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Why are Calvinist concidered Christians, but JWs, and Mormons are not?

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watchman F said:
I am in no way promoting JW, or mormonism. What I do not understand is why christianity calls them cults, yet accepts Calvinism, when Calvinism is every bit as unbiblical and much more dangerous, and evil?
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I'm sure I'll be sorry for attempting to answer this, but the theology of John Calvin is based on faith in Jesus Christ; That our salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That is a fundamental difference between what John Calvin, and other Christian theologians preach vs what JW and also Mormons teach. ....that is why John Calvin is/was...a Christian.

Beyond that, his work was very important to the whole of reform theology. You may disagree with some or all of it, but I think to do so is a bit close minded to some very influential thoughts on Christianity. In any case John Calvin never preached a doctrine designed to lead anyone down a path to eternal damnation based on scripture.

Most of the brightest minds of Christianity would agree, but you can read it yourself and if you don't like John Calvin then don't accept it. Where you get that what he has to say is perilelle to false teachings, or anything totally contrary to the word of God...I don't know, but your free to hold to that opinion. Just seems you don't want others to have that same freedom :bigfrown Simply because you may not understand it, or are wrestling with it.

It's just as frustrating to have someone attack the work of an important, pivotal, historical thinker like Calvin as it is, I'm sure for you to understand what the man had to say.
 
Pard said:
It does? Which of their five points says "God is a lying, murdering, rapist... HIDE YOUR DAUGHTERS!"
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Unconditional election, teaches that God decided who goes to Heaven or hell before He created the Earth, and irrestable grace says we cannot resist God call. Therefore.......
A. They call Him a liar because His word say He is no respector of person, yet they say He chooses some for Heaven and others for Hell.

B. They call Him a rapist because those He has chosen for Heaven He forces imself on them not given them any choice.

C. They call Him a murderer because those He has chosen for Hell He condemned without ever given them a chance for salvation decided their eternal fate before the foundation of the world created them only to condemn them.
 
dadof10 said:
I think it might be helpful to provide your, personal definition of "Christian". You are speaking from a Christian POV above ("...why christianity calls them cults...), could you please define what doctrines you hold that makes you "Christian"?

I personally think that Calvinism is a Christian denomination, yet JW's and Mormons are not. The dividing line between cult and denomination is the Trinity (open the floodgates :)). Any Protestant denomination that holds the doctrine of the Trinity is Christian.
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So matter what else i say if i believe in the three headed Godhead I am good with you huh? That is ridiculous.
 
jasoncran said:
watchmen, i asked mondar this a while ago, his claim.

that god doesnt do evil. he lets it happen.

the lord does repay evil with evil as in judgment. you kill, and you will be killed

smaller said that with the verse in galatians. for God is not mocked whatsoever you sow that you shall reap... if ye sow in the spirit then ye shall reap the same. and if the flesh discord.
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Corporal punishment is not murder.
 
Danus said:
I'm sure I'll be sorry for attempting to answer this, but the theology of John Calvin is based on faith in Jesus Christ; That our salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That is a fundamental difference between what John Calvin, and other Christian theologians preach vs what JW and also Mormons teach. ....that is why John Calvin is/was...a Christian.
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As jason has stated John Calvn was an unrepentant murderer not a christian.
 
ok, you do realise that he isnt the majority of calvinist.

he gets that from this verse

i am God behold i created and good and make evil.

bad exegesis on his part. its a merism and it should be understood that God being Good and defining it, will aslo define what is evil.
 
watchman F said:
Nope this is what smaller said.
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Nope, that is what scriptures present.

God works RETRIBUTIVE EVIL. Any casual glance at the Old Testament reveals these matters as FACT and God doesn't change.

IF you say the DEATH of the INNOCENT LAMB was NOT BY DIVINE DECREE as well, you understand LITTLE, if any of God.

s
 
jasoncran said:
me thinks that is what smaller was attempting to say.

however, i dont think that the calvinist is correct in that the idea of limited atonement.
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Every believer believes in LIMITED ATONEMENT. No one that I am aware of attributes ATONEMENT to DEVILS for example, thus LIMITED is in vogue for MOST believers.

I accept every point of the TULIP when ALL the parties to these matters are on the table of understandings. Not quite in the Calvin or Reformed way, but the understanding is VERY VERY close to accurate when DEVILS are applied to the picture. Apart from that fact however, the position has severe holes, easily proven.

An example? Total Depravity has ZERO CHANCE of holding up when the fact that ALL OF ISRAEL being GODS CHILDREN is on the table of fact. This is taught and held by Jews to this day from Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Mal. 2:10 and AFFIRMED BY JESUS in Matt. 23:9.

God ASSUREDLY DID NOT have TOTALLY DEPRAVED children, period.

It is not until we read the FACTS from Jesus, that 'where the Word is sown, Satan enters the hearts to steal (SIN)' that we can understand both TOTAL DEPRAVITY because of that ENTRANCE and also LIMITED ATONEMENT. The T and the L are confirmed ONLY with Satan IN man.

I also believe that no man can believe unless they are called by God Himself. All believers are CALLED by God to believe and this is UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. Nothing of the MAN is deemed of himself to be 'added' of himself to make such receipt. Irresistible GRACE calls them. All unbelievers (read-all mankind) are blinded by 'the god of this world' and that working is PULLED BACK for believers to believe. Otherwise GOD HAS ELECTED THEM to remain as UNBELIEVERS and there is nothing ANYONE can do about it but God. Where Calvin and the Canons of Dort are blinded however is that they make NO ACCOUNT of the BLINDER and see instead ONLY the BLINDED. Romans 11:25-32 effectively REFUTES Calvins view of DOUBLE predestination by showing that even ENEMIES of the Gospel (unbelieving Jews) ARE in fact saved, POST DEATH.

I also believe that OSAS in Calvinism/Reformed determinism is a laughing stock as NONE of them in that belief are allowed to claim same in the here and now unless they are outside of Calvinism, and some have taken this stance in more recent years (see Adrian Rogers in this thread as a recent example.) The understanding that A. Rogers has is NOT Calvinism, but a doctrinal extension of same, supportable in my views.

The state of belief is to HAVE eternal life, even while awaiting the FULLNESS of same.

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


s
 
watchman F said:
So matter what else i say if i believe in the three headed Godhead I am good with you huh? That is ridiculous.
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I never said you are "good with me" (whatever that's supposed to mean). I only said that those who believe in the Trinity are Christian, those who don't are not, for the most part. I'm sure you can find some small sect out there that teaches the Trinity and also believes in some other freaky doctrines, but by and large, the Trinity is the dividing line. People who are in error on certain doctrines are still Christian, they just don't hold to all Truth.

You seem a little defensive, Watchman. Is it because your finding it difficult to give a definition of "Christian"? A little harder than it seems at first blush, huh? It's easy to throw around terms until someone asks for your definition.
 
smaller, the limited atonement you preach is this.

only the predistened to salvation get it.

let's be civil. we know that god didnt die for the devil, but for a men, and any men can get that atonement if they just repent.

watchman, i made a point on calvin. i dont know if he did repent, but i was stating that if one meant to be saved and cant be lost forever, then how can one sin knowing the commandments.


perservance of the saints , they way smaller present is that even though a christian murders he is still saved.

i dont see that,if one can cold heartedly do that and never repent. how dwelleth god in thee?
 
jasoncran said:
true, but how can honestly kill persons that you are supposed to reach? he killed the jews, the catholics, and also the other christian sects.

theres a verse on this if a man hateth his brother the love of GOD cannot be in him.

he may have indeed repented but i find it hard that the man who came up with persevance of the saints as a doctrine(though i see support but not as they put it). would not think he wasnt saved. one can't be predestined to heaven and sin like that. kinda against what the bible says. we are ORDAINED to Good works.

so if god predestianed persons to salvation and not others, why then is their that level in calvin? and in other calvinists?

one a side note. i know some Godly calvinists and i do think they are in err. Nor do i think that they are a cult.i dont see them as anethema at all.
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I think they would (and will?) tell you that, as other denominations claim, we are justified by FAITH ALONE, so it really doesn't matter what Calvin (or you or me, for that matter) did. He is not justified by what he does, but by the sovereign Grace of God.

Now, Jason. You know I think this is a heretical teaching, and so do you. But this is what Calvinists would say, then they would bring up Scripture to support their conclusions. The problem isn't with Calvinism, per se, it's with the un-Biblical doctrine of sola-scriptura.

Everyone can find their pet doctrines contained within Scripture, which is why there are so many denominations all pointing at each others pet doctrines shouting "heresy!".
 
uh, no. that fide part includes the works , as faith without works is dead.

if we did it your way. then if i didnt repent over one little lie and i knew it, (and died)off to hell with ya.

solo fide is more then then you think. mondar a calvinist showed me that.

but lets not turn this into a catholic vs protestant thing here.

but perhaps at a later time i will engage more on the things that catholics that have come to my church have admitted to me. rather interesting things.
 
dadof10 said:
There are many Biblical refutations of Calvinism on the web by Protestants and Catholics alike. I could copy some links if you'll accept their conclusions.
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I could support Calvinism....my point is that its a disputable matter....Why can we judge one another

To refute Calvinism at its core is impossible- for its core is the Cross;)
 
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