Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[jgredline]

AV
Thanks a bunch....Now I understand...I should have known better :

Blessings, brother.
javier

 

[AVBunyan]

AV
Thanks a bunch....Now I understand...I should have known better :

I appreciate you keeping me straight - Sometimes another can spot things that I may have been unclear in.

Thanks for the watchful eye. :D

God bless

 

[Free]

God justifies the sinner based upon what Christ did at Calvary.
The sinner is chosen.
God draws him.
The Spirit quickens him.
The sinner is regenerated.
Then...he can believe the gospel.
Then he is able to understand spiritual things.
One of the things he will see is the deity of Jesus Christ that he is God.

So what then is regeneration?

 

[Veritas]

Imagican wrote:
Christ offers WITHOUT exception HOW and TO WHOM we ARE to pray. And this was NOT to Him but to GOD. As in, OUR FATHER........... An EXAMPLE, an actual PRAYER offered BY Christ to HIS FATHER as well as OURS.

We can pray to Jesus too!

Jesus told us to:
...I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. John 14:12-14

Paul did:
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christâ€â€their Lord and ours: 1 Cor 1:2

I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 1 Timothy 1:12

and John did:
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20

Imagican wrote:
'I' was saved by God THROUGH His Son. There is ONLY One able to offer Salvation; God. HOW He is able to do this IS of His OWN accord. He CHOSE to offer Salvation THROUGH His Son. This I accept WHOLE-HEARTEDLY.

...we wait for the blessed hopeâ€â€the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

again...

I am the LORD your God...You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. Hosea 13:4

What are your conclusions?

 

[francisdesales]

Revelation 1:1

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

This does not prove that the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ are two different things. John 1 says they are the same thing. The English language does not necessitate that the use of "and" means we are dealing with two distinct propositions. They may be describing the very same person or idea.

For example, "introducing our fellow citizen and president..." Does this mean we are introducing two people? No. Thus, your use of language falls short.

As usual, you ignore what others have already said on this subject. You have also ignored verses I have given you - for example, when the JEWS recogized that Jesus was making claims to be God.

What about this verse?

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him John 8:58-59

"I am" was understood as the name applied to God, that eternal being that has always existed. Jesus is claiming this title for Himself.

John later writes...

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; 1 John 1:1-2

Again, can you think of something that has eternal life, always existing, that wasn't God?

You are incorrect. The Apostles DID teach that Jesus was Divine. While they may not have fully understood the implications of the Trinity that were to develop with the continued meditation on God's Word within the life of the Community and Liturgical worship, it is clear that the kernel was there, the teachings necessary to show that the Apostles believed that Jesus was God and the Spirit was God and the Father was God.

Is refusing to believe that Jesus was God important?

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24

As to the writings of the first Christians, you are going to have to prove that they were "making it all up". It is quite obvious that they were passing down what they had been taught, because that was what they believed. These men felt they were protecting something sacred, something from God. They were willing to die to preserve those teachings and live them. People don't go to the lions to defend something they change at their whim. No, you are basing your entire premise on pure speculation. There is no evidence that Christianity did NOT believe in the undeveloped form of the doctrine of Trinity from the very beginning. The burden is upon you to show otherwise. This means EVIDENCE, not just your opinion.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

J,

First, the atonement is at stake. If Jesus is merely a created being, and not fully God, then it is hard to see how he, a creature, could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins. Could any creature, no matter how great, really save us?

You can't really mean this can you? When confronted on HOW it's possible for God to 'forsake Himself' you expect others to UNDERSTAND this 'mystery', yet then you say that God is UNABLE to offer our Salvation in ANY WAY that HE sees FIT.

Here is a SIMPLE answer to your dilema:

God created HIS LAMB, a spotless 'creature', (as you put it), to perform that which was NEEDED. We have the scriptures that offer that God IS the HEAD of Christ, as Christ IS the HEAD of man, as man IS the HEAD of woman. We were created FOR Christ. As Christ was created FOR God.

And j, how was it possible for man to atone for his sins by sacrificing birds, cattle, etc, IN THE PAST? If you can understand this, then how much EASIER is it to understand how God's SON could be a more suitable sacrifice.

And from your perspective WHAT need would an ALL KNOWING God have to 'take on the flesh'? If He was TRULY 'all knowing', what could HE possibly accomplish by performing something such as ALLOWING HIMSELF to be sacrificed? Can't you SEE the significance of His Sacrifice of HIS SON? For many a man would Gladly offer THEMSELVES in place of their children to die. Can't you see HOW MUCH MORE love it took to allow the sacrifice of HIS SON than to 'take on the flesh Himself'?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

j,

Have you 'missed' all the implications concerning 'family'? We see it's significance in 'nations', in Father and Son, in Man and Woman, etc..... We even have Paul stating that THIS IS THE MYSTERY of God.

'Let US make man in OUR image'. Does this sound like a statement made concerning ONE entity? Or does it ring of 'more than one'?

That Christ IS the 'image' of the invisible God goes to 'point out' what is offered here.

Christ IS deity; for He IS the Son of God. NOT 'a' son, but THE Son. And that He was 'created' or 'made' IS STATED in The Word. To deny this is to DENY The Word. And LOOK at the 'pains' one is forced to 'go through' in order to 'explain away' these simple statements made by The Word.

Yesterday, today and FOREVER makes NO indication that this MEANS FROM ETERNITY. Only 'before' man. We know LITTLE if ANYTHING about history of heaven BEFORE our Creation. I'm quite sure that this information is for a 'later date'.

Alpha and Omega can very well be a statement concerning OUR EXISTENCE. It says NOTHING about ETERNITY. Simply the 'beginning and ending of MAN' as he exists in the PHYSICAL World.

There IS MUCH that we DO NOT KNOW. Yet there IS MUCH that we have been GIVEN. Information concerning Christ's deity is NOT COMPLETE. Only so far as it pertains to OUR NEED. But there IS information offered OVER AND OVER and OVER that SPEAKS of Christ being a 'part' of God but NOT GOD HIMSELF.

God IS ABLE to CHOOSE the method in which He accomplishes ANYTHING He desires. To deny this is NOT ONLY TO DENY HIS DEITY, but to deny the RANK so often offered concerning HIS administration. Just as their are different MEANS of authority here on earth, it is INDICATED that so too are their different administrations IN HEAVEN.

MEC

 

[cyberjosh]

My point is that the natural man does not understand the things of God so as a natural man the sinner may not comprehend the deity of Jesus Christ at the point of regeneration. He was told to believe what Christ did at Calvary - that Christ died for his sins, that is most likely all he is capable of comprehending at that time. The messenger may or may not expound the deity of Christ at this time.

God justifies the sinner based upon what Christ did at Calvary.
The sinner is chosen.
God draws him.
The Spirit quickens him.
The sinner is regenerated.
Then...he can believe the gospel.
Then he is able to understand spiritual things.
One of the things he will see is the deity of Jesus Christ that he is God.

This I think I can agree with. Thank you for clarifying. Its just that my theology is so Christocentric that I have a hard time defining any relationship between God and man without seeing Jesus as the central focus point and mediator. Thus the Bible says that Jesus is "all in all". I am just zealous to defend and teach others of the person of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

Guys,

Answser me THIS: IF God cannot STAND to look upon 'the flesh' for it's SINFUL NATURE, how is it that HE PERSONALLY 'took on' the flesh? How could this BE? For God to enter into something SO sinful seems like something that He would CERTAINLY find 'a way' around.

One more question for those that state Jesus HAD to BE God in order to offer US Salvation. WHY? How is it that YOU can FORCE God to do ANYTHING any PARTICULAR WAY? And here's the question:

For these that hold this belief, IS it IMPOSSIBLE for God to have 'done it DIFFERNTLY' than 'YOUR' understanding?

MEC

 

[Veritas]

Imagican wrote:
Answser me THIS: IF God cannot STAND to look upon 'the flesh' for it's SINFUL NATURE, how is it that HE PERSONALLY 'took on' the flesh? How could this BE? For God to enter into something SO sinful seems like something that He would CERTAINLY find 'a way' around.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. John 6:53

One more question for those that state Jesus HAD to BE God in order to offer US Salvation. WHY? How is it that YOU can FORCE God to do ANYTHING any PARTICULAR WAY? And here's the question:
For these that hold this belief, IS it IMPOSSIBLE for God to have 'done it DIFFERNTLY' than 'YOUR' understanding?

I go by what the Book says, don't take my word for it, read below!

I am the LORD your God...You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. Hosea 13:4 (Now) we wait for the blessed hopeâ€â€the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

 

[cyberjosh]

Answser me THIS: IF God cannot STAND to look upon 'the flesh' for it's SINFUL NATURE, how is it that HE PERSONALLY 'took on' the flesh?

I don't even have to answer that question, because either way (whether I say Jesus is God or not) you make Jesus have a sinful nature either that or you deny Jesus came in the flesh (which John said is a sign of an unbeliver).

~Josh

 

[AVBunyan]

Guys,
Answser me THIS: IF God cannot STAND to look upon 'the flesh' for it's SINFUL NATURE, how is it that HE PERSONALLY 'took on' the flesh? How could this BE? For God to enter into something SO sinful seems like something that He would CERTAINLY find 'a way' around.

Where do you get the idea that his body was like ours?
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

God bless

 

[Solo]

I go by what the Book says, don't take my word for it, read below!

I am the LORD your God...You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. Hosea 13:4 (Now) we wait for the blessed hopeâ€â€the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

It's pretty simple when you have the Holy Spirit to point the truth out to us as believers, isn't it, Veritas?! :wink:

 

[jgredline]

It's pretty simple when you have the Holy Spirit to point the truth out to us as believers, isn't it, Veritas?! :wink:

Amen....It is very 8-) to have the Holy Spirit who reveals the truth about himself....

 

[Veritas]

Yes, if you haven't already guessed, I do love simple things. I do believe our Helper shows us simple truths!

 

[Imagican]

Where do you get the idea that his body was like ours?
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

God bless

Then I ask YOU Av, was Christ 'manifest' IN THE FLESH? And, is the FLESH NOT CORRUPT? And Christ OFFERED that HE HAS 'seen' the Father. Is it POSSIBLE for the 'flesh' to 'SEE' God? The Spirit of Christ was NOT 'man' PREVIOUS to His 'taking on the flesh'. Christ dwelt with God IN HEAVEN previous to His 'taking on the flesh'. Therefore it is OBVIOUS that He HAS not ONLY 'seen' God, but dwelt within His Presence. Christ KNOWS God, His Father. And now SITS at the Right Hand of God.

Where do I get the 'idea'. Well, let's see............... He ATE, He DRANK, He Slept, He cried, He was BORN, He AGED, He DIED. Sounds pretty MUCH like 'one of US'. I am quite sure that He LOOKED 'different' than myself, but that He was 'flesh' LIKE me is undeniable or His 'taking on the flesh' would have been to NO effect. If He were NOT made in an image that WAS corruptible, then He would NOT have NEED to 'overcome' SIN. And to 'be ABLE' to overcome, means that HE MUST HAVE BEEN BORN LIKE US. In a 'corruptible form' that HE WAS ABLE TO OVERCOME.

MEC

 

[Solo]

The flesh born of Adam is corrupt; the flesh born of God is not corrupt.

 

[AVBunyan]

The flesh born of Adam is corrupt; the flesh born of God is not corrupt.

Thanks Solo 8-)

 

[Imagican]

And I suppose that the 'flesh born of God' CAN TRULY DIE?

MEC

 

[AVBunyan]

And I suppose that the 'flesh born of God' CAN TRULY DIE?

MEC

God never said one would or could understand it all - we are just to believe the record.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.