Who raised Christ from the dead?

[Rick W]

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.



Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

 

[Imagican]

Rick,

I understand WHY you believe this to be an offering that Christ would RAISE Himself. I do not agree though.

Consider this: That THROUGH the faithfulness of Christ, God's WILL was accomplished. That through HIs faithfulness TO The Father, Christ was able to RAISE a NEW temple in three days. That means that WHEN He arose, there was NO LONGER a temple built by the hands of MEN that God or His Son would dwell in. But the temple is NOW within the HEARTS of those that follow Them in TRUTH.

Now, what has any of this to DO with WHO raised Christ. LITTLE if ANY. For we KNOW that IF Christ TRULY died, then it WAS The Father who raised Him from the dead. Otherwise Christ WASN'T TRULY DEAD. Just as the last couple of offerings of Christ were APPEALS TO The Father, so too would it have been the Father who RAISED HIS SON, as promised to the faithful, once He was TRULY DEAD.

Now LOOK at the truth of my words: You accept that the words of Christ WERE symbolic in that He didn't LITERALLY mean that IF they tore down a PHYSICAL temple that He would raise IT again after three days. What Christ was offering was the 'raising of a NEW temple'. A temple that was THEN Spiritual rather than PHYSICAL. And I do NOT believe that He was offering a LITERAL 'building', but a symbolic offering that this NEW temple would be constructed on HIS faithfulness TO His Father. That He had FULFILLED the will of God and was therefore the architect OF this 'new temple'. NOT by construction, but by FULFILLMENT of the condition necessary FOR it's construction.

It's like this: A man desires to OWN a building. He has the plans drawn up, lines up the contractors, and then gives the 'go ahead'. The building gets built and when finished, the man says: "Look at that building, ""I"" built it". When in reality it was NOT 'built BY him'. But through the labor of those that had the ABILITY to actually BUILD it. The man simply fulfilled the obligation NEEDED for the building to BE built. This same man could have offered, "tear down this existing building and '"i"' will REBUILD it in three months".

I hope that I have been able to put this in words that are able to be understood. "My Father, why hath thou forsaken me". These words PLAINLY show that Christ was DEPENDANT and FAITHFUL TO the Father. That the POWER of Christ was NOT OF HIS OWN but GIVEN Him BY The Father. Without the FATHER, the Son would NOT have existed PREVIOUS TO or AFTER His resserection. It was plainly offered by Christ Himself over and over that HIS power was FROM the Father.

Christ died for US AND THE FATHER. For us, so that we wouldn't have to. For the Father in that He was FAITHFUL to HIS calling. That is WAS God's will that Christ DIE upon a cross. Christ did NOT HAVE to DO this. His words offer the truth of the matter in that He prayed that 'the cup pass over Him'. But was FAITHFUL in that He wished that THY WILL BE DONE and NOT HIs OWN.

Rick, Don't take away the precious gift that has been offered us BY God THROUGH HIS SON; a FAITHFUL and LOYAL servant TO the Father. IF Christ WERE God Himself, HOW could we POSSIBLY hope to obtain an inheretance as that offered TO The Son. For it was THROUGH the flesh that sin came INTO the world and BY the FLESH of the Son that it was defeated. Christ IS our example. And to believe anything other than Christ AS The Son is to place HIM in a position SO high that we have NO hope of attainment.

With the strength of God and His Son, we CAN obtain a more righteous place in existence. We CAN become that which PLEASES The Father, Our God. WE TOO, CAN become 'sons of God' through the blood of Jesus Christ, the ONLY Begotten.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And let me add this: Christ KNEW His Father PREVIOUS to coming in the flesh. He KNEW the PLAN. THAT is what made it POSSIBLE for Christ to endure. For THIS is FAITH: Christ KNEW that IF He were FAITHFUL, that the FATHER, (God), would BE faithful AS WELL. How else would it have been possible for Christ to FACE what He faced without faultering? He KNEW that IF He followed the WILL of His Father that His Father would BE faithful to the PLAN.

We TOO can have such faith. Though not LIKELY among many, there is that FACT that we have been OFFERED such faith through CHRIST. That IS the example towards usward. That we strive to BE as Christ's example was offered to us. That we strive to LOVE our Father and neighbors ABOVE ourselves. That we strive to OFFER instead of TAKE. That we BE faithful in hope that one day we will receive that which has been promised. And what was the FOUNDING PRINCIPLE of Christ's faith? He KNEW the Father. That HIS GOD and Father would be FAITHFUL IN RETURN.

My proof? Just LISTEN to the words offered by Christ AND His apostles: MY Father. Our God and the God of Jesus Christ ARE the SAME God. These words couldn't BE more clear.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Rick W]

John 2:19 is specifically referring to His physical body. And there is no reference to a "temple" in 10:18. He states fact, nothing symbolic.

Why can people have a body AND a spirit but not Jesus?

Now, what has any of this to DO with WHO raised Christ. LITTLE if ANY. For we KNOW that IF Christ TRULY died, then it WAS The Father who raised Him from the dead. Otherwise Christ WASN'T TRULY DEAD. Just as the last couple of offerings of Christ were APPEALS TO The Father, so too would it have been the Father who RAISED HIS SON, as promised to the faithful, once He was TRULY DEAD.

Are you saying the spirit of Christ died as well as His body?

 

[Imagican]

Rick,

I don't know if I can answer your question in a 'way' that would satisfy EVERYONE.

I can offer this: It was MANDATORY that Christ DIE in the flesh. We KNOW that HIs Spirit visited hell. We KNOW that hell IS The Grave. What conciousness He experienced upon the MOMENT of HIs death we DO NOT KNOW.

We have been offered that ALL but a very few experience the 'sleep' that is KNOWN as 'the grave'. MOST still sleep and most WILL sleep. Whether Christ experienced this or not is not of a matter of importance so far as WHO He IS.

But that it was the Father that Christ refered to in ALL respects so far as POWER and AUTHORITY GIVEN, is without doubt.

I do NOT believe that the Spirit of Christ CEASED to exist and was brought back. But what STATE that Spirit experienced would SEEM to mandate that HE experience the SAME THING as ALL other men to a DEGREE. For He was SENT in order to LIVE AS US. To BE a 'man' subject to the forces that ALL men are subject to. Anything less would have made Him INCOMPLETE for His purpose.

Question: did CHRIST die on the cross? That is really the ONLY issue that is pertinent to the conversation. Either He DID or He DIDN'T. I believe that HE DID indeed DIE on the cross. He HAD to in order to DIE FOR US. That means that He HAD to be ABANDONED BY GOD for at LEAST a 'time'. He STATED as much in HIs final words before He 'gave up the ghost'.

Now, can 'that which CEASES to exist' in reality BE responsible for it's OWN ressurection? I don't THINK so. The Father MADE promises TO The Son. The Father DELIVERED on His promises. We have this offered up in scripture and that's enough for me. Christ was MADE flesh BY The Father. Christ was certainly given POWER by The Father. And there can be little doubt in MY MIND and HEART that The Father was responsible for His ressurection as WELL.

So, what EXACTLY took place 'other than' HIs death is not recorded EXACTLY. I don't believe we NEED this in order to believe and follow that which WAS of most IMPORT. And we know, Rick, that Christ NOW sits AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. That He was GIVEN this PLACE. That He does INDEED 'live again'. And that 'this LIFE' is WITHOUT END. That one day, ALL knees shall bow in recognition of God's Son who made such a sacrifice for US.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[shad]

Rick,

John 10:18
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Jesus was sent by His Father. Jesus takes command from His Father. His Father raised Him up. His Father cannot die.

 

[shad]

Rick, here is another;

Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Jesus is not saying His kingdom; He is saying "My Father's kingdom".

I can bring up many more about God and Jesus' identities and relationship.

 

[francisdesales]

I can offer this: It was MANDATORY that Christ DIE in the flesh.

Eh? Mandatory??? Nothing is mandatory for God - unless you think HE answers to a higher power, like the bible or something...

But that it was the Father that Christ refered to in ALL respects so far as POWER and AUTHORITY GIVEN, is without doubt.

And yet, the Scriptures report Christ HIMSELF as saying that HE would provide the power to "take it up (His life) again...

Jesus did not say that "God" will take it up, but I will take it up...

Question: did CHRIST die on the cross? That is really the ONLY issue that is pertinent to the conversation. Either He DID or He DIDN'T. I believe that HE DID indeed DIE on the cross. He HAD to in order to DIE FOR US.

Why did Jesus "have" to die, then? What would be the significance of a man dying on the cross for your sake, 2000 years removed?

That means that He HAD to be ABANDONED BY GOD for at LEAST a 'time'. He STATED as much in HIs final words before He 'gave up the ghost'.

Many people link these words to the words of the Psalm and it inevitable ending, rather than an ontological separation, which is not possible.

Now, can 'that which CEASES to exist' in reality BE responsible for it's OWN ressurection? I don't THINK so.

Christians do not make the claim that "Jesus ceased to exist" upon His death. His Spirit still existed, as related by the fact that He preached to the souls in "Hades".

The Father MADE promises TO The Son. The Father DELIVERED on His promises. We have this offered up in scripture and that's enough for me. Christ was MADE flesh BY The Father. Christ was certainly given POWER by The Father. And there can be little doubt in MY MIND and HEART that The Father was responsible for His ressurection as WELL.

Despite the very words of Christ saying HE takes it up again, as Rick relates...

I certainly am not presenting a dichotomy between the Father and the Son. However, Christ, by His words, recognizes and implies that HE HIMSELF will take up His life. A little reflection leads us to consider that Christ HIMSELF, having this power after His death, would be God Himself in the form of flesh.

Regards

 

[shad]

Rick, here is another:

Matthew 26:39 (New International Version)

39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Why is Jesus asking His Father??? Because Jesus is only doing His Father's will. Jesus does not do anthing on His own.

some more coming after my break

 

[Rick W]

Shad,
I'm going to remain focused on Christ's words in the scripture presented.
Either He didn't raise it up as He said He would or that He didn't have the power to do so, or both.

Or He did raise up His dead body and had the power to do so as He declared.

 

[shad]

Shad,
I'm going to remain focused on Christ's words in the scripture presented.
Either He didn't raise it up as He said He would or that He didn't have the power to do so, or both.

Or He did raise up His dead body and had the power to do so as He declared.

John 10:18
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Jesus says His Father commands Him. This is Jesus' word, brother. You don't have to be genious to figure out who raised from dead. BTW, Jesus power and authority is all came from His Father. So your claim of Jesus and His Father are equal is moot.

I bring up many more that Jesus says they are not equal, and His power and authority is coming from His Father.

 

[Rick W]

Now, can 'that which CEASES to exist' in reality BE responsible for it's OWN ressurection?

Here again Christ's spirit did not die. The Word is life.

I will raise it up.
I have power to take it again.

I am the life.
I am the resurrection.

Christ was the Lamb of God through whose blood, as required for a sacrifice, put an end to all sacrifice for our sins.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

He was given a body, by Virgin Birth, to become the Lamb of God.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

blood - made flesh

And Christ has a spirit as we do. And that spirit raised His body from the dead.
Christ's spirit, the Word, did not die or cease to exist.

I will raise it up.
I have power to take it again.

 

[shad]

Now, can 'that which CEASES to exist' in reality BE responsible for it's OWN ressurection?

Here again Christ's spirit did not die. The Word is life.

I will raise it up.
I have power to take it again.

I am the life.
I am the resurrection.

Christ was the Lamb of God through whose blood, as required for a sacrifice, put an end to all sacrifice for our sins.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

He was given a body, by Virgin Birth, to become the Lamb of God.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

blood - made flesh

And Christ has a spirit as we do. And that spirit raised His body from the dead.
Christ's spirit, the Word, did not die or cease to exist.

I will raise it up.
I have power to take it again.

Rick,

I already showed you that Jesus says His Father commands Him. His Father gives Him authority and power to be our Savior and the truth and the life . His Father is giving enormous credit to be our Savior because He is His beloved first begotten Son, the most faithful and obedient one.

I will bring up many more since you are not satisfied with His Father gives Him command.

 

[LostSoul]

I already showed you that Jesus says His Father commands Him. His Father gives Him authority and power to be our Savior and the truth and the life . His Father is giving enormous credit to be our Savior because He is His beloved first begotten Son, the most faithful and obedient one.

I will bring up many more since you are not satisfied with His Father gives Him command.

Shad,

You and one or two others here have made some interesting points. Something though that I would like try to lay out on the table is when Jesus was about to be crucified....did He not go to the garden to pray that perhaps the cup in which He was to take be removed from Him? Could that itself not be a sign that He, like us was not immune to fear....and like us...had a choice of whether or not to do as God bade Him? Yes, in truth, Jesus also uttered not my will but yours be done. So too did Jesus in fact, die on the cross. Just perhaps some of the initial significance of the whole ordeal here is being overlooked?

As to who raised Christ from the dead.....that in itself is a good question.

Though I will not deny, I am one who believes God very well did and could have resurrected Jesus....I am still not 100% certain on the matter. For I can understand the logic as to why people may take one view or the other. It is something surely worth looking into, no doubt. :yes

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[shad]

Danielle, here is some more strange verses for trinitarians;

Mark 1:35
[ Jesus Prays in a Solitary Place ] Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.

Mark 1:34-36 (in Context) Mark 1 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 5:16

But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.
Luke 5:15-17 (in Context) Luke 5 (Whole Chapter)

John 17:1
[ Jesus Prays for Himself ] After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
John 17:1-3 (in Context) John 17 (Whole Chapter)


Do you see any verses that God the Father prayed to anyone? Yet Jesus payed to His Father very often. :yes

 

[Rick W]

Shad,
Did Christ raise His body as He said He would? And with the power to do so?

 

[shad]

Shad,
Did Christ raise His body as He said He would? And with the power to do so?

God cannot die and Jesus died. God the Father raised Jesus from dead. So the world know that God has truly sent Him to be Savior of the world.

 

[shad]

Rick, here is another Jesus' testimony:

John 17:2 (New International Version)
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

 

[shad]

Here is another Jesus' testimony:

John 17:3-5 (New International Version)
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you (The Father), the only true God(the Father), and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

note: I added parenthesises(sp).

 

[Rick W]

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Christ said He will raise His body and says He has the power to do so.
So He did.

because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

His body dies on the cross, laying down His life, the sacrifice in blood and He takes it up again. He says He has the power to do it.

Pretty clear if you ask me. And no, there's no way to manipulate each word to claim mistranslation.
It's as clear as it gets.



Do you believe He raised it up like He said He would or not?
There's just no way around it Shad. He said and He did.