction.
One always will seem to be explaining 3 different Gods and have to keep repeating there's only one God.
I want to repeat that each PERSON of the Godhead has a distinct role to play and is separate from the others although they are all one. These 3 are One as JLB would say.
Who breathed life into Adam if the breath of God is the Holy Spirit? God breathed the Spirit of life into Adam.
Would it be right to say: The Father breathed The Father into Adam? No. God breathed - His breath is the Holy Spirit - He breathed Life, the Holy Spirit gives life - into Adam. (Genesis 2:7)
Wondering
Chopper, it's all in how one is taught. There are so many names used for God in all the various languages, but what it all comes down to is the manifestation of Gods spirit and how He speaks to us.
When the NT applies OT passages to Christ, there is a connection being made. Notice all the uses of "For" at the beginning of the verses:
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Each "For" connects back to what was stated previously. In this case the first statement, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord...you will be saved," is being connected to 'For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."' Paul is equating these two statements. In other words, in applying the OT passage which uses YHWH, Paul is saying that one must confess not only that Jesus is Lord (in the sense of master) of one's life, but that he is YHWH, that he is God. I think this is undeniable given the context.
And we see other uses of this in the NT where OT passage regarding YHWH are applied directly to Jesus, which is to make Jesus YHWH and make claims to his deity.
smaller
Member
"and is separate"
Uh, no.
Again Jesus is every bit, God. What happened in the GoE did NOT happen apart from Jesus' FULL participation.
It's not like Gods Word of Law or Gods Actions or any Word of God was hidden from and done apart from Jesus or without the consent and participation of Jesus. The entirety of that notion flirts solidly with Marcionism. (The heresy = rejection of the O.T., the God of Israel and only Pauline Epistles are applicable to N.T. believers.)
An amazing amount of N.T. believers though pander to the notions in various ways. Rejection of Gods Word in Laws being one of them.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Free,
You say that the use of the word "for" connects to something said previously. Okay. But then you go ahead and say it connects to the O.T. Okay there too. But Romans 10:9 doesn't seem to be connecting to the O.T. in a direct way. Paul is speaking of Jesus.
I think part of the misunderstanding between us here, is the word Yahweh interchanged with God.
Yes. Jesus is God. But He's not Yahweh. Yahweh is a title given to God the Father, the Creator, just like Immanuel is a title given to Jesus. Why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel? Because it was a title that comes from the O.T.
Isaiah 7:14 A foreshadowing of Jesus. Immanuel means God with us. Jesus was God with us so it was a title, His name is Jesus (God saves).
In this same way, Yahweh is a title given to God. God has different names to denote different characteristics. Yahweh is the most important title. It mean the Creator, the One who decides, the Almighty One, the Great I AM.
So my understanding is that we must confess Jesus is Lord - master, as you said. And we must also understand that he is God. A person of the Godhead. But if we're to distinguish the 1st person of the Trinity from the 2nd person of the Trinity then we can't say He's Yahweh.
Wondering
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Okay. I see what you mean. I don't know about these different beliefs.
It's really difficult to explain the Trinity and I doubt our finite brains could handle this.
I'm a Trinitarian in the full concept of the word and traditional Christianity.
I don't even know what marcionism is.
I do, however, agree with your statements above. When God created the earth in Genesis, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were there. I thought I had stated this.
God, as creator was present. Genesis 1:1
Jesus as the Word of God was present. All things were made THROUGH him. John 1:3
The Holy Spirit was there as the breath of God. Genesis 2:7
Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in our image. God is plural.
However, we don't say The Holy Spirit was nailed to the cross. Or, Yahweh was baptized in the River Jordan. See? We're separating them so WE could understand. I, personally, don't understand how God could be separated, although I know we have to "separate" Him in order to be able to speak about Him.
This is what I mean by "separate."
Wondering