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Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

wondering said:
Which is where you learned about this Oneness.
Click to expand...


It Is?

I thought I learned Oneness from a Pentecostal Pastor who was raised by A Pentecostal father, and was in that movement for 30 years.

I gave you an online definition, so you would have a general, verifiable idea of what they believe, and how it differs from the Trinity folks.


JLB
 
JLB said:
Please answer this question for me, as I have tried to answer your questions.


If I took three separate glasses of pure water, and poured all three into a glass pitcher, would it be a pitcher of three waters, or a pitcher of water?

Is water a plural word or a singular word?

JLB
Click to expand...

It would be a pitcher of water.
Water is a singular word.

Is this oneness or trinity?

I used to use water to explain the Trinity.
Water is one, singular element. It's one thing.
But it could be
a liquid
a solid
a gas
But it's still water, but in different forms.

Is this oneness or trinity?

So, like you want to call Jesus Yahweh, would it be right to call
ice, water?
vapor, water?
No. Because even though they ARE water, if I said put "water" in my glass instead of saying put "ice" in my glass, I'd get more water instead of ice. No?

So of course Jesus is Yahweh and Yahweh is Jesus, but we have to distinguish which person of God is being spoken of.

Wondering
 
JLB said:
It Is?

I thought I learned Oneness from a Pentecostal Pastor who was raised by A Pentecostal father, and was in that movement for 30 years.

I gave you an online definition, so you would have a general, verifiable idea of what they believe, and how it differs from the Trinity folks.


JLB
Click to expand...
I apologize. You did speak of online stuff.
Please give me YOUR understanding. Like I said, I hate learning religion online!

I reread your definition in 378 just before and, I don't know. I think that as long as you believe Jesus is God, however you can understand that, it's okay. This is new to me, I am sorry and thank you for explaining. Maybe if I read it enough times, I'll get the difference. Please reply re the water questions you had.

W
 
wondering said:
This refers to our savior as being Jesus, the great God and Saviior.
Click to expand...

Ok.

Why did you capitalize Savior, in one place, but not the other?

Could you clarify this?


I agree that Jesus is our great God and Savior.


JLB
 
wondering said:
It would be a pitcher of water.
Water is a singular word.
Click to expand...


Water is H2O, and is made up of many of these elements of such.

Water is plural, unless you believe that you can drink just one H2O particle


JLB.
 
JLB said:
Ok.

Why did you capitalize Savior, in one place, but not the other?

Could you clarify this?


I agree that Jesus is our great God and Savior.


JLB
Click to expand...
I used to get paid well for typing.
I don't anymore!

Our God and Savior.

W
 
JLB said:
Water is H2O, and is made up of many of these elements of such.

Water is plural, unless you believe that you can drink just one H2O particle


JLB.
Click to expand...
JLB
When you're drinking water do you feel like you're drinking one thing - water; or a bunch of atoms?
Okay. Water is plural. You didn't answer to my replies and you're the one asking the questions!

So what did my replies mean to you??

W
 
Jim Parker said:
Here's a good explanation. (Better than I could do)
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-is-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity
Click to expand...
Looked thru the article quick.
It's very good.
I had posted the job or role of each person but cannot remember the page. Although this was helpful in understanding how each one had a role (when I taught it to kids) , it also made it seem like 3 different gods. It's just not easy and this is why I say that we should keep to the Trinity since it IS a fundamental belief to Christianity. Any alteration creates problems.

W
 
wondering said:
Looked thru the article quick.
It's very good.
I had posted the job or role of each person but cannot remember the page. Although this was helpful in understanding how each one had a role (when I taught it to kids) , it also made it seem like 3 different gods. It's just not easy and this is why I say that we should keep to the Trinity since it IS a fundamental belief to Christianity. Any alteration creates problems.
W
Click to expand...
The major problem is that we are trying to describe in technical detail that which cannot be described in technical detail by man: God.

Here's a bit from https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity/the-three-divine-persons

"The saints of the Church have explained this tri-unity of God by using such an example from worldly existence. We see three men. “What are they?” we ask. “They are human beings,” we answer. Each is man, possessing the same humanity and the same human nature defined in a certain way: created, temporal, physical, rational, etc. In what they are, the three men are one. But in who they are, they are three, each absolutely unique and distinct from the others. Each man in his own unique way is distinctly a man. One man is not the other, though each man is still human with one and the same human nature and form.


Turning to God, we may ask in the same way: “What is it?” In reply we say that it is God defined as absolute perfection: “ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever-existing, and eternally the same.” We then ask, “Who is it?”, and we answer that it is the Trinity : Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In who God is, there are three persons who are each absolutely unique and distinct. Each is not the other, though each is still divine with the same divine nature and form. Therefore, while being one in what they are; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are Three in who they are. And because of what and who they are—namely, uncreated, divine persons—they are undivided and perfectly united in their timeless, spaceless, sizeless, shapeless super-essential existence, as well as in their one divine life, knowledge, love, goodness, power, will, action, etc. "

That may help.

iakov the fool
 
Jim Parker said:
The major problem is that we are trying to describe in technical detail that which cannot be described in technical detail by man: God.

Here's a bit from https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity/the-three-divine-persons

"The saints of the Church have explained this tri-unity of God by using such an example from worldly existence. We see three men. “What are they?” we ask. “They are human beings,” we answer. Each is man, possessing the same humanity and the same human nature defined in a certain way: created, temporal, physical, rational, etc. In what they are, the three men are one. But in who they are, they are three, each absolutely unique and distinct from the others. Each man in his own unique way is distinctly a man. One man is not the other, though each man is still human with one and the same human nature and form.


Turning to God, we may ask in the same way: “What is it?” In reply we say that it is God defined as absolute perfection: “ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever-existing, and eternally the same.” We then ask, “Who is it?”, and we answer that it is the Trinity : Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In who God is, there are three persons who are each absolutely unique and distinct. Each is not the other, though each is still divine with the same divine nature and form. Therefore, while being one in what they are; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are Three in who they are. And because of what and who they are—namely, uncreated, divine persons—they are undivided and perfectly united in their timeless, spaceless, sizeless, shapeless super-essential existence, as well as in their one divine life, knowledge, love, goodness, power, will, action, etc. "

That may help.

iakov the fool
Click to expand...
Very good.
You explained The Nature of God and The Persons of God perfectly.

Yes. How to explain God with our finite brain?
It can't be done.
Just accept.

Wondering
 
jocor said:
How is it, then, that the Lamb (Yeshua) takes the scroll out of the hand of the Creator, "him that sat upon the throne"? (Rev 4:10-11; 5:7)?
Click to expand...
Jesus, God the Word incarnate, is also the creator.
Jhn 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus is also the Lamb. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.(Jhn 1:29)

The Lamb, our creator, is also our savior.
Act 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Hope that answers your question.

iakov the fool
 
Last edited:
Jim Parker said:
Jesus, God the Word incarnate, is also the creator.
Jhn 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus is also the Lamb. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.(Jhn 1:29)

The Lamb, our creator, is also our savior.
Act 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Hope that answers your question.

iakov the fool
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Are you saying there are two Creators, God the Father and "God the Word"?
 
JLB said:
Ok, here is another one.

[you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me... 2 Corinthians 13:3]

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

The Spirit of Christ, is the same Spirit that spoke through the mouth of the old testament prophets as YHWH, the Lord God.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

Example of the Spirit of Christ speaking through an old testament prophet, as YHWH the Lord God of Israel:

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10


JLB
Click to expand...
As was already brought up the Father promise "In the last days I will you out My Spirit" was sent in Jesus's name. That one and same Holy Spirit is in us at the will of Christ Jesus and represents the presence or will of Christ Jesus in a believer. Its still the One and Same Holy Spirit. Just as that same Spirit represents the presence or will of the Father in Jesus. I also would state "Christ in me"

Jesus=>And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
Acts 2 also states the Spirit Jesus sent (and He was in heaven at that time) Jesus received from the Father.

Jesus doesn't state (as the Father does) I will give you my spirit.

Jesus on the cross "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"

There is only One true God "The Father per Jesus" and the Holy Spirit or Spirit of truth or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is the Fathers very own Spirit. Jesus is Gods firstborn. Thats written. He has always been the Fathers Son. The Father then was pleased to have HIS fullness dwell IN His Firstborn. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" So while Jesus has His own spirit He is not alone. All the fullness of God dwells in Him. He is God in that context. (All that the Father is)

How does Jesus communicate with His own? He would will and the Holy Spirit would speak what He hears. Jesus has that authority and has been granted by the Father to have life in Himself. The miracles were performed by the Holy Spirit at the will of Jesus as again God gave Him anything Jesus asked for.

The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears. Who then stated below? I would state Jesus as He is the head of the body of Christ and Gods anointed ruler of Gods creation. Only the Father is greater.
"While they were serving the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

This changes the atonement outlook. Jesus being firstborn.
Now then the Son (Not God) then purchased us by His blood. The Son of His own free will offered Himself up on the cross submitting to Gods will. Thats different then God gave Himself to Himself for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is then found worthy by God of honor and power and glory forever.
 
Jim Parker said:
Jesus, God the Word incarnate, is also the creator.
Jhn 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus is also the Lamb. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.(Jhn 1:29)

The Lamb, our creator, is also our savior.
Act 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Hope that answers your question.

iakov the fool
Click to expand...
Jesus is the word of the FATHER. (God)

Jesus=>Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Hebrews
Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a/the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains[b] all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Randy
 
Randy said:
Thats different then God gave Himself to Himself for the forgiveness of sins.
Click to expand...

God gave Himself, to Himself...? I don't quite know what you mean by this.


jocor said:
How is it, then, that the Lamb (Yeshua) takes the scroll out of the hand of the Creator, "him that sat upon the throne"? (Rev 4:10-11; 5:7)?
Click to expand...

First of all, God [the Son] became flesh, which being is, "a little lower than the angels". But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2:9


8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


The Man Jesus Christ, is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, who takes the scroll from God the Father.

Elohim, created all things, not just the Father. The Lord God, YHWH Elohim, which is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit created all things.

as it is written -

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

The Lord God, YHWH Elohim, is the Father, the Word, and The Holy Spirit, as these three are One.


JLB
 
wondering said:
JLB

You never answered my post no. 382.
So then why ask questions of posters?

Wondering
Click to expand...


I answered it in post 385

Here it is again -

Water is H2O, and is made up of many of these elements of such.

Water is plural, unless you believe that you can drink just one H2O particle.




JLB.
 
wondering said:
JLB
When you're drinking water do you feel like you're drinking one thing - water; or a bunch of atoms?
Okay. Water is plural. You didn't answer to my replies and you're the one asking the questions!

So what did my replies mean to you??

W
Click to expand...


It seems like I'm drinking water, in reality I'm drinking many elements of H20.


JLB
 
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