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Bible Study Who of the Godhead Did What In The Old Covenant (Testament)?

for_his_glory said:
Chopper, it's all in how one is taught. There are so many names used for God in all the various languages, but what it all comes down to is the manifestation of Gods spirit and how He speaks to us.
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Thank you my friend for that gentle instruction. You're right of course.
 
I guess thats why The Most High just says he is who he is, and the real Christ out of the many jesus's is the name above all names.

The Most High dont have a name. The Most High are who it are.

You cant put a name on a Holy Spirit.

Knowone can put a single name. Even in rev the name is just faithful and true.
 
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wondering said:
Okay. I see what you mean. I don't know about these different beliefs.
It's really difficult to explain the Trinity and I doubt our finite brains could handle this.
I'm a Trinitarian in the full concept of the word and traditional Christianity.
I don't even know what marcionism is.

I do, however, agree with your statements above. When God created the earth in Genesis, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were there. I thought I had stated this.

God, as creator was present. Genesis 1:1
Jesus as the Word of God was present. All things were made THROUGH him. John 1:3
The Holy Spirit was there as the breath of God. Genesis 2:7
Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in our image. God is plural.

However, we don't say The Holy Spirit was nailed to the cross. Or, Yahweh was baptized in the River Jordan. See? We're separating them so WE could understand.
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Separation remains theologically problematic. Early church deliberations dealt with this at length in establishing the trinity. Your sight remains in the problematic realm in a bit of circular logic. The first paragraph expresses understanding. The second, separation. It's not unusual though. Non-separation is the simplest basic to keep in mind.

There are forms of radicalism in non-separation as well in orthodoxy particularly coupled with the works salvation arena, that I might have some minor differences with. Jesus was/is fully human in His Nature, but without sin. A rather large distinction in His humanity by comparisons. None of us can really say what that is by experience in our humanity.
 
wondering said:
You keep saying that "these three are One."
NOT "this One is three."

What's the difference?
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One is three is the UPC "Oneness" doctrine.

Oneness Pentecostal theology affirms that there exists only one God in all the universe. It affirms the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. However, Oneness theology denies the Trinity. The Trinity is the doctrine that there is one God who exists as three distinct, simultaneous persons. The Trinity does not assert that there are three gods but only one. This is important because many groups who oppose orthodoxy will accuse Trinitarians of believing in three gods. But this is not so. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God in three persons.

Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed Himself as Father in the Old Testament and as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.
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https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal-theology


John says these Three, are One.

By saying Three, John teaches there are Three who bear witness in heaven, and together these Three are One.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

Oneness says: there is One that bear witness in heaven, and this One manifest's as Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit.



JLB
 
JLB said:
One is three is the UPC "Oneness" doctrine.

https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal-theology

John says these Three, are One.

By saying Three, John teaches there are Three who bear witness in heaven, and together these Three are One.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

Oneness says: there is One that bear witness in heaven, and this One manifest's as Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit.

JLB
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CARM's analysis is good. It does get to picking at fleas to some extent when saying One is Three or Three are One. The UPC leans heavily on "works salvation" and this is part of the problem at the heart of differences. With most trinity variances there is works salvation behind them that impels the subtleties.
 
JLB said:
One is three is the UPC "Oneness" doctrine.

https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal-theology

John says these Three, are One.

By saying Three, John teaches there are Three who bear witness in heaven, and together these Three are One.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

Oneness says: there is One that bear witness in heaven, and this One manifest's as Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit.

JLB
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Oh my. I'm feeling so ignorant right now.
What minute nuances! What a thin red line.
It's no wonder we have trouble understanding each other.
Seems like you have to know all the other beliefs besides your own!

I don't deny the Trinity. I said I was a Trinitarian. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed together.

I see what you mean now by These Three Are One. But will I remember this phraseology the next time around?? Will try. Thanks for the info.

Wondering
 
wondering said:
Oh my. I'm feeling so ignorant right now.
What minute nuances! What a thin red line.
It's no wonder we have trouble understanding each other.
Seems like you have to know all the other beliefs besides your own!

I don't deny the Trinity. I said I was a Trinitarian. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed together.

I see what you mean now by These Three Are One. But will I remember this phraseology the next time around?? Will try. Thanks for the info.

Wondering
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What is important, is that we know and confess Jesus as Lord.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

Beware of those who would convince you that Jesus was only a man, and is not God, manifested in the Flesh.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV

These same ones claim Jesus had no existence, before He was born of the virgin.

The Lord bless you and keep you.


JLB
 
wondering said:
Hi Free,
You say that the use of the word "for" connects to something said previously. Okay. But then you go ahead and say it connects to the O.T. Okay there too. But Romans 10:9 doesn't seem to be connecting to the O.T. in a direct way. Paul is speaking of Jesus.

I think part of the misunderstanding between us here, is the word Yahweh interchanged with God.
Yes. Jesus is God. But He's not Yahweh. Yahweh is a title given to God the Father, the Creator, just like Immanuel is a title given to Jesus. Why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel? Because it was a title that comes from the O.T.

Isaiah 7:14 A foreshadowing of Jesus. Immanuel means God with us. Jesus was God with us so it was a title, His name is Jesus (God saves).

In this same way, Yahweh is a title given to God. God has different names to denote different characteristics. Yahweh is the most important title. It mean the Creator, the One who decides, the Almighty One, the Great I AM.

So my understanding is that we must confess Jesus is Lord - master, as you said. And we must also understand that he is God. A person of the Godhead. But if we're to distinguish the 1st person of the Trinity from the 2nd person of the Trinity then we can't say He's Yahweh.

Wondering
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Good morning Wondering,
You, likely, already know my view of the scriptures but for clarity I restate it here. The Bible is, by practical application, the Books of what we, Christians, know as the Old Testament and the following twenty-seven are the God Ordained Commentaries on the application of the Bible. I say this because Jesus taught from the Bible and there was no New Testament when He walked the earth.

We Christians are progressively sliding away from the close warmth of our LORD as we continue to ¿refine? the Bible and one of the worst things we ever did was to ditch the work of Dr. Thompson's Chain Reference and of the Naval Chaplin, Nave. When we do the different studies from the Nave's Topical or when we follow the chains mapped out by Thompson we can clearly see our New Testament writings commenting on the scriptures of the Old Testament.

Now to deal with the issue, it is defined in the scriptures posted by Chopper, John 1:1-3 and it does seem to clearly say that all things were created by Jesus. I agree, one hundred percent, that YHWH created everything and that presents a great faith tester because it is just a small child's skip to YHWH being Jesus and therein lays my hesitance to be too dogmatic on this issue.

As I see it, until I am in Heaven and possibly, not even then, can I be dogmatic about who did what in the Bible Jesus taught from other than all Three are coequal in all thing.
 
wondering said:
Oh my. I'm feeling so ignorant right now.
What minute nuances! What a thin red line.
It's no wonder we have trouble understanding each other.
Seems like you have to know all the other beliefs besides your own!

I don't deny the Trinity. I said I was a Trinitarian. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed together.

I see what you mean now by These Three Are One. But will I remember this phraseology the next time around?? Will try. Thanks for the info.

Wondering
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Don't feel ignorant... there is not a member of this forum, including one, screen name chosen, unknown yet, who I respect immensely. Until we are with our LORD none of us have any more than our God given, God strengthened Faith to set our believes on for the scriptures are a complete mystery to the Lost and we still see through the veil darkly.
 
JLB said:
What is important, is that we know and confess Jesus as Lord.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

Beware of those who would convince you that Jesus was only a man, and is not God, manifested in the Flesh.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV

These same ones claim Jesus had no existence, before He was born of the virgin.

The Lord bless you and keep you.


JLB
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Hi JLB

I don't know about the oneness belief and will read your link later when it's quiet around here.
But this I know for sure: Jesus is God!
"Who do YOU say that I am?" Mathew 16:15
I think the most important question in the entire bible.

What is our faith based on? It has to be based on the Apostles. Even more than Paul or the other writers of the letters. The apostles introduced us to Jesus. They told us (at least Mathew and John were apostles) how Jesus preached, how He died and how He breathed again on the 3rd day.
1 John 1:1-4

If we can't trust them, who are we to trust? If Jesus wasn't God, He was a madman who thought He was! Or they were all liars and not to be trusted. So it'll be very difficult for anyone to convince me that Jesus is not God.

I'd like to add that when I met the Lord many years ago, I knew nothing of what I wrote above. I just knew that God had spoken to me and told me things that were true and I felt like I understood all the mysteries of the universe. I didn't even know anything about the Trinity back then. I just knew the words, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.

Wondering
 
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th1b.taylor said:
Good morning Wondering,
You, likely, already know my view of the scriptures but for clarity I restate it here. The Bible is, by practical application, the Books of what we, Christians, know as the Old Testament and the following twenty-seven are the God Ordained Commentaries on the application of the Bible. I say this because Jesus taught from the Bible and there was no New Testament when He walked the earth.

We Christians are progressively sliding away from the close warmth of our LORD as we continue to ¿refine? the Bible and one of the worst things we ever did was to ditch the work of Dr. Thompson's Chain Reference and of the Naval Chaplin, Nave. When we do the different studies from the Nave's Topical or when we follow the chains mapped out by Thompson we can clearly see our New Testament writings commenting on the scriptures of the Old Testament.

Now to deal with the issue, it is defined in the scriptures posted by Chopper, John 1:1-3 and it does seem to clearly say that all things were created by Jesus. I agree, one hundred percent, that YHWH created everything and that presents a great faith tester because it is just a small child's skip to YHWH being Jesus and therein lays my hesitance to be too dogmatic on this issue.

As I see it, until I am in Heaven and possibly, not even then, can I be dogmatic about who did what in the Bible Jesus taught from other than all Three are coequal in all thing.
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H Taylor,
Yes. When Jesus spoke of the scriptures He meant the O.T.
For study I use the NAS and it does have a chain reference, maybe not as extensive as the one you mention above which I'm not familiar with.
I reread my post no. 33 and I can see how one knowing so much more than I do could take some things the wrong way. Uffa.
All three were present at creation. God is the thought, Jesus is the Word, the Holy Spirit is the breath God speaks and which is issued when the Word is spoken. Is this correct in your understanding?

Jesus was generated, not created. He always existed. He came down to earth from heaven.
He introduces us to our Father in heaven. God was never referred to as Father in the O.T.
He leaves and sends the Holy Spirit, who always existed but can now indwell within us in a different way and available to all.
Is this clear? Do you agree?

Wondering
 
Unity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) means the fact or state of being one in agreement or in harmony as one Lord (God), one faith Jesus) and one baptism (Holy Spirit), Ephesians 4:5. It’s all Gods Spirit in agreement with each action his Spirit performs or commands of us as we are born again by His word and Spirit, John 3:5. It’s all Gods Spirit manifested in three different forms for the purpose of his ministry. God can take on many different forms for us to hear him speak to us and bring us into that unity that is one spirit.
 
for_his_glory said:
Unity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) means the fact or state of being one in agreement or in harmony as one Lord (God), one faith Jesus) and one baptism (Holy Spirit), Ephesians 4:5. It’s all Gods Spirit in agreement with each action his Spirit performs or commands of us as we are born again by His word and Spirit, John 3:5. It’s all Gods Spirit manifested in three different forms for the purpose of his ministry. God can take on many different forms for us to hear him speak to us and bring us into that unity that is one spirit.
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Hi for his glory
You see, we each have our way of understanding and describing that understanding. Wouldn't you say it's enough to say "I'm a trinitarian?"

In my post no. 39 I asked you a question. There was no reply. It's a perfect example of how one could be misunderstood. I didn't know what you meant and I asked. What you said made me think of a particular faith and with your above post, I realize you couldn't have meant what I thought of.

Wondering
 
wondering said:
Hi JLB

I don't know about the oneness belief and will read your link later when it's quiet around here.
But this I know for sure: Jesus is God!
"Who do YOU say that I am?" Mathew 16:15
I think the most important question in the entire bible.

What is our faith based on? It has to be based on the Apostles. Even more than Paul or the other writers of the letters. The apostles introduced us to Jesus. They told us (at least Mathew and John were apostles) how Jesus preached, how He died and how He breathed again on the 3rd day.
1 John 1:1-4

If we can't trust them, who are we to trust? If Jesus wasn't God, He was a madman who thought He was! Or they were all liars and not to be trusted. So it'll be very difficult for anyone to convince me that Jesus is not God.

I'd like to add that when I met the Lord many years ago, I knew nothing of what I wrote above. I just knew that God had spoken to me and told me things that were true and I felt like I understood all the mysteries of the universe. I didn't even know anything about the Trinity back then. I just knew the words, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.

Wondering
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Yes Ma'am.


JLB
 
wondering said:
Are Krishna and Buddha also God then?

W
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To their religion as they believe they would be their god, but the God of all creation we serve is not about any mans religion. The Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.
 
wondering said:
Hi for his glory
You see, we each have our way of understanding and describing that understanding. Wouldn't you say it's enough to say "I'm a trinitarian?"

In my post no. 39 I asked you a question. There was no reply. It's a perfect example of how one could be misunderstood. I didn't know what you meant and I asked. What you said made me think of a particular faith and with your above post, I realize you couldn't have meant what I thought of.

Wondering
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Sorry Wondering, I didn't see the post #39 until now.

I'm not much into using big words like trinitarion as even words like that can be confusing to those who are young in learning. I have taught Trinity before, but also have to break it down so even a child can understand. I try my best to make things easy to understand and am always opened for others questions to me.
 
for_his_glory said:
To their religion as they believe they would be their god, but the God of all creation we serve is not about any mans religion. The Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.
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Great explanation of religion. I also have taught the Trinity to kids. You know, the triangle, the water, steam, ice trick. However I'd try to explain it, it always sounded like 3 different Gods.
I like to say that religion is knowing about God. Christianity is knowing God.
I have friends of a certain denomination that are very concerned with what their church is doing, how some doctrine might change, what religious holiday is coming up and other such talk. I never hear them mention the word Jesus. Although I do believe they might be saved - who am I to judge? Only Jesus can make the relationship personal, IMO. He walked this earth, we beheld Him. John 1:14

Wondering
 
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