Who?

[Free]

Philippians 2 is speaking of the disposition of Jesus' mind in his youth, and before and during his ministry, that despite the fact that he was the greatest human ever born and raised, he humbled himself to become a servant to God his Father's will, even to the death on the cross.

That is to seriously diminish what the passage states and ignore the plain and obvious reading of it. Where in the context does it say anything about "the disposition of Jesus' mind in his youth"?

What does it say?

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

Some important points to note about this passage:

1. Jesus was in "the form of God." This is supported by John 1:1--" and the Word was God." The NIV has a clearer rendering of what is meant in verse 6: "being in very nature God." The Expositor's Greek Testament and M. R. Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) agree. That Paul is referring to the divinity of Christ is without question.
2. He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"; that is, being in the form of God, being equal with the Father, he did not consider that equality something to be "forcefully retained [or held onto]." The meaning is that anything to do with the appearance of his glory as God had to be let go of or veiled in order for the completion of his humiliation, which was necessary for man's salvation. Again, the NIV brings out the meaning a bit better: "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage."
3. He, being Jesus, emptied himself. It was he who did the emptying. In other words, he had to already exist in order to be able to be “emptied,” and he had to be sufficiently powerful to do it himself. That is, in contrast with his “taking the form of a servant,” he was something else. He had to be something or someone that was capable of emptying himself. (cf. 2 Cor 8:9)
4. In emptying himself, he took on the "form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men"--this is what John 1:14 is speaking of. First, note that Paul is contrasting Jesus's "taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" with being in the "form of God." Second, the emptying of himself was accomplished by taking on human form. It’s a paradoxical emptying by addition; a limiting or veiling of his glory and power by becoming human. Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind and, as God Incarnate, still maintained his full deity (since God can never cease to be God) in becoming truly and fully human.
5. Being found in "appearance as a man" (NIV)--as opposed to his having been in "the form of God." We know that he was truly human, so why would Paul suddenly say that Jesus was "found in appearance as a man"? Would that not imply that he existed previously, supporting verse 6, and indicate he wasn't a man before?
6. He "humbled himself by becoming obedient." This is exactly why he prays to the Father, does the Father's will, and only speaks what he hears. He subjected himself to the law of God and obeyed it perfectly, fulfilling it and becoming the sacrificial "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29, ESV).
7. He is given “the name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” This is language used of God:

Isa 45:22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’ (ESV)

This is why Christians rightly worship Christ as God.

Paul also agrees with John elsewhere:

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law (ESV)

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

The NT is replete with both explicit and implicit statements of the deity of Jesus. There is simply no way to read the NT and not know that Jesus is both truly God and truly man, apart from denying his deity to begin with and then reinterpret everything to fit.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Jesus sure thought he preexisted, so we probably should too.

I appreciate your long responses, but I will retain my understanding of John 1 and Philippians 2. I find no evidence of God the Son in the OT, but the teaching is that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

The following also speak of the education, character and status of the human Jesus:
Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Isaiah 50:4–9 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

A few comments on part of your posts:

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

I consider that this is similar to John the Baptist's statement, and also that this should be translated as "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28.

Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind and, as God Incarnate, still maintained his full deity (since God can never cease to be God) in becoming truly and fully human.

Part of the impossibilities and contradiction of the Trinity concept.

He is given “the name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” This is language used of God

I noticed that you omitted the full statement of Philippians 2:11 which clearly speaks against the Trinity:
Philippians 2:9–11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

Greetings again Randy and Greetings tdidymas,


I can recall 4 or 5 different denominations that believe in the human Jesus with the One God, God the Father as his father, and with Mary as his mother. Exactly what the other 4 call their "church", I am not completely sure, or what label they would display outside their building. In my region we have eight meetings in my fellowship and none have the label "Biblical Unitarian" and I have NEVER seen any Church in my extensive region with such a sign or description. In my adult 60 years in my fellowship, I have only ever heard the expression "Biblical Unitarian" on possibly two occasions, and this was on the internet by someone in another Australian State. My consent to the title is that it would distinguish between our beliefs on many subjects and the historic Unitarians, who possibly do not believe the verses that I will quote below.

Jesus is a human, the Son of God, with God the Father as his father and Mary his mother. I base my belief on the two records concerning the conception of Jesus:

Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

There is no hint of a prior existence in any of the above.

Kind regards
Trevor

It's beyond me how one can read all that is written of the Lord Jesus and not know God created all things through Him and that He was with the Father in that beginning. To state there is no hint of the prior existence of the Lord is very dishonest. He wasn't the Son of Man then but the Logos became flesh and God was the Logos. The eternal life with the Father in the beginning. The one who came from above is above all and testifies to things "HE" saw and heard as the only eyewitness of God who has appeared in flesh.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The person of the Son was in that beginning. And all the fullness of God the Father was pleased to dwell in Him. Col 1:19-From the will of another He has the Fathers very nature in Him. Again God was the Logos.

He is before all things
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together

But since you state you can see I don't expect you to change your outlook.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Randy,

To state there is no hint of the prior existence of the Lord is very dishonest.

I made that comment initially after quoting Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35.

There is no hint of a prior existence in any of the above.

I also made a similar comment after explaining my understanding of "grace and truth" and "the only begotten of the Father" in John 1:14.

The glory revealed by Jesus was a moral glory, he was "full of grace and truth" at the time of his ministry. This is not speaking of his physical attributes. His connection with God and the derivation of his unique character is that he is "the only begotten of the Father", and the narrative of his begettal is in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35, and again here in John 1:14 there is no hint of a prior physical existence.

I claim that these three Scriptures form the basis of my belief, and the first two Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 are usually avoided by Trinitarians, and the real meaning of the detail in John 1:14 is also avoided by Trinitarians.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[tdidymas]

Greetings tdidymas,

I am very conscious of the full range of the Scripture on this subject and have examined in other threads some of the Trinitarian claims, but I will briefly answer your items and then add another basic text in support of the human Jesus.

John 1:15,30 (KJV): 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
This is speaking of status, position in the plan and purpose of God. John, who was born say 1 year before Jesus would not in normal terms be greater than Jesus because of his age, and age does not confer a superior status

"existed before" or "was before" is chronological, which 17 English translations render it. I believe the translators.

I understand "The Word" in John 1:1 is a personification of God's plan, purpose, wisdom and character similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8. This "Logos" became fulfilled in the birth and ministry of Jesus as stated in
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The glory revealed by Jesus was a moral glory, he was "full of grace and truth" at the time of his ministry. This is not speaking of his physical attributes. His connection with God and the derivation of his unique character is that he is "the only begotten of the Father", and the narrative of his begettal is in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35, and again here in John 1:14 there is no hint of a prior physical existence.

You seem to lack understanding of what "existed before" means, since you think it's talking about a physical existence. Jesus existed as Yahweh Son of the Father in the form of God prior to His physical appearance, as referenced in Phil 2. So He BECAME a man in His physical appearance, meaning He took on Himself human nature in addition to being divine. Prior to His incarnation, He was Spirit and appeared in various forms, including The Angel of the Lord. So then, your idea that "existed before" has to mean physical existence is poppycock.

Philippians 2 is speaking of the disposition of Jesus' mind in his youth, and before and during his ministry, that despite the fact that he was the greatest human ever born and raised, he humbled himself to become a servant to God his Father's will, even to the death on the cross. There is an allusion to the language of the Garden of Eden, where Adam also was formed in the image and likeness of God, but grasped at equality with God. Also Paul alludes to the Servant prophecies of Isaiah, especially the Four Servant Songs, which speak of his ministry, humanity, education and sufferings.

The growth and development of the human Jesus is stated in
Luke 2:40–52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
There is no hint here that Jesus is God. Jesus does not have two minds, and two different abilities, one human and the other Divine, and Jesus is a distinct Being, separate from the One God, Yahweh, God his Father. His development was by "the grace of God" and he grew "in favour with God", clearly distinguishing the One God, God the Father from Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

I disagree with your interpretation. Phil. 2 clearly says that He existed in the form of God prior to His incarnation. Again, your idea is poppycock.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again tdidymas,

Jesus existed as Yahweh Son of the Father in the form of God prior to His physical appearance, as referenced in Phil 2.

There is only One Yahweh, God the Father. I am surprised at your statement that "Jesus existed as Yahweh Son of the Father in the form of God". Did the Father actually create another God?

I disagree with your interpretation. Phil. 2 clearly says that He existed in the form of God prior to His incarnation. Again, your idea is poppycock.

I will hold to my view of Philippians 2 despite your disrespect. Why does Philippians 2:11 say that when we bow the knee to Jesus that this is "to the glory of God the Father"?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

Greetings again Randy,


I made that comment initially after quoting Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35.


I also made a similar comment after explaining my understanding of "grace and truth" and "the only begotten of the Father" in John 1:14.


I claim that these three Scriptures form the basis of my belief, and the first two Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 are usually avoided by Trinitarians, and the real meaning of the detail in John 1:14 is also avoided by Trinitarians.

Kind regards
Trevor

One of several testimonies: Its very clear to me as a living being sees and hears and testifies from memories stored in their soul/mind. I believe ALL that is written of the Son not just a select few passages to fit a different belief. If I read different that supports a glorified man we would be in agreement but I didn't so we will have to agree to disagree. Besides I know Him and He is before all things except His God and Father. He is the Firstborn.

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Randy,

we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[tdidymas]

Greetings again tdidymas,

There is only One Yahweh, God the Father. I am surprised at your statement that "Jesus existed as Yahweh Son of the Father in the form of God". Did the Father actually create another God?

I will hold to my view of Philippians 2 despite your disrespect. Why does Philippians 2:11 say that when we bow the knee to Jesus that this is "to the glory of God the Father"?

Kind regards
Trevor

What surprises me is the fact that you act like you don't know what Trinitarians believe, looks disingenuous to me.

Furthermore, how can Jesus say in Rev. 3:20 "I will come into him and sup with him" unless He is God who is omnipresent? Notice He doesn't say "God will come into him," but rather "I will come into him." If Jesus were really your lesser Jesus, he would be lying then.

But at this point I'm not interested in an endless debate, so I'll let you go your way.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again tdidymas,

What surprises me is the fact that you act like you don't know what Trinitarians believe, looks disingenuous to me.

I am not sure what particular faction of Trinitarians are the standard, as they disagree among themselves. Perhaps you avoid considering the so-called relationship between God the Father and God the Son as it would produce doubt, anxiety and confusion. I also doubt if many Trinitarians really know what they really believe. Take the phrase "the only begotten of the Father" in the following:

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now few, if any, Trintarians accept what is obvious, that this phrase refers to the conception/begettal/birth narrative of Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 as is simply and clearly also depicted here in John 1:14. Some Trinitarians accept "only begotten" but claim that God the Son is somehow eternally begotten, or begotten from eternity, a contradiction and an impossibility.

Other Trinitarians get around this impossible and contradictory explanation by altering the translation:
John 1:14 (NIV84): The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Furthermore, how can Jesus say in Rev. 3:20 "I will come into him and sup with him" unless He is God who is omnipresent? Notice He doesn't say "God will come into him," but rather "I will come into him." If Jesus were really your lesser Jesus, he would be lying then.

Jesus is not "lesser", he has been highly exalted:
Philippians 2:9–11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You quote from Revelation 3:20 but seem to ignore the next verse which reveals the exalted human Jesus:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jesus is not seated in a Trinity Throne. He is seated at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in God the Father's Throne. This is based on the prophecy of Psalm 110:1.

ut at this point I'm not interested in an endless debate, so I'll let you go your way

Yes.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

I appreciate your long responses, but I will retain my understanding of John 1 and Philippians 2.

Of course. My points are perhaps too difficult to address or it could be too difficult to admit that there is something to what I am saying. It would take time and effort to address each point, pointing out any flaws, and offer alternative understandings that makes sense of the text. That takes a lot of work, but anyone who values truth would take the time, as I have done. Only those who want to be right in their own opinions just leave things unaddressed.

I find no evidence of God the Son in the OT, but the teaching is that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

But that is to fallaciously beg the question by presuming that Yahweh is only the Father.

The following also speak of the education, character and status of the human Jesus:
Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Isaiah 50:4–9 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

Yes, these apply to the human nature of Jesus, which is precisely what we should expect if God became human and so limited himself in some way.

I consider that this is similar to John the Baptist's statement, and also that this should be translated as "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28.

But why? If you're going to go with a different understanding, rather than the plain and obvious one, you need to provide legitimate reasoning for doing so. This is all the more important since v. 24 could also be "I Am," which would mean that unless one believes Jesus is God incarnate, they will die in their sins. Of course, given the immediate context of verse 23, it could also mean that unless one believes he is "from above" and "not of this world," which implies deity, they will die in their sins.

Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am [he] you will die in your sins.”
...
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

Problematic for your understanding of John 8:58 (and v. 24) is, firstly, that Jesus claimed to be "from above" and "not of this world." Second, it is very evident that Jesus is comparing the temporary existence of Abraham in time, with his own timeless existence. Third, to say "before Abraham was, I am he," makes absolutely no sense grammatically, even if we take it to mean that he existed before Abraham. We then have Jesus making a nonsensical claim.

Part of the impossibilities and contradiction of the Trinity concept.

You claim that to be the case, but how is anything I stated an impossibility or contradiction of the Trinity?

I noticed that you omitted the full statement of Philippians 2:11 which clearly speaks against the Trinity:
Philippians 2:9–11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

How, exactly, does that speak against the Trinity? The purpose of the Son is to bring glory to the Father. How does that contradict the Trinity? (Don't ignore the previous context of verses 6-8.)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

It would take time and effort to address each point, pointing out any flaws, and offer alternative understandings that makes sense of the text. That takes a lot of work, but anyone who values truth would take the time, as I have done. Only those who want to be right in their own opinions just leave things unaddressed.

Possibly it is more time constraints and interest. I do have satisfactory answers to some so-called "Trinitarian" verses, but some I prefer to leave. I am just settling down to a nice cup of afternoon tea, and about to start listening to a talk on the Third Servant Song, one of my favourite subjects and this is expounded by one of my favourite speakers, so my response on a few of your items will be initially brief.

But that is to fallaciously beg the question by presuming that Yahweh is only the Father.

Yes, Yahweh is the One God, God the Father.

Yes, these apply to the human nature of Jesus, which is precisely what we should expect if God became human and so limited himself in some way.

I consider such a concept as fanciful.

This is all the more important since v. 24 could also be "I Am

Jesus is not claiming to be Deity in John 8:28 where the KJV translators translated the same words as "I am he".

Second, it is very evident that Jesus is comparing the temporary existence of Abraham in time, with his own timeless existence.

Jesus appears in the plan and purpose of God well before Abraham's time, in Genesis 3:15.

You claim that to be the case, but how is anything I stated an impossibility or contradiction of the Trinity?

When was Jesus begotten as per John 1:14, "the only begotten of the Father"?

The purpose of the Son is to bring glory to the Father.

Which proves he is not part of the Trinity. Finished my cup of tea, starting the Third Servant Song.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Greetings again Free,

Possibly it is more time constraints and interest. I do have satisfactory answers to some so-called "Trinitarian" verses, but some I prefer to leave. I am just settling down to a nice cup of afternoon tea, and about to start listening to a talk on the Third Servant Song, one of my favourite subjects and this is expounded by one of my favourite speakers, so my response on a few of your items will be initially brief.

Yes, Yahweh is the One God, God the Father.

I consider such a concept as fanciful.

Jesus is not claiming to be Deity in John 8:28 where the KJV translators translated the same words as "I am he".

Jesus appears in the plan and purpose of God well before Abraham's time, in Genesis 3:15.

When was Jesus begotten as per John 1:14, "the only begotten of the Father"?

Which proves he is not part of the Trinity. Finished my cup of tea, starting the Third Servant Song.

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings to you, Trevor,
I am new to this platform, but I am not new to the Trinity Debate. In full disclosure I would like to inform you that I an an Eastern Orthodox Christian convert from Evangelical Christianity. I was raised in the Protestant Churches and as a small child of six, I met the Lord and said the sinner's prayer in Church one day when the preacher at my mother's Church gave the altar call. I remember that day very well. I remember the experience. I remember that I met a PERSON that day. I did not meet a plan, or a purpose of God the Father. As I grew up I studied the Holy Scriptures and also had a time of rebellion against the Lord in the form of delving into Paganism. My cousin, whom I love and still am in contact with, was a pagan and, for a time, I was influenced by him and fell from Grace, but the Lord wooed me back in my early twenties. At that point, I began to study theology and apologetics in earnest and this led me to the history of the Church. I studied that for quite some time and this finally led me to being Baptized into the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate at the age of 40.
So, building on this, I suppose that my first question to you would be:
Whom did I meet when I was six? The Father? The Son? Or the Holy Spirit?
Next, Who wooed me back to the Lord after my rebellion in my youth? A force? A purpose? Or a PERSON?
I found your comment that you find the Son of God coming down from heaven to be "fanciful". This I do not understand. I have found it often, with Christians who do not believe in the Holy Trinity, that they strip the Church of her Mysticism; and by this I mean her spirituality...her MYSTICAL quality. It is as though you are a secular Christian who does not believe in the supernatural.
Don't you believe that the Lord SPOKE and created the Cosmos? Is that not what the Word of God states? Isn't that "fanciful"; yet it is a core Christian belief.
You ask about when Jesus was begotten. John 1:14 cannot be referencing His physical birth, my friend, simply because to say that the Father begot the Lord Jesus through Mary is to commit high blasphemy, claiming that the Father had sexual relations with the Most Blessed and Holy Theotokos.
I would like to point out here that I have seen you claim that this or that passage "should be translated" as such and such. Who are you to make such a claim? You also make claims such as that you do not see this or that in this or that Scripture. But, again, who are you to say such a thing? Are you the arbiter of Scriptural truth? And if you claim that for yourself, how are you different than the Pope, who claims that when he speaks from Peter's Throne, he speaks Ex-Cathedra (ie. infallibly)? And if you claim the power to interpret Scripture with such infallibility, why can't I? And if our interpretations differ, how are we or the Church at large to know who is right and who is wrong? The Church then becomes to no effect the same as the Scriptures because then, the Scriptures say whatever anyone who reads them says that they say. Is this not so? Do you not recognize the Holy Scriptures as truth for ALL Christians? If they are the truth for all Christians and you interpret them infallibly and if my interpretation differs from yours and is therefore false, doesn't that make you the Voice of God on earth?
Now, lastly, I would point out to you that while Yahweh is the One God; Yahweh is THE LORD; and....there is BUT ONE LORD.
Do you not say this is true? Only One Lord? And yet, in Holy Scripture, both Old and New, there are THREE Who are Named "Lord". Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Christ is amongst us.
Now and ever and unto ages of ages, amen!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Dionysius the Aeropagite,

I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian

I appreciate your interaction. I will not respond by commentating on your experience or your denomination and the resultant set of beliefs. We both have our personal experiences and environment. I was brought up in my present fellowship, espousing the way of life in Christ by belief of the Gospel and water baptism at the age of 21. I am now 80 y.o. and hold the same faith more strongly than ever. I could highlight some of my experiences where I believe that God's hand was at work. But we, who are so different in many aspects, meet here and we both need to benefit from this experience.

So, building on this, I suppose that my first question to you would be:
Whom did I meet when I was six? The Father? The Son? Or the Holy Spirit?
Next, Who wooed me back to the Lord after my rebellion in my youth? A force? A purpose? Or a PERSON?

Here are two aspects of your experience, and I could mention many of my own, but one is recent. At the beginning of this year I fell sick, was admitted to hospital and needed an emergency risky operation, an operation that has only been successful in recent times, and unsuspectingly to them as part of the process I had to be resuscitated. Apart from the skill of the doctors, who was it that overall delivered me from death and answered my prayers and the prayers of my family and friends? I could echo your statement "Christ is amongst us."

I have found it often, with Christians who do not believe in the Holy Trinity, that they strip the Church of her Mysticism; and by this I mean her spirituality...her MYSTICAL quality. It is as though you are a secular Christian who does not believe in the supernatural.

I believe very much in the supernatural, but consider the conception/birth of Jesus to be explained in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 where the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father of Jesus, the Son of God, and Mary his mother.

Don't you believe that the Lord SPOKE and created the Cosmos? Is that not what the Word of God states? Isn't that "fanciful"; yet it is a core Christian belief.

I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father spoke and is the Creator of Heaven and Earth Psalm 8:1-3, and He is the Lord of heaven and earth as Jesus clearly states Matthew 11:25-30.
Psalm 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

You ask about when Jesus was begotten. John 1:14 cannot be referencing His physical birth, my friend, simply because to say that the Father begot the Lord Jesus through Mary is to commit high blasphemy, claiming that the Father had sexual relations with the Most Blessed and Holy Theotokos.

I did not in any way mention "sexual relations" and your charge of "blasphemy" is typical of those who deny what Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 actually states, that the conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit, and this is the basis of the teaching of John 1:14. God is the father of Jesus, and Mary his mother in the conception/birth process.

I would like to point out here that I have seen you claim that this or that passage "should be translated" as such and such. Who are you to make such a claim?

I was introduced to an exposition of The Yahweh Name when I was 19, over 60 years ago, at a Young People's Weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW Australia. The following thread gives some explanation of my understanding of this subject and a few of the authorities that I rely upon. There is also much documentation and exposition within my fellowship, but I have mentioned external scholars.

The Yahweh Name

The Yahweh Name Part 1 Initial Declaration and Fulfilment The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14-15. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ...

christianforums.net

And if you claim that for yourself, how are you different than the Pope, who claims that when he speaks from Peter's Throne, he speaks Ex-Cathedra (ie. infallibly)? And if you claim the power to interpret Scripture with such infallibility, why can't I? And if our interpretations differ, how are we or the Church at large to know who is right and who is wrong? The Church then becomes to no effect the same as the Scriptures because then, the Scriptures say whatever anyone who reads them says that they say. Is this not so? Do you not recognize the Holy Scriptures as truth for ALL Christians? If they are the truth for all Christians and you interpret them infallibly and if my interpretation differs from yours and is therefore false, doesn't that make you the Voice of God on earth?

Very faulty statement and logic. We need to examine carefully what God in his kindness has given us, and compare translations on many verses and carefully consider the full meaning of every verse. The Word of God is the Voice of God. What translation do you normally use? In my thread "The Yahweh Name" I have quoted Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:14 and also referred to the margins of the RV and RSV. Are these the Voice of God?

Now, lastly, I would point out to you that while Yahweh is the One God; Yahweh is THE LORD; and....there is BUT ONE LORD.
Do you not say this is true? Only One Lord? And yet, in Holy Scripture, both Old and New, there are THREE Who are Named "Lord". Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I suggest that you need to have a closer look at this subject. The KJV reveals the difference between "LORD" shown in full capitals, translated from the Hebrew "Yahweh", "He will be" in Psalm 110:1 representing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, and David's Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, shown as "Lord" shown in part in lower case letters, translated from the Hebrew "Adon", "Lord, Ruler, Master".
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Greetings Dionysius the Aeropagite,

I appreciate your interaction. I will not respond by commentating on your experience or your denomination and the resultant set of beliefs. We both have our personal experiences and environment. I was brought up in my present fellowship, espousing the way of life in Christ by belief of the Gospel and water baptism at the age of 21. I am now 80 y.o. and hold the same faith more strongly than ever. I could highlight some of my experiences where I believe that God's hand was at work. But we, who are so different in many aspects, meet here and we both need to benefit from this experience.

Here are two aspects of your experience, and I could mention many of my own, but one is recent. At the beginning of this year I fell sick, was admitted to hospital and needed an emergency risky operation, an operation that has only been successful in recent times, and unsuspectingly to them as part of the process I had to be resuscitated. Apart from the skill of the doctors, who was it that overall delivered me from death and answered my prayers and the prayers of my family and friends? I could echo your statement "Christ is amongst us."

I believe very much in the supernatural, but consider the conception/birth of Jesus to be explained in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 where the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father of Jesus, the Son of God, and Mary his mother.

I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father spoke and is the Creator of Heaven and Earth Psalm 8:1-3, and He is the Lord of heaven and earth as Jesus clearly states Matthew 11:25-30.
Psalm 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


I did not in any way mention "sexual relations" and your charge of "blasphemy" is typical of those who deny what Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 actually states, that the conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit, and this is the basis of the teaching of John 1:14. God is the father of Jesus, and Mary his mother in the conception/birth process.

I was introduced to an exposition of The Yahweh Name when I was 19, over 60 years ago, at a Young People's Weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW Australia. The following thread gives some explanation of my understanding of this subject and a few of the authorities that I rely upon. There is also much documentation and exposition within my fellowship, but I have mentioned external scholars.

The Yahweh Name

The Yahweh Name Part 1 Initial Declaration and Fulfilment The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14-15. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ...

christianforums.net

Very faulty statement and logic. We need to examine carefully what God in his kindness has given us, and compare translations on many verses and carefully consider the full meaning of every verse. The Word of God is the Voice of God. What translation do you normally use? In my thread "The Yahweh Name" I have quoted Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:14 and also referred to the margins of the RV and RSV. Are these the Voice of God?

I suggest that you need to have a closer look at this subject. The KJV reveals the difference between "LORD" shown in full capitals, translated from the Hebrew "Yahweh", "He will be" in Psalm 110:1 representing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, and David's Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, shown as "Lord" shown in part in lower case letters, translated from the Hebrew "Adon", "Lord, Ruler, Master".
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings Trevor,
My full answer to your post must wait until after work today as there is much to say and quote from Scripture. I wanted to say that I am not accusing you of blasphemy. I was saying that the ramifications of your assertion are blasphemous. I will explain myself further tonight.
As for the Tetragrammaton in the OT, in several places it is applied to the Messiah. I shall show you this tonight. I also leave you with this thought. The ancient fathers of the Church were encyclopedic in their knowledge of the Old Testament. This us because, for the Apostles and their immediate successors, the OT Scriptures were their proof of the Gospel, especially in regards to the Identity of Jesus. For example, Justin Martyr solely used the OT in proving the Gospel and in proving that Jesus is God in the Flesh to the Jew Trypho, in "Dialogue with Trypho". Like I said, I will expound tonight.
Christ is amongst us. Now and ever and unto ages of ages, amen!

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Greetings Dionysius the Aeropagite,

I appreciate your interaction. I will not respond by commentating on your experience or your denomination and the resultant set of beliefs. We both have our personal experiences and environment. I was brought up in my present fellowship, espousing the way of life in Christ by belief of the Gospel and water baptism at the age of 21. I am now 80 y.o. and hold the same faith more strongly than ever. I could highlight some of my experiences where I believe that God's hand was at work. But we, who are so different in many aspects, meet here and we both need to benefit from this experience.

Here are two aspects of your experience, and I could mention many of my own, but one is recent. At the beginning of this year I fell sick, was admitted to hospital and needed an emergency risky operation, an operation that has only been successful in recent times, and unsuspectingly to them as part of the process I had to be resuscitated. Apart from the skill of the doctors, who was it that overall delivered me from death and answered my prayers and the prayers of my family and friends? I could echo your statement "Christ is amongst us."

I believe very much in the supernatural, but consider the conception/birth of Jesus to be explained in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 where the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father of Jesus, the Son of God, and Mary his mother.

I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father spoke and is the Creator of Heaven and Earth Psalm 8:1-3, and He is the Lord of heaven and earth as Jesus clearly states Matthew 11:25-30.
Psalm 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


I did not in any way mention "sexual relations" and your charge of "blasphemy" is typical of those who deny what Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 actually states, that the conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit, and this is the basis of the teaching of John 1:14. God is the father of Jesus, and Mary his mother in the conception/birth process.

I was introduced to an exposition of The Yahweh Name when I was 19, over 60 years ago, at a Young People's Weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW Australia. The following thread gives some explanation of my understanding of this subject and a few of the authorities that I rely upon. There is also much documentation and exposition within my fellowship, but I have mentioned external scholars.

The Yahweh Name

The Yahweh Name Part 1 Initial Declaration and Fulfilment The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14-15. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ...

christianforums.net

Very faulty statement and logic. We need to examine carefully what God in his kindness has given us, and compare translations on many verses and carefully consider the full meaning of every verse. The Word of God is the Voice of God. What translation do you normally use? In my thread "The Yahweh Name" I have quoted Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:14 and also referred to the margins of the RV and RSV. Are these the Voice of God?

I suggest that you need to have a closer look at this subject. The KJV reveals the difference between "LORD" shown in full capitals, translated from the Hebrew "Yahweh", "He will be" in Psalm 110:1 representing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, and David's Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, shown as "Lord" shown in part in lower case letters, translated from the Hebrew "Adon", "Lord, Ruler, Master".
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor, I will try to answer as much as possible tonight. My schedule is 15 hour days, Monday through Thursday. Not much time on those days to answer in length. But, here goes.

You had stated:
I could echo your statement "Christ is amongst us."

My response:
That is fine, but what I am looking for is an answer as to HOW Christ is amongst us. I understand it from my own perspective; but how do YOU explain it? Jesus quite clearly said that wherever two or more are gathered in His Name, there He is in the midst of them. Yet, Jesus is in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father in His Glorified Resurrected Body; so how is in between you and I? How did I meet Jesus at the altar call when I was six?

You had stated:
I believe very much in the supernatural, but consider the conception/birth of Jesus to be explained in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 where the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father of Jesus, the Son of God, and Mary his mother.

My response:
Trevor, The Holy Spirit did not conceive Jesus WITH Mary. He simply performed a miracle that made her conceive OF HER OWN SEED ALONE. This was the promise to Eve. That the Savior would come through HER SEED. The Father did NOT conceive Christ with Mary. He did NOT pro-create with Mary. Jesus as the WORD OF GOD is BEGOTTEN of the Father ALONE throughout eternity. To BEGET os to procreate according to ONE'S KIND. Humans beget humans. Dogs beget dogs. Horses beget horses. God BEGETS GOD.
When the Father Spoke, He Begot The Word, Who is Jesus Christ.

So now comes the Old Testament. I do not have the time for an exhaustive list of Scripture. So I provide three to discuss. In all three sets of Scripture below..TWO are named "Lord" (ie...YHVH).

Genesis 19:24
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

Zechariah 2: 10-12
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord.

11 And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

12 And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.

Isaiah 48: 12-17
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dionysius the Aeropagite,

I appreciate your time and effort. I would like to answer a few things from your earlier post.

I wanted to say that I am not accusing you of blasphemy. I was saying that the ramifications of your assertion are blasphemous.

I reject your claim. What I stated is what I believe.

As for the Tetragrammaton in the OT, in several places it is applied to the Messiah.

Yes, but these occurrences do not prove the Trinity.

The ancient fathers of the Church were encyclopedic in their knowledge of the Old Testament. This us because, for the Apostles and their immediate successors, the OT Scriptures were their proof of the Gospel, especially in regards to the Identity of Jesus. For example, Justin Martyr solely used the OT in proving the Gospel and in proving that Jesus is God in the Flesh to the Jew Trypho, in "Dialogue with Trypho".

I consider that the "Early Church Fathers" and their many wrong ideas were part of the development of the Apostasy that led to the Catholic Church. I respect those in any era that correctly expound the Scriptures, and even try to use my discernment whether to accept some aspects of what these expositors state.

Christ is amongst us. Now and ever and unto ages of ages, amen!

Yes.

That is fine, but what I am looking for is an answer as to HOW Christ is amongst us. I understand it from my own perspective; but how do YOU explain it? Jesus quite clearly said that wherever two or more are gathered in His Name, there He is in the midst of them. Yet, Jesus is in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father in His Glorified Resurrected Body; so how is in between you and I? How did I meet Jesus at the altar call when I was six?

I gave you one example of the providential care by Jesus in my recent sickness. Perhaps this is a bit presumptuous, as a few of my friends died at about my age, despite many prayers concerning their failing health. I am not willing to confirm or deny your "experience". God appeared to King Saul at a certain part of his early career.

The Holy Spirit did not conceive Jesus WITH Mary. He simply performed a miracle that made her conceive OF HER OWN SEED ALONE. This was the promise to Eve. That the Savior would come through HER SEED. The Father did NOT conceive Christ with Mary. He did NOT pro-create with Mary.

I consider that God the Father is the father of Jesus and Mary the mother in the conception/birth process and as such Jesus is a human, the Son of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Jesus as the WORD OF GOD is BEGOTTEN of the Father ALONE throughout eternity.

I consider that "only begotten of the Father" in John 1:14 is speaking about what occurred in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. Only begotten throughout eternity is an impossibility and contradiction. Which ECF first suggested such an impossibility?

To BEGET os to procreate according to ONE'S KIND. Humans beget humans. Dogs beget dogs. Horses beget horses. God BEGETS GOD.
When the Father Spoke, He Begot The Word, Who is Jesus Christ.

I reject your definition. God the Father did not create or beget another God, Jesus.

So now comes the Old Testament. I do not have the time for an exhaustive list of Scripture. So I provide three to discuss. In all three sets of Scripture below..TWO are named "Lord" (ie...YHVH).
Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

There were three "men" or angels that visited Abraham. One of these represented Yahweh and bears His Name.
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Zechariah 2: 10-12: 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. 11 And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
12 And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.

Yes, the One God, Yahweh, God the Father will dwell in the midst of Israel during the 1000 year Kingdom in and through the True Tabernacle, the True House of God, Jesus the Son of God when Jesus sits and reigns on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 48: 12-17

Similar, Yahweh and Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[hawkman]

That the Savior would come through HER SEED.

Yes , exactly right . It had to be .


15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Holy Spirit did not conceive Jesus WITH Mary. He simply performed a miracle that made her conceive OF HER OWN SEED ALONE. This was the promise to Eve. That the Savior would come through HER SEED. The Father did NOT conceive Christ with Mary. He did NOT pro-create with Mary.

We do not know the nuts and bolts of what did happen exactly with Mary , God did not need us to know . So what did we get , from the bible in Luke Chapter 1 .

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

That is all we get on what is going to happen ," The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee" anything else is speculation on our part .

We are not given a detailed description of the conception taking place , but we know when it takes place between verses 38 and 39 in Luke Chapter 1 .

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Greetings again Dionysius the Aeropagite,

I appreciate your time and effort. I would like to answer a few things from your earlier post.

I reject your claim. What I stated is what I believe.

Yes, but these occurrences do not prove the Trinity.

I consider that the "Early Church Fathers" and their many wrong ideas were part of the development of the Apostasy that led to the Catholic Church. I respect those in any era that correctly expound the Scriptures, and even try to use my discernment whether to accept some aspects of what these expositors state.

Yes.

I gave you one example of the providential care by Jesus in my recent sickness. Perhaps this is a bit presumptuous, as a few of my friends died at about my age, despite many prayers concerning their failing health. I am not willing to confirm or deny your "experience". God appeared to King Saul at a certain part of his early career.

I consider that God the Father is the father of Jesus and Mary the mother in the conception/birth process and as such Jesus is a human, the Son of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

I consider that "only begotten of the Father" in John 1:14 is speaking about what occurred in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. Only begotten throughout eternity is an impossibility and contradiction. Which ECF first suggested such an impossibility?

I reject your definition. God the Father did not create or beget another God, Jesus.

There were three "men" or angels that visited Abraham. One of these represented Yahweh and bears His Name.
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Yes, the One God, Yahweh, God the Father will dwell in the midst of Israel during the 1000 year Kingdom in and through the True Tabernacle, the True House of God, Jesus the Son of God when Jesus sits and reigns on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Similar, Yahweh and Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

You stated:

I consider that God the Father is the father of Jesus and Mary the mother in the conception/birth process and as such Jesus is a human, the Son of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

I consider that "only begotten of the Father" in John 1:14 is speaking about what occurred in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. Only begotten throughout eternity is an impossibility and contradiction. Which ECF first suggested such an impossibility?

My response:
I realize that you reject my charge of blasphemy. I double down on it. I also reiterate that I am calling the DOCTRINE blasphemous, and not you. I am.not being personal. The doctrine you are teaching is nothing short of paganism. The same as saying Zeus fathered Perseus and Hercules. The Father did NOT ""father" Jesus with Mary.
And the word "beget" means a certain thing despite your denials. It is a term of procreation. Again, it is blasphemy to say that the Father procreated with Mary. Very terrible blasphemy.
You can reject the definition of "beget" all you like but you are not the definer of words.

You stated:
Yes, but these occurrences do not prove the Trinity.

I consider that the "Early Church Fathers" and their many wrong ideas were part of the development of the Apostasy that led to the Catholic Church. I respect those in any era that correctly expound the Scriptures, and even try to use my discernment whether to accept some aspects of what these expositors state.

My response:
They do not prove the Trinity because you say so? Sorry, but I reject YOUR bid for Papal infallibility. The Church Fathers were wrong but YOU are right? Again, sorry but I reject your assertion that your understanding of Scripture is superior to anyone else's which disagrees with yours. You are not the Head of the Church. You are not the arbiter of truth.

You stated:

I gave you one example of the providential care by Jesus in my recent sickness. Perhaps this is a bit presumptuous, as a few of my friends died at about my age, despite many prayers concerning their failing health. I am not willing to confirm or deny your "experience". God appeared to King Saul at a certain part of his early career.

My response:
This above does not answer my question.
Again, how is Jesus in the midst of us? How is He Present between us?
I will have to get to the OT later.
May Christ bless you.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Greetings again Dionysius the Aeropagite,

I appreciate your time and effort. I would like to answer a few things from your earlier post.

I reject your claim. What I stated is what I believe.

Yes, but these occurrences do not prove the Trinity.

I consider that the "Early Church Fathers" and their many wrong ideas were part of the development of the Apostasy that led to the Catholic Church. I respect those in any era that correctly expound the Scriptures, and even try to use my discernment whether to accept some aspects of what these expositors state.

Yes.

I gave you one example of the providential care by Jesus in my recent sickness. Perhaps this is a bit presumptuous, as a few of my friends died at about my age, despite many prayers concerning their failing health. I am not willing to confirm or deny your "experience". God appeared to King Saul at a certain part of his early career.

I consider that God the Father is the father of Jesus and Mary the mother in the conception/birth process and as such Jesus is a human, the Son of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

I consider that "only begotten of the Father" in John 1:14 is speaking about what occurred in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. Only begotten throughout eternity is an impossibility and contradiction. Which ECF first suggested such an impossibility?

I reject your definition. God the Father did not create or beget another God, Jesus.

There were three "men" or angels that visited Abraham. One of these represented Yahweh and bears His Name.
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Yes, the One God, Yahweh, God the Father will dwell in the midst of Israel during the 1000 year Kingdom in and through the True Tabernacle, the True House of God, Jesus the Son of God when Jesus sits and reigns on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Similar, Yahweh and Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

Forgot to ask. Why is "eternally begotten" of the Father impossible?
I will answer you about the ancient fathers tonight.
I hope your day goes well. I have to prepare of Hurricane Milton.