Why are Calvinist concidered Christians, but JWs, and Mormons are not?

[watchman F]

I am in no way promoting JW, or mormonism. What I do not understand is why christianity calls them cults, yet accepts Calvinism, when Calvinism is every bit as unbiblical and much more dangerous, and evil?

 

[Mike]

Watchman, I'm sure you know I agree with your understanding that predestination is not consistent with the Gospel, but there's no comparing their doctrine to that of JW's and Mormons. For that matter I could ask "Why are non-Trinitarians considered Christians but not JW's and Mormons?" I would say my question is more valid, but both are unfair, IMO.

And it would be equally invalid for those who would ask the same of those who don't hold to predestination. I can think of a few here who would pose this question while actually trying to make a point.

I'm not sure I really need to expound on how much further JW's and Mormons get from the Christian faith than do Calvinists, do I?

 

[watchman F]

Watchman, I'm sure you know I agree with your understanding that predestination is not consistent with the Gospel, but there's no comparing their doctrine to that of JW's and Mormons. For that matter I could ask "Why are non-Trinitarians considered Christians but not JW's and Mormons?" I would say my question is more valid, but both are unfair, IMO.

And it would be equally invalid for those who would ask the same of those who don't hold to predestination. I can think of a few here who would pose this question while actually trying to make a point.

I'm not sure I really need to expound on how much further JW's and Mormons get from the Christian faith than do Calvinists, do I?

#1 Most non trinitarians are concidered non christians by trinitarians.

#2 You wouldn't even ask me that question if you didn't know I was Oneness.

#3 I believe in the deity of Christ, that He died for me sins, and that He rose again. Scripture nevers claim I must believe in the three headed Godhead.

#4 Although Mormonism, and JW have there own flaws that calvinism may not neither of those faith call God a liar, a rapist or murder as Calvinism does. For those that would say how do they do that I would answer
A. They call Him a liar because His word say He is no respector of person, yet they say He chooses some for Heaven and others for Hell.

B. They call Him a rapist because those He has chosen for Heaven He forces imself on them not given them any choice.

C. They call Him a murderer because those He has chosen for Hell He condemned without ever given them a chance for salvation decided their eternal fate before the foundation of the world created them only to condemn them.

#5 Yes you do need to tell me how JW, and Mormonism are in greater error than the monster Calvinism makes God out to be.

 

[Nick]

Watchman, this is an unfair question.

I'm not defending Calvinism, but I'm saying that for many of its points it does have a lot of scripture to back it up. JW's and Mormons have a lot of scripture to prove that they're wrong. Please note that I'm not saying there isn't evidence that would suggest that Calvinism is incorrect. I don't believe in all of its five points.

On a similar note as Mike, I could ask you, a non-Trinitarian why you are not considered a cult. Then you would probably say that's an unfair question. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

#1 Most non trinitarians are concidered non christians by trinitarians.

That's true. That doesn't mean that all trinitarians consider non-trinitarians not Christian. Remembering that the important thing is the deity of Jesus, I do believe that Trinitarianism is the view portrayed by the Bible.

#2 You wouldn't even ask me that question if you didn't know I was Oneness.

I'm sure Mike can answer this, but I"m going to say that of course! We're trying to make a point, just as you were.

#3 I believe in the deity of Christ, that He died for me sins, and that He rose again. Scripture nevers claim I must believe in the three headed Godhead.

I'm not going to ask for scripture on this, as I am not going into a debate over trinitarianism, but from what I have read the Bible portrays the Godhead as the concept of the Trinity. So it would be logical that we should believe in it.

#4 Although Mormonism, and JW have there own flaws that calvinism may not neither of those faith call God a liar, a rapist or murder as Calvinism does. For those that would say how do they do that I would answer
A. They call Him a liar because His word say He is no respector of person, yet they say He chooses some for Heaven and others for Hell.

Mormonism and JWs in my view are not Christians. Some deny the deity of Jesus or God, and they twist scripture beyond imagination. Often what they believe is in direct conflict to the basics of the Gospel, let alone other passages. They may not call God a liar, but they do not follow what is in His Word.

B. They call Him a rapist because those He has chosen for Heaven He forces imself on them not given them any choice.

I think you will find that Calvinists believe in the double predestination doctrine, which at first glance seems that He forces Himself on people. I do not think this is how mainstream Calvinsim is taught. It teaches that the chosen are drawn to God, and that yes, God does play an active part in their salvation if He wishes, but it does not mean that we don't choose God. It is a complicated doctrine, and I don't pretend to understand it nor explain it well.

C. They call Him a murderer because those He has chosen for Hell He condemned without ever given them a chance for salvation decided their eternal fate before the foundation of the world created them only to condemn them.

The majority of Cavlinists do teach double predestination, which does indeed say that God chooses some for damming into Hell. I don't believe that God does that to everyone, but I think it's clear He's hardened some people's hearts. Even though at this time I believe in single predestination (which excludes the damming part) I think there are some verses in the Bible which sugget that God does indeed harden people's hearts if He wishes.
Ultimately He is soverign and powerful and can do what He wants.

#5 Yes you do need to tell me how JW, and Mormonism are in greater error than the monster Calvinism makes God out to be.

Mormonism claims that God (the Father) had sex with Mary, and came to Earth. Plus they add the book of Mormon to the Bible, signifying that the Bible isn't enough.
JW's believe in the 144,000, and deny the Trinity.
I think we should be far more concerned about the souls and doctrines affiliated with JW and Mormonism than Calvinism.

 

[Pard]

I'm sure you have seen my view of the OSAS thing, which is what you are talking about. Now I say this so you know I honestly have no more attachment to Calvinism than I have to Arminianism, as my view of OSAS isn't compatible with either really.

To the point. Are you against all five points of Calvinism? Or are you against just that single point? You are aware that there is more to Calvinism than just the preservation of the saints, right?

You are also aware that Arminianism is just as flawed as its opposite, Calvinism, right? There are parts of Arminianism that are just as dangerous as the OSAS position of Calvinism.

Why is Arminianism considered Christian and JWs and Mormons are not?

 

[Mike]

#1 Most non trinitarians are concidered non christians by trinitarians.

#2 You wouldn't even ask me that question if you didn't know I was Oneness.

#3 I believe in the deity of Christ, that He died for me sins, and that He rose again. Scripture nevers claim I must believe in the three headed Godhead.

You're correct in your statement that I wouldn't have asked you if I didn't know you were Oneness, but I didn't include that to ridicule you. Watchman, when I think of Godly men who don't accept the Trinity, you are foremost in my mind. I admire your faith greatly, and I never question your name in the Book of Life. I just believe you are missing out on knowing God in His Fullness. My opinion.

No disrespect intended.

#4 Although Mormonism, and JW have there own flaws that calvinism may not neither of those faith call God a liar, a rapist or murder as Calvinism does. For those that would say how do they do that I would answer

Although Calvinism differs greatly about how I came to the point of believing, it doesn't change the fact that I believe. And it doesn't change the state of faith for anyone else, whether they believe or not. If someone doesn't believe, we would differ from Calvinists in determining why they don't believe, but it won't change the fact that they don't believe. And if they come to believe by free will (which we accept) or by predestination, we differ from them only on why they will. In then end, He will claim who He will claim, whether by His predetermination our by our acceptance of the salvation He offers to everyone.

#5 Yes you do need to tell me how JW, and Mormonism are in greater error than the monster Calvinism makes God out to be.

*sigh*
JW & M don't believe in the Divinity of Jesus - Calvinists do.
JW & M have their own books - Calvinists don't.
JW & M are cults devised by men who re-wrote or added testimonies to the Bible - Calvinists never did that. They use the same Inspired Word and come to different conclusions.
JW & M don't believe in salvation by faith - Calvinists do, but differ on how we came to faith.

Just a few points, but I see them as essential. I hope you realize now that I wasn't attacking you. I believe we have different beliefs that end up with the same core tenets of our faith. JW & M do not. We have enough division within the Christian Church without claiming that the others aren't Christian, IMO.

 

[Nick]

Just to clarify my position, I agree with what Mike said. I don't necessarily believe that non-Trinitarians are not Christians, however I do believe that they have not come to fully realise the structure of the Godhead. As I said before, the Divinity of the Father, Holy Spirit and Son is what matters first and foremost.

Like Pard, I would be interested to see what of the five points of Calvinism you believe in, watchman.

Peace,
Nick

 

[Mike]

On a similar note to Mike, I could ask you, a non-Trinitarian why you are not considered a cult. Then you would probably say that's an unfair question. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

Nick, the way you worded this, it looks like you're saying I'm not a Trinitarian. I know you know I am, but your wording might suggest to others that I'm not. And I never want my beliefs misunderstood.

 

[Pard]

Preservation of the saints relies on more than just a verse here or there. In fact they have just as convincing passages as the opponents to the view do. They have just as strong counters as well. Who is to say your view is the unChristian view?

If you honestly think Calvinism is on the same level as JWs and Mormons one of three things is happening here.

You have a deep founded hatred for Calvinists and you may not even know why it is there. I doubt this is the reason...

You have no clue about Calvinism beyond your view that it is "dangerous" (and at this you are only speaking of a single point of Calvinism). I think this may be the case, based on your original post.

You have no clue about JWs and Mormons beyond the fact that they have our Bible but are not considered Christian. This could also be the case, judging by your first post.

Now I am just saying this because I am floored that you would make such a statement. It seems rather ridiculous to say. I'd be far more agreeable if you had instead condemned the RCC but still, I am not in agreement

 

[Nick]

Nick, the way you worded this, it looks like you're saying I'm not a Trinitarian. I know you know I am, but your wording might suggest to others that I'm not. And I never want my beliefs misunderstood.

Oh...I see. Thanks for pointing that out. I've edited "to" out and replaced with "as".

 

[Ashua]

Aside from the whole rejection of Christ thing, how do you guys think the different sects of pre-Christian Judaism would fare in their judgment? I'm talking about the various sects of pharisee to sadducces and essenes and whatever other sects and variants of Judaism over the centuries and how do you suppose God would have judged them based on their contentions about various doctrines?

For instance, the sadducces believed in free will and the pharisees did more or less but the essenes did not.
At the same time, the sadducces rejected the notion of angels while the pharisees believed in them.
The sadducces also disbelieved in the idea of resurrection while the pharisees did believe.

Oddly enough the sadducces were literalists while the pharisees (and essenes) were more into the application of exegesis (well evidenced in the writings of Paul)

the essenes did not believe in the oral law. the pharisees held it in equality to the Law of Moses.
The essenes believed that the laws concerning the priesthood were only applicable to priests while pharisees extended the notion to everyone through exegesis based reasoning.

I can personally side with essenes on some issues and be completely for the pharisees in others. and yet be in favor of both views on other issues. Is it then prudent to find them both guilty of mal-theology whilst at times speaking according to the scriptures on other issues. Isn't one who is called a calvinist likely to be correct on one issue and wrong on another in relation to that of a baptist?

How did Christ work in his dealings with the various sects in which he found poor interpretation? in which he found sound theology?

In manner of reproof or exhortation.

"Therefore ye do greatly err" and "Thou hast said well."

I do not think that an honest misinterpretation of the scripture on "most" of these instances will be held against us to the extreme of condemnation. The doctrine of predestination and the inverse mean nothing in the end. If the calvinists are right it doesnt matter. Our knowledge or lack thereof would have no impact on the outcome. Vain contentions and strivings on this issue will profit no one if calvinists are right. If they are wrong, will that cause their damnation? Won't they still stand by faith? I think that if anything we should be careful when taking theological liberties, as in cases of obscurity or vagueness in presumption. The trinitarian concept which was brought up earlier is one such a case. Will anyone be damned if they keep theological silence in their verdicts? not teaching this "trinity" but not blaspheming it either? But if you preach the trinity with adamant vigor, then you had better be right, because presumption can manifest blasphemy. Likewise, if you are a unitarian, I dont suppose it wise to undermine those who believe in the trinity.

I say, don't go beyond what is written. Seriation -- relative terms. Refer to ideas about persons and concepts of scripture in terms that the scripture uses.

Who is Jesus? One will say he is the second person of the godhead. Another will say he was a prophet and wise teacher. Yet another will call him the fullness of God clothed in flesh.
As for me? I say only that he is the Messiah, the son of the living God. It was a favorable response when Peter uttered it, so it is good enough for me. He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last the beginning and the end: the Almighty; and a host of other titles that I am well aware of finding their origin sprinkled throughout the Tanahk hinting at his origin and identity.

Without targeting any one single issue, I think this is a good approach when dealing with the less well defined matters. And though I digressed, no sect of God's people at any time had it all right. To call one believer a cultist based on a variance of interpretation derived from the Holy scriptures is myopic. The reason witnesses and mormons are rightly tagged as cultists, is because their religions are bastard children of adulterous insemination-- that is, they mix the Holy scripture with their own added words. Joseph smiths writings and the watchtower writings; even as apostate judaism exalts the talmud. They are even as Samaritans or mules -- spiritual half breeds. A little leaven leaveneth an whole lump, perverting the Testimony of the prophets and the Gospel of Christ. (Smith declared that an Egyptian script was a book written by Abraham if I remember correctly. This was before the Egyptian language was deciphered by archaeologists... That script turned out to be the Egyptian "book of the dead". False prophet. What does Deuteronomy say about those? Thats enough on that.

 

[Theofilus]

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons both deny the deity of Christ. Jehovah's Witnesses see Him as just a man while Mormons believe He is the brother of Lucifer. Mormons also believe that God was once a man and that men (not women) can become gods.

These errors concern the very identity of God and Christ. That's why they are enough for these groups to be considerd non-Christians. The errors (as I see them) of Calvinism concern much less substantial and, admittedly, debatable doctrines and therefore they are considered Christians.

 

[Ashua]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the witnesses believe he is a lesser God. They believe Jehovah is the supreme God and Jesus is the "little God" or something like that.

But I say, if witnesses and mormons qualify as Christians, you might as well include muslims. You have to draw the line when they add in extra Gods or extrabiblical definitions of the eternal God as the mormons do, or the claus that says mormons will become gods in due time (The oldest lies in the book: "Ye shall be as gods" and "Ye shall surely not die.")

Or as the muslims do when they preach another Christ --one who is not at least the "Son of God" (I suspect this is in part due to misconception of what the meaning of "son of God" is in semantics) or when they deny he was crucified and raised from the dead --these are fundamental issues that cannot be compromised by interpretation. If you deny these, you are not Christian by the very definition.

 

[Theofilus]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the witnesses believe he is a lesser God. They believe Jehovah is the supreme God and Jesus is the "little God" or something like that.

I wasn't 100% sure on what I said about JW's above (although I am sure about the Mormons) so I looked it up after you said that. Here´s what I found on Wikipedia:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was Jehovah's only direct creation, and that everything else was created by means of Christ, and that the initial unassisted act of creation uniquely identifies Jesus as God's "only-begotten Son". Jesus served as a redeemer and a ransom sacrifice to pay for the sins of humankind. They believe Jesus died on a single upright torture stake rather than the traditional cross. They believe that references in the Bible to the Archangel Michael, Apollyon (a.k.a. Abaddon), and the Word all refer to Jesus.

It seems they believe that Christ was created, not eternal like Christians believe.

 

[jasoncran]

where's mohrb when ya need him.lol.

oh wait i was a jw.
the jw is a cult as they deny the deity of christ, theres no hell, no heaven for the believer(save the elect 144,000).also one has to be water baptised to be a jw, and do that one must go through a two yr gromming process.

and they dont believe in the use of the cross and also that need not be born agian to enter the kingdom.

 

[Mike]

You're correct in your statement that I wouldn't have asked you if I didn't know you were Oneness, but I didn't include that to ridicule you. Watchman, when I think of Godly men who don't accept the Trinity, you are foremost in my mind. I admire your faith greatly, and I never question your name in the Book of Life. I just believe you are missing out on knowing God in His Fullness. My opinion.

No disrespect intended.



Although Calvinism differs greatly about how I came to the point of believing, it doesn't change the fact that I believe. And it doesn't change the state of faith for anyone else, whether they believe or not. If someone doesn't believe, we would differ from Calvinists in determining why they don't believe, but it won't change the fact that they don't believe. And if they come to believe by free will (which we accept) or by predestination, we differ from them only on why they will. In then end, He will claim who He will claim, whether by His predetermination our by our acceptance of the salvation He offers to everyone.


*sigh*
JW & M don't believe in the Divinity of Jesus - Calvinists do.
JW & M have their own books - Calvinists don't.
JW & M are cults devised by men who re-wrote or added testimonies to the Bible - Calvinists never did that. They use the same Inspired Word and come to different conclusions.
JW & M don't believe in salvation by faith - Calvinists do, but differ on how we came to faith.

Just a few points, but I see them as essential. I hope you realize now that I wasn't attacking you. I believe we have different beliefs that end up with the same core tenets of our faith. JW & M do not. We have enough division within the Christian Church without claiming that the others aren't Christian, IMO.

Watchman, I really want you to understand where I'm coming from, so I'm sort of bumping this to your attention. As strongly as you feel about the illegitimacy of Calvinism, this to me is simply a difference in interpretation, which is vastly different from the grievous misdirections that JW's and Mormons have taken their members.

To add to what has been said of them, Mormons have it that God was once a person like you and me on another planet. He apparently was so righteous that he was awarded Earth to Lord over. Their doctrine holds that we too can aspire to be gods of our own planets, just as God is of ours. :o This said, I further argue that comparing them to Calvinists is extreme to say the least.

Also, JW's do not believe in the "physical" resurrection of Christ. They believe Christ was created and has not always been. In their version of the Bible, the NWT, they painstakingly altar verbiage to say that Jesus was created and was not present from the beginning.

I'm sure you know all this, but I'm adding it to highlight the extreme doctrine that separates them from biblical Christianity.

Please don't go on the defense. This isn't an ambush on you. It's not about you. I just believe making the statement that Calvinists are not Christians could leave you with more to answer for than if either of the sides are in error in their theology. I hope you understand.

 

[watchman F]

I'm sure you have seen my view of the OSAS thing, which is what you are talking about. Now I say this so you know I honestly have no more attachment to Calvinism than I have to Arminianism, as my view of OSAS isn't compatible with either really.

Actually OSAS has nothing a all to do with what I am asking.

To the point. Are you against all five points of Calvinism? Or are you against just that single point? You are aware that there is more to Calvinism than just the preservation of the saints, right?

Yes and that is what makes it worse. Preserverence is the leastof my concerns as far as calvinsim goes (well not least the least would be total depravity) it is the double predestinatin, and the limited atonement, as well as the iiresistable grace that is really the topic of this thread. The way those three doctrine make God out to be evil is why I question ther doctrine as christian.

You are also aware that Arminianism is just as flawed as its opposite, Calvinism, right? There are parts of Arminianism that are just as dangerous as the OSAS position of Calvinism.

No I dont explain to me from a neutral view point what is dangerous about arminianism.

Why is Arminianism considered Christian and JWs and Mormons are not?

Arminianism teaches that Man fell from grace in the garden, that Jesus died for the sins of all men, that we (the whole human race) now have the opportunity to be reconcile, and that those that receve this free gift will be granted eternal life if we endre until the end. I would like for you to show me where this is not biblically accurate.

 

[watchman F]

Preservation of the saints relies on more than just a verse here or there. In fact they have just as convincing passages as the opponents to the view do. They have just as strong counters as well. Who is to say your view is the unChristian view?

If you honestly think Calvinism is on the same level as JWs and Mormons one of three things is happening here.

You have a deep founded hatred for Calvinists and you may not even know why it is there. I doubt this is the reason...

You have no clue about Calvinism beyond your view that it is "dangerous" (and at this you are only speaking of a single point of Calvinism). I think this may be the case, based on your original post.

You have no clue about JWs and Mormons beyond the fact that they have our Bible but are not considered Christian. This could also be the case, judging by your first post.

Now I am just saying this because I am floored that you would make such a statement. It seems rather ridiculous to say. I'd be far more agreeable if you had instead condemned the RCC but still, I am not in agreement

None of your statements above are correct. I do know what calvinism teaches as well as mormons, and JW, I have study all these beliefs in detail so I can discuss them with those that adhere to them. I do NOT HATE calvist, I hate calvinism. Why? Because as I stated ealier it makes God out to be a liar, raptist, and murderer. Even if they believe in the Trinity, the death and resurrection, the docrtine of grace ect... The character assassinaton on the God am in love with is enough for me to say it is far more evil than JW or Mormonism. JW and Mormonism are blatenly and obviously wrong. Calvinism is like that water that is only %5 poison, it might even be smelless and tasteless, but if you continue to drink it you will die.

 

[watchman F]

You're correct in your statement that I wouldn't have asked you if I didn't know you were Oneness, but I didn't include that to ridicule you. Watchman, when I think of Godly men who don't accept the Trinity, you are foremost in my mind. I admire your faith greatly, and I never question your name in the Book of Life. I just believe you are missing out on knowing God in His Fullness. My opinion.

No disrespect intended.

I appreciate you kind words here, and I go to a Trinitarian church. However I do believe that we both know God in His fullness whether or not we agree on the semantics of the Godhead Cllsians 2:9 says the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in God bodily, and 1st john 4 say if I know the Son I know the Father as well. I have a wonderful relationsip with my Bridegroom King Jesus Christ, knowing the Father, and the irit come right along with that relationship, it it i like a package deal....lol

Although Calvinism differs greatly about how I came to the point of believing, it doesn't change the fact that I believe. And it doesn't change the state of faith for anyone else, whether they believe or not. If someone doesn't believe, we would differ from Calvinists in determining why they don't believe, but it won't change the fact that they don't believe. And if they come to believe by free will (which we accept) or by predestination, we differ from them only on why they will. In then end, He will claim who He will claim, whether by His predetermination our by our acceptance of the salvation He offers to everyone.

I understnd what you are saying here, and I do not necesarrily disagree. However for those learned in the doctrine of Calvinism and defend it. I just canno get over the view they have of my God.

*sigh*
JW & M don't believe in the Divinity of Jesus - Calvinists do.
JW & M have their own books - Calvinists don't.
JW & M are cults devised by men who re-wrote or added testimonies to the Bible - Calvinists never did that. They use the same Inspired Word and come to different conclusions.
JW & M don't believe in salvation by faith - Calvinists do, but differ on how we came to faith.

I have no interest in defending JW or Mormons, I know they are cults, and far, far, far away from the truth. My point is this... It doesn't matter how far off you are if you are living in deception you are living in deception, and my main problem is how God is portayed by the Calvinistic teaching.

Just a few points, but I see them as essential. I hope you realize now that I wasn't attacking you. I believe we have different beliefs that end up with the same core tenets of our faith. JW & M do not. We have enough division within the Christian Church without claiming that the others aren't Christian, IMO.

I know you weren't attacking me, matter of fact I do appreciate your tone, and klind words through this discussion. Also I believe that there are good christian calivinist out there. Matter of fact I g to a tradition pentecastol church and also attend two home church fellowship, as as a house of prayer. In one of those home fellowships I pastor it from my home, and one of the attendies is calvinist and a great man of God (I am weening into the truth through love and scripture). My issue is with the doctrine itself, and those that teach it and deffend it. Many of the people that attend calvinistic church love Jesus, and do not even really know the deeper message being taught in their church other than Jesus and salvation throuh His blood.

So I do believe a calvinist can be a christian while a mormon, and JW cannot. However I also believe that the portrayal of God by true teachers and defenders of Calvinism is worse than the portrayal of God by the Mormons or JWs.

 

[watchman F]

Like Pard, I would be interested to see what of the five points of Calvinism you believe in, watchman.

Peace,
Nick

I do not agree with any of the five points of Calvinism. The one that would be closest to what I believe nis1 Total depravity, although I do not believe humans are completely and totally depraved as Calvinism do, but I do believe man is evil, and very depraved absent our re-birth. The other 4 I am totally against.