Why are Calvinist concidered Christians, but JWs, and Mormons are not?

[smaller]

Calvinism and 'freewillism's' are essentially the same.

In the matters of explaining WHY unbelievers do not believe they vary. Calvinists do NOT blame and accuse the unbeliever, stating that God has not chosen them to believe. And in this I certainly can agree with that. Freewillism's blame and accuse the 'will' of the man and leave God entirely out of the equations. I don't find that a possibility. God can not logically be removed from the equations of faith.

In either case of explanations, there is one factual commonality with both camps. Freewillism's do believe that the unbeliever is eternally lost. So do the Calvinists.

The HOW might seem quite irrelevant seeing that the bottom line in both camps is totally identical.

As for OSAS, the Calvinist/determinist may claim OSAS, but they also claim they DO NOT KNOW if they are in fact saved. So even though they claim that position, they do NOT claim the reality of that fact to themselves in this present life. Neither do the freewill camps. So again, there is little to divide between them in these matters. Both parties recognize that you only know for sure when it's a reality.

Is there then that great of a difference?

I think not. It's just chatter food and the more important lesson is that one can get caught up in biting and devouring in these matters and that assuredly happens to those who fall headlong into condemnation, which is ALWAYS easily on the table to ingest against another person. In that both camps have their respective meals handed to them on a silver platter and should be aware of what they are doing to themselves in the process.

It is no different with Trinity understandings. There really is NOT that big of a spread in the "oneness" camps with the Triune camps. Trinity understandings readily acknowledge the ONENESS aspects of their positions, and Oneness camps readily acknowledge the diversity of workings of that same Oneness.

Is there really that much of a spread in all these matters, or are all these matters more of an expression to condemn other believers based on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? The latter to me seems to be the source of the problems being reflected from ALL camps toward each others.

We all know when the REAL JESUS stands up, all of these matters will be put to rest. Those who come before Him bearing GIFTS of ETERNAL CONDEMNATION of their fellow believers may have to take a place waaayyyy in the back of the line to the Table of Celebrations.

That is not an easy thing to shake off. One should be very cautious to step on that ground AT ALL. If any believer currently has positions that sets right for them, so be it. That does not 'give license' to condemn to anyone.

The sad fact of these matters is that ALL, I repeat ALL churches have one thing in common. They are ALL awash in the condemnations of other believers/sects.

The works of Satan were addressed to/in ALL SEVEN of the churches of Revelation. The reality is however when ANY GIVEN MEMBER reads those facts, in their hearts they ALL seem to automatically EXEMPT themselves from those facts.

Why is that?

I believe there is a rampant dishonesty working in them all that is NOT THEM.

Any who are called to HEAR will HEAR that side of the Word and apply it to THEMSELVES.

Many will find cleansing in these matters IN HONESTY and BEFORE the FINALE. My HOPE in any case of understandings.

s

 

[Mike]

The sad fact of these matters is that ALL, I repeat ALL churches have one thing in common. They are ALL awash in the condemnations of other believers/sects.

Nice post, smaller.

The part I quoted is the only section I take issue with. This is an argument that I see non-Christians make for the illegitimacy of our faith. They observe, or claim they observe, that across denominations, we stay busy by denouncing others and hold that ours is the only true understanding.

I think this is overstated by them, and us sometimes. Sure some individuals might feel this way in most every church, but I believe this is the minority. I've never been in a "biblical Christian" church that had such a stern view of others. There is the acknowledgment that we differ in certain areas, but the things we hold as one are much more binding in the One True Church.

Maybe I read too much into this one statement of yours, but I believe most would hold that Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc., as well as non-denominationals, are quite equal in the Body of Christ.

If you've ever been to a cross-denominational rally or conference, you've likely seen a beautiful example of this. I attended many Promise Keepers conferences in which this was a strong witness of our shared faith. There was NO condemnation there!

 

[watchman F]

It actually takes grace to receive grace, we are all to depraved to choose God. However God doesn't just offer all men salvation, and then give grace to receive it to those that He has predestined, but God give grace to all men to receive salvation, and some, even many simply do not want to be saved.

John 1:16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.

We have all indeed receive grace to rceive grace.

 

[lovely]

Many people do consider Calvinism a cult. Over 13 years ago, our family was asked to leave an SBC church we were attending since high school, because we were considered to be part of a cult....that wouldn't be the last time we were asked to either give up the doctrine or leave.

 

[Pard]

It's like a painting.

We all get the main purpose or idea of the painting because it is pretty obvious, but we fret and have different views of the nuances of the painting. No two people look at a painting the same way. The only way to know that the painting really and truly meant was to go to the painter.

The Bible is the same way. We all get the main purpose and idea because it is obvious and in your face. Christians get tangled up in the nuances of the Bible. The minor little things and then we damn one another and claim they do not believe in Christ (un-Christian) because they do not agree with us to the t.

Watchman, I am directing this at you, but it is a general statement that I have noticed lately here and elsewhere and it has just been rubbing me the wrong way.

Safe condemnation until you can personally ask the Big Man up in Heaven. Let Him be the final say, not yourself.

 

[smaller]

Nice post, smaller.

The part I quoted is the only section I take issue with. This is an argument that I see non-Christians make for the illegitimacy of our faith. They observe, or claim they observe, that across denominations, we stay busy by denouncing others and hold that ours is the only true understanding.

I think this is overstated by them, and us sometimes. Sure some individuals might feel this way in most every church, but I believe this is the minority. I've never been in a "biblical Christian" church that had such a stern view of others. There is the acknowledgment that we differ in certain areas, but the things we hold as one are much more binding in the One True Church.

I don't want to decry the obvious here, but it IS a fact that mainline orthodoxy in the E.O. or R.C.C. varieties DO condemn outside believers as HERETICS. This is simply a FACT. And so do the Baptists and the list could go on and on and is IN FACT quite written into their various POLICIES.

I just pointed out that there is a more dire working in these matters that I will not participate in, and that is the condemnation they have eaten from to other believers.

Maybe I read too much into this one statement of yours, but I believe most would hold that Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc., as well as non-denominationals, are quite equal in the Body of Christ.

I believe you will find some hardline statements within ALL of the above. IF you are not aware of them do yourself a favor and AVOID their condemnation meals.

I have been baptised THREE TIMES just to avoid these conflicts. Once as a child Lutheran, once as an adult covert to the RCC and once to assuage the Baptists by making sure I was FULLY IMMERSED with the 'right words' being spoken while FULLY SUBMERGED. I believe I MIGHT be OK by now.... But the sad reality is that they ALL practice these various forms of condemnations back and forth seemingly endlessly. I just got sick of the condemnation meals and pressed on.

If you've ever been to a cross-denominational rally or conference, you've likely seen a beautiful example of this. I attended many Promise Keepers conferences in which this was a strong witness of our shared faith. There was NO condemnation there!

Oh, it was there. This much I know for a fact. As a largely untrained group of general adherents, they can claim all they want at such rallies, but behind the scenes proselytizing to the sects and TRAINING those divisions into all the various formations still exists, and that continues to spread divisions for the basis of condemnations of other sects believers.

It's kinda like the .gov in that respect. Rules rules rules eventually makes VIOLATORS of us all.

The RULE OF THE LOVE OF GOD IN JESUS CHRIST toward US ALL will PREVAIL regardless of the jots and tittles of the SECTS.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[watchman F]

It's like a painting.

We all get the main purpose or idea of the painting because it is pretty obvious, but we fret and have different views of the nuances of the painting. No two people look at a painting the same way. The only way to know that the painting really and truly meant was to go to the painter.

The Bible is the same way. We all get the main purpose and idea because it is obvious and in your face. Christians get tangled up in the nuances of the Bible. The minor little things and then we damn one another and claim they do not believe in Christ (un-Christian) because they do not agree with us to the t.

Watchman, I am directing this at you, but it is a general statement that I have noticed lately here and elsewhere and it has just been rubbing me the wrong way.

Safe condemnation until you can personally ask the Big Man up in Heaven. Let Him be the final say, not yourself.

So you have no problem with me telling you the God of the Bible is a liar, raptist, and murderer?????????????

 

[Pard]

So you have no problem with me telling you the God of the Bible is a liar, raptist, and murderer?????????????

Personally I have a problem, but I am not about to call judgment upon you because of it. I am not going to brand you as un-Christian because of it. There are reasons I would brand someone as un-Christian and that is not one of them.

Of course I also have to point out that I have never heard of a Calvinist who calls God a liar, a rapist, and a murderer.

 

[smaller]

So you have no problem with me telling you the God of the Bible is a liar, raptist, and murderer?????????????

God surely PRACTICED the exercise of RETRIBUTIVE EVIL throughout the Old Testament.

Daniel was PLUCKED from the Lions Den, and those who sought his death therein had THEMSELVES and their FAMILIES tossed in later in DIVINE RETRIBTIONS and were ripped to shreds before they hit the ground.

Daniel 6:24
And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast them into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den.

Same with the family of HAMAN. HUNG on the very GALLOWS that he sought to HANG JEWS upon.

And on and on RETRIBUTIVE EVIL is shown in the O.T. Is God a murderer for these matters?

Absolutely and JUSTLY so. God guarantees the RETURN of EVIL to EVIL as what a man SOWS that SHALL HE REAP. This is A DIVINE GUARANTEE on this present earth.

The notion that GOD does not exercise RETRIBUTIVE EVIL to the EVIL that is IN MANKIND is FALSE.

He CAN and DOES to this day and does so to keep EVIL IN CHECK as a reminder.

In this way GOD IS VERY MUCH A DETERMINIST.

s

 

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by watchman F
So you have no problem with me telling you the God of the Bible is a liar, raptist, and murderer?????????????

Personally I have a problem, but I am not about to call judgment upon you because of it. I am not going to brand you as un-Christian because of it.

Whaaat???? If calling God a liar, rapist, and murderer, not going to get a person branded unchristian then what in the world could?

There are reasons I would brand someone as un-Christian and that is not one of them.

What could be worse than claiming God is a liar, raptist and murderer?

Of course I also have to point out that I have never heard of a Calvinist who calls God a liar, a rapist, and a murderer.

Of course they would ever admit to believe that, but it is what their doctrine teaches.

 

[watchman F]

Is God a murderer for these matters?

Absolutely and JUSTLY so. God guarantees the RETURN of EVIL to EVIL as what a man SOWS that SHALL HE REAP. This is A DIVINE GUARANTEE on this present earth.

Justice and murder is not the same thing. Murder is the taking of an innocent life, that the taking of a guilty one. According to Calvinism God is a murderer because He condemns certain ones to Hell before they have ever done any good or evil.

Pard you said you have never heard a calivnist call God a liar, rapist or murderer, and i was with you we probably wouldn't. Well we were both wrong here smaller proudly states God is a murderer.

 

[watchman F]

The simple fact is through Calvinism one of Paul's greatest fears have been realized. As we stated JW, and Mormonism is so far off it can;t even been compared to the gospel. However Calvinism is so close you can hardly tell the difference, but there is a difference. The God of Calvimnism is notthe God of the Bible, The Jesus of Calvinism is not the Jesus Paul taught, and the spirit of Calvinism is not the Spirit receive by the disciples of Paul.

2nd Corinthians 11
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him..........
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


The teachers of Calvinism are indeed ministers of Satan.

 

[smaller]

Justice and murder is not the same thing. Murder is the taking of an innocent life, that the taking of a guilty one. According to Calvinism God is a murderer because He condemns certain ones to Hell before they have ever done any good or evil.

Calvinism presents factually that ALL HAVE SIN and have SINNED and are thusly condemned for same. I may have issues with these particulars, but their overall fact is assuredly TRUE.

Pard you said you have never heard a calivnist call God a liar, rapist or murderer, and i was with you we probably wouldn't. Well we were both wrong here smaller proudly states God is a murderer.

IF you say that God does not practice RETRIBUTIVE EVIL to the EVIL in mankind, you would be very WRONG. The O.T. is filled with such accounts. See the FLOOD or S&G for reminders.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I would be VERY cautious about SOWING ETERNAL DEATH upon other believers.

s

 

[Pard]

Whaaat???? If calling God a liar, rapist, and murderer, not going to get a person branded unchristian then what in the world could?
What could be worse than claiming God is a liar, raptist and murderer?

Calling Jesus a person, for one. Though I think what you do not get from my reasoning is that on a personally level I would be on the verge of punching that person in the face. I can't act on a personal level, people can be confused about a lot of aspects of God and still be saved, and thus Christian. I do not think I would call them Christian if they kept that belief for their entire life, but for a very new Christian or one who is weak in faith, I surely can see their problem and I am not going to judge them on their weak or new faith.

Of course they would ever admit to believe that, but it is what their doctrine teaches.

It does? Which of their five points says "God is a lying, murdering, rapist... HIDE YOUR DAUGHTERS!"

 

[dadof10]

I am in no way promoting JW, or mormonism. What I do not understand is why christianity calls them cults, yet accepts Calvinism, when Calvinism is every bit as unbiblical and much more dangerous, and evil?

I think it might be helpful to provide your, personal definition of "Christian". You are speaking from a Christian POV above ("...why christianity calls them cults...), could you please define what doctrines you hold that makes you "Christian"?

I personally think that Calvinism is a Christian denomination, yet JW's and Mormons are not. The dividing line between cult and denomination is the Trinity (open the floodgates ). Any Protestant denomination that holds the doctrine of the Trinity is Christian.

 

[jasoncran]

watchmen, i asked mondar this a while ago, his claim.

that god doesnt do evil. he lets it happen.

the lord does repay evil with evil as in judgment. you kill, and you will be killed

smaller said that with the verse in galatians. for God is not mocked whatsoever you sow that you shall reap... if ye sow in the spirit then ye shall reap the same. and if the flesh discord.

 

[dadof10]

watchmen, i asked mondar this a while ago, his claim.

that god doesnt do evil. he lets it happen.

Yes, that's the Calvinist's attempt to skirt the justice issue. That would make sense if we weren't talking about God, but since God CREATES us and we are PURPOSEFULLY CREATED as evil beings, God CREATES evil. Face it, we're not talking about someone coming across a person just about to do evil and refusing to stop him, allowing him to sin. We're talking about an omniscient God creating a being WITH THE UNCHANGEABLE DESTINY TO BURN IN HELL FOREVER, and nothing he or anyone else can do about it. A Calvinist will claim "SOVEREIGNTY", and he would be correct, but he couldn't claim justice.

There is no getting around it.

 

[jasoncran]

i dont agree with calvinism on two premises

the mental struggle of all not meaning all.

the fact that calvin was murderer himself and somehow makes it too heaven yet never repents to my knowledge.

that being said i look the bible for any doctrine of luther, the rcc, or calvin. since men sin but the word is preserved.

and then theres your view, i dont think that God wants men to enter hell, he honors their choices and judges them.
God clearly takes no joy in the death of the sinner he clearly says it in ezekiel 36, and one of the epistles of peter.

our God is longsuffering and doenst want any men to perish.

God died for us while we were yet sinners.

 

[dadof10]

i dont agree with calvinism on two premises

the mental struggle of all not meaning all.

the fact that calvin was murderer himself and somehow makes it too heaven yet never repents to my knowledge.

I don't know what you're referring to here, but whether Calvin died an unrepentant sinner or not is not for us to know.

and then theres your view, i dont think that God wants men to enter hell, he honors their choices and judges them.

The above wasn't my view, it was my interpretation of Calvinism's view. I agree man has free will. I'm Catholic, Jason...

 

[jasoncran]

true, but how can honestly kill persons that you are supposed to reach? he killed the jews, the catholics, and also the other christian sects.

theres a verse on this if a man hateth his brother the love of GOD cannot be in him.

he may have indeed repented but i find it hard that the man who came up with persevance of the saints as a doctrine(though i see support but not as they put it). would not think he wasnt saved. one can't be predestined to heaven and sin like that. kinda against what the bible says. we are ORDAINED to Good works.

so if god predestianed persons to salvation and not others, why then is their that level in calvin? and in other calvinists?

one a side note. i know some Godly calvinists and i do think they are in err. Nor do i think that they are a cult.i dont see them as anethema at all.