Why are Calvinist concidered Christians, but JWs, and Mormons are not?

[Free]

Are you familiar with the term "religion"? It sounds like you have changed the definition of "lifting up the heart and mind to God" to something derogatory. Feel free to look up the word in the dictionary and correct me, if I am mistaken. I believe James defines what religion is, and it is NOT derogatory.

That was my first thought. Here it is from Merriam-Webster:

Definition of RELIGION
1
a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices


watchman F,

Christianity is a religion. If you practice Christianity, you practice a religion.

 

[watchman F]

For some reason this is a common saying in Evangelicalism, at least in some circles, but is completely lacking in reason. Christianity is, by definition, a religion. There is no getting around that.

Actually there is getting around it. Is my relationship with my mom a religion, or my relationship with my wife a religion? NO, nor is my relationship with my Lord, and Savior a religion. You can have religion all you want, but as for me and my house we will love the Lord.

 

[mondar]

James 2:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

 

[watchman F]

Christ set us free from Religion.

Be wary that you do not fall into the subculture of Christianity that I like to refer to as “Churchianity.” Religion that is void of power. Looking, talking, acting the way a person who goes to church should, but living a life void of the power of God. His power is experienced within His presence thru adherence to the Word. True Christianity is the right to intimate relationship with Almighty God.

 

[Free]

Actually there is getting around it. Is my relationship with my mom a religion, or my relationship with my wife a religion? NO, nor is my relationship with my Lord, and Savior a religion. You can have religion all you want, but as for me and my house we will love the Lord.

Bad analogy. Once again:

Definition of RELIGION
1
a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

If you worship your mom or wife as a deity and set up certain beliefs and practices in doing so, then yes it would be a religion regardless of the relationship. The fact is, according to the definition of religion, Christianity is a religion which has a belief that one can have a relationship with God. That you want to emphasize this particular belief in no way whatsoever means that Christianity is not a religion.

Christ set us free from Religion.

He did?

Be wary that you do not fall into the subculture of Christianity that I like to refer to as “Churchianity.†Religion that is void of power. Looking, talking, acting the way a person who goes to church should, but living a life void of the power of God. His power is experienced within His presence thru adherence to the Word. True Christianity is the right to intimate relationship with Almighty God.

While true, this is irrelevant to the fact that Christianity is a religion.

 

[bleitzel]

watchman, I too have studied the other religions of the world, and I too see the inherent difficulties of Calvinism and what it says about the qualities of God. But you're braver than I to post the OP!

 

[watchman F]

watchman, I too have studied the other religions of the world, and I too see the inherent difficulties of Calvinism and what it says about the qualities of God. But you're braver than I to post the OP!

............

 

[watchman F]

While true, this is irrelevant to the fact that Christianity is a religion.

The ''religion'' of christianity is just as bad as any other religion. It produces hypocrites that have no idea of their need for repentants that will one day wake up in Hell to realize Jesus never knew them. True Christianity is NOT a religion.

 

[handy]

OK, let's stick with what James tells us is the pure religion. I know mondar posted this but just as a reminder:

James 2:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Now let's add to it Watchman's words: "Is my relationship with my mom a religion, or my relationship with my wife a religion? NO, nor is my relationship with my Lord, and Savior a religion. You can have religion all you want, but as for me and my house we will love the Lord."

Let me ask you this Watchman, if a man loved the Lord even more than his wife or his mother (although he loved those two as well) and was religious in the sense of James 2:26, meeting the needs of those afflicted, not only orphans and widows, but the homeless, those suffering from illnesses, to the point of even bringing home a family of 5, an out-of-work father, mother, 2 preschoolers and an infant, to live with his wife and him in a 12 by 50 foot, two bedroom mobile home, because the Lord laid it upon his heart to do so: Would you say then that this man was a Christian?

 

[francisdesales]

Christ set us free from Religion.

Be wary that you do not fall into the subculture of Christianity that I like to refer to as “Churchianity.†Religion that is void of power. Looking, talking, acting the way a person who goes to church should, but living a life void of the power of God. His power is experienced within His presence thru adherence to the Word. True Christianity is the right to intimate relationship with Almighty God.

Please offer ONE CITATION where Jesus "frees us from religion"... Where???

Mondar has cited my James reference. Jesus has something to say, as well...

(To save Mondar some time, I'll cite it myself)

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

Jesus didn't come to "free us from religion"... Quite the opposite - to get us back into the proper mindset of what true religion IS (see James again for an example)

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The ''religion'' of christianity is just as bad as any other religion. It produces hypocrites that have no idea of their need for repentants that will one day wake up in Hell to realize Jesus never knew them. True Christianity is NOT a religion.

You are confusing legalism (what Paul calls "works of the law") with religion...

True Christianity is indeed a religion, it is becoming a disciple of Christ, dying to self for the sake of love of others. It includes loving others, since those who claim to love God but not neighbor are liars (1 John). Christianity is not about a "me and Jesus" relationship, (where do we find this "personal relationship with Jesus" that ignores or chastises the community of believers in the bible?) such a mentality is more a "me and myself" mindset, especially when we feel free to cast derision on fellow brothers and sisters. Such action is not the result of a true relationship with Christ, which is exemplified by our love of others, not our claim to be in love with an invisible God.

All religions are susciptible to legalism, but so are personal relationships with who we think is God but turns out to be ourselves...

Regards

 

[handy]

Joe, I have a problem with the whole "personal relationship with Jesus" thing as well. I don't see where the "personal relationship" is touted in the Scriptures as what separates the sheep from the goats.

Don't get me wrong, I know that we who believe in Him who was sent by the Father to die for us do indeed have a personal relationship with Him, but that is what grows from our belief and our obedience to His commandments. Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will obey My commandments." A personal relationship with God is a by-product of our belief and faith, not a replacement of it.

I do pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power and intercession of the Holy Spirit and He listens and answers my prayers, speaks to me, mainly through His word, but also within my heart, and yes, I do have that "personal relationship" with God. But, that is not all there is to it. To say that we can jettison all doctrine not only is disobeying God, as His word tells us to be nourished by both faith and doctrine,(1 Tim 4:6) but opens us up to exactly what Paul warned the Ephesians about when he said that God gave us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to equip us so that we are not tossed around by every wind of doctrine. (Eph 4:11-16).

We do have personal relationship with God, but this cannot be at the expense of our relationship within the Body of Christ, whom we are to love as we love our own selves.

 

[Mike]

I believe the world has obscured the connotations of the word "religion". I have to admit, when a non-believer asks if I'm religious, I wince a bit and say something like, "Not really. I just love the Lord." I have that response because people outside the faith look at all the "rituals" and can't see the heart.

But among us, and I do believe all the participants in this thread are Christians, I'm not leery of the word. We all understand "religion" or "religious" within the context of Christianity. In my opinion, we can call it a "religion" because it is, without the meaning of what Christianity is being lost in the translation.

 

[watchman F]

You are confusing legalism (what Paul calls "works of the law") with religion...

Actaully most reigious christians are the opposite of legalist. They think because they have a religion they are saved regardless of their actions.

 

[watchman F]

Joe, I have a problem with the whole "personal relationship with Jesus" thing as well. I don't see where the "personal relationship" is touted in the Scriptures as what separates the sheep from the goats.

Don't get me wrong, I know that we who believe in Him who was sent by the Father to die for us do indeed have a personal relationship with Him, but that is what grows from our belief and our obedience to His commandments. Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will obey My commandments." A personal relationship with God is a by-product of our belief and faith, not a replacement of it.

I do pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power and intercession of the Holy Spirit and He listens and answers my prayers, speaks to me, mainly through His word, but also within my heart, and yes, I do have that "personal relationship" with God. But, that is not all there is to it. To say that we can jettison all doctrine not only is disobeying God, as His word tells us to be nourished by both faith and doctrine,(1 Tim 4:6) but opens us up to exactly what Paul warned the Ephesians about when he said that God gave us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to equip us so that we are not tossed around by every wind of doctrine. (Eph 4:11-16).

We do have personal relationship with God, but this cannot be at the expense of our relationship within the Body of Christ, whom we are to love as we love our own selves.

Of course doctrine is important. However Calvinist teach false doctrine, and worse than that they teach a doctinre that makes God out to be a monster who condemns people to satify the pleasure of His will.

 

[handy]

OK, let's stick with what James tells us is the pure religion. I know mondar posted this but just as a reminder:

James 2:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Now let's add to it Watchman's words: "Is my relationship with my mom a religion, or my relationship with my wife a religion? NO, nor is my relationship with my Lord, and Savior a religion. You can have religion all you want, but as for me and my house we will love the Lord."

Let me ask you this Watchman, if a man loved the Lord even more than his wife or his mother (although he loved those two as well) and was religious in the sense of James 2:26, meeting the needs of those afflicted, not only orphans and widows, but the homeless, those suffering from illnesses, to the point of even bringing home a family of 5, an out-of-work father, mother, 2 preschoolers and an infant, to live with his wife and him in a 12 by 50 foot, two bedroom mobile home, because the Lord laid it upon his heart to do so: Would you say then that this man was a Christian?

Watchman, if you're not already doing so, I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this!

 

[smaller]

All religions are susciptible to legalism, but so are personal relationships with who we think is God but turns out to be ourselves...

Regards

Gotta hat's off to ya on that one FD...:yes

 

[watchman F]

I believe the world has obscured the connotations of the word "religion". I have to admit, when a non-believer asks if I'm religious, I wince a bit and say something like, "Not really. I just love the Lord." I have that response because people outside the faith look at all the "rituals" and can't see the heart.

But among us, and I do believe all the participants in this thread are Christians, I'm not leery of the word. We all understand "religion" or "religious" within the context of Christianity. In my opinion, we can call it a "religion" because it is, without the meaning of what Christianity is being lost in the translation.

Religious christians think that belasue their ''religion'' is cistianity they are saved. They have beliefs like, because their mother was a christian then they are, or because they were baptized or attend church they are a christian or because they are American they are a christian. This is religion ot relationship.

 

[watchman F]

OK, let's stick with what James tells us is the pure religion. I know mondar posted this but just as a reminder:

James 2:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Now let's add to it Watchman's words: "Is my relationship with my mom a religion, or my relationship with my wife a religion? NO, nor is my relationship with my Lord, and Savior a religion. You can have religion all you want, but as for me and my house we will love the Lord."

Let me ask you this Watchman, if a man loved the Lord even more than his wife or his mother (although he loved those two as well) and was religious in the sense of James 2:26, meeting the needs of those afflicted, not only orphans and widows, but the homeless, those suffering from illnesses, to the point of even bringing home a family of 5, an out-of-work father, mother, 2 preschoolers and an infant, to live with his wife and him in a 12 by 50 foot, two bedroom mobile home, because the Lord laid it upon his heart to do so: Would you say then that this man was a Christian?

I believe they would be. However IMO it is much easier to tell who isn't a christian than to tell who is.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not everyone tha claims christianity is a Chistian, not even everyone that one the outside seems like they are.

 

[handy]

OK, now. You have been the one to make this about a personal relationship rather than belief in God.

James tells us what pure, undefiled religion is, and even our Lord said that those who did so "even to the least of these, did so for Me."

My dad, a Calvinist to the day he died was the man who brought home the family of 5. I lived with them at the time (was going through college) and I moved in with my sister and gave my bedroom as a room for the kids and the father and mother slept on the sofa bed in the living room. These people not only were homeless and hungry, they had lice and scabies as well. Dad paid for their medical treatment, gave up his days off to help the father find a job and paid for the medical treatments for the pests. Mom cooked, washed and did dishes for the crowd as the mother just was too overwhelmed. Dad and Mom, both Calvinists.

This wasn't because Dad was "doing it in the name" it was because God laid it upon his heart to reach out to these people and give them shelter, winter in California being nippy. It was something Dad did quite often, we were just kind of used to Dad bringing people home for a meal or something. He had God's love for others, and believed that James 2:14-17 was to be taken literally.

Here is something to consider: When his cancer had totally rendered it impossible for him to eat, the man was no longer able to eat anything, he took a call from the pastor of his church. When he hung up, he told me to write out a check of his for $100, signed it with a very shaky hand and asked me to drive it over to the pastor so that the pastor could buy food for a single mother of 3 kids. The man was no longer able to eat, but still used what little strength he had to ensure others could.

And you're saying that he has no relationship with Christ because he was a Calvinist? Love like that only comes from Christ, Watchman!