Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[francisdesales]

I 'believe' that The Holy Bible IS the inspired Word of God.

Well, everyone, there you have it. Revelation 1:8 (PART of the Word of God) tells us that Jesus is Lord God. Either the Word of God is mistaken and Jesus is NOT Lord God, or you are wrong in your interpretation. There is no point in trying to say "Christians didn't have access to the Bible the first century" or any such nonsense. The very fact that these Christians ACCEPTED what was there as the Word of God - and continues to this day - then clearly, they agreed with what was in it.

People didn't learn about God from reading the Bible in the first century. They learned from preachers and teachers whom the Church sent out under the auspice of the Holy Spirit. The book of Revelation, once circulated, was accepted as God's Word because it was in line with the teachings already given. This is also true of the rest of the Bible. And this is why other writings were spurious. They were NOT in line with the teachings given. Thus, the Gospel of Thomas and other such writings were cast aside because they didn't match what the Apostles and their successors were teaching.

The Holy Bible 100 percent accurate? Won't say.

Then how can it be the Word of God? WHICH parts are accurate? The ones you like? NO! Either the entire Bible is God's Word (although we may not completely understand it all) or we have just cast doubt on the ENTIRE Bible. You can't pick and choose the "true" parts.

There have been CULTS MANY that USED the Holy Bible as their inspiration and teachings. OBVIOUSLY they didn't UNDERSTAND IT for they were NOT truly being 'led' by The Holy Spirit.

Finally doing some introspective thought, I see... good. Perhaps you will accept the Church's interpretation and give up trying to figure it out yourself.

This is one of the MAIN reasons that the CC used to deny the Word to the masses. For the FEAR that they would be 'misinterpreted' and therefore lead Christianity astray. Exactly what enabled LATER leaders of the CC to DO exactly that.

What do you think the Catholic Church should have done when people were making their own "bibles" and leaving out key verses or adding their own words? As defender of the Traditions given, both oral and written, it is the Church's responsibility to provide God's Word uncorrupted.

Thus, when Luther added "alone" to Romans 3:28, do you think the Catholic Church should have said nothing? If so, you obviously do not have any respect for God's revelation.

The rest of your post is a desperate attempt to admit you are not wrong.

Pray for guidance from God. He will open your heart if you accept what is in the Scriptures.

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

And I have NEVER stated that Christ was 'created' 'out of time'. I have indicated that there is scriptural evidence of 'when' Christ was 'begotten'. NOT A DATE, but CERTAINLY 'a time'.

Explain this contradiction... Either the Son was created and was not involved in ALL of creation or He wasn't created. Again, at what point did God exist without His Wisdom? What point of time can you say God had no wisdom?

Jesus being The Son DOES give Him an 'inheritance' of God, the Father. But, being an heir does NOT MAKE THE Heir the 'same' as the Father. And we kNOW that the Father IS God.

Being a natural Son of God means that He is of the same essence. Just as a human father gives his essence to his son, so much more does the Father beget the Son, giving the Son His essence.

We have witness of a 'voice' from HEAVEN offering that; 'This IS my beloved Son in whom '''''I''''' am well pleased'. Now, WHO is the Son, and WHO is 'well pleased'? Answer these and you HAVE answered the question that I continually raise.

Who is the Son? Jesus Christ. Who is the One well pleased? The Father. They are two different persons, both having the fullness of divinity. Are you trying to say that the Father cannot be pleased with His Wisdom? Are you never pleased with your own wisdom??? The difference between us and God in this respect is that God's Wisdom is personified, while for us, our wisdom is not a separate person that has the same essence.

That Christ IS a 'part' of God is without debate. Already said this a HUNDRED times. That there IS deity in Christ has been stated as many times as well. But this 'trinty' would have Christ BEING God.

BINGO! Christ is God. Christ is our Saviour. And the Scriptures interchangeably use God and Christ as Saviour and God.

There is ONLY ONE GOD. And, not matter how one 'twists' words, these are UNDENIABLE.

We do not believe in two or three gods. You are confusing "nature" with "person". Because men have one nature and one person individually, you appropriate that to God? You somehow think that God is just like men? God has told us that He is NOT like us. God somehow has three persons but one nature. There is only one divinity, one nature. Christ Himself told us that He can do NOTHING without the Father. NOTHING. Thus, how can there be more than one divine nature? We believe in one God, the God who created the universe. There were not two or three gods who got together. God sent out His Wisdom and His Spirit upon Creation.

God is love. HOW is God Love if He is solitary? Think about that. We believe in God consisting of Father, Son and Spirit, the latter two persons being a personification of God's own knowledge/wisdom and God's spirit/soul. This God exists in an eternal begetting of Love. That is Christian teaching for 2000 years.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

NO, it does NOT 'have to be' as you offer. It could be MANY 'different ways'. Just goes to show your limited ability in understanding.

But, to show you what you MISS;

There have been TIMES for which man took NO PART IN. This we KNOW. For we KNOW that 'before man' there was WAR in heaven. And YOU have NO evidence of what occured BEFORE this 'war'.

That is sufficient to SHOW that your understanding is 'tainted'.

Now, since you would 'like to be slick', YOU tell ME;

1 timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

You would state that Christ IS God. Yet Timothy here offers that this that YOU believe to BE IMPOSSIBLE. For he PLAINLY states that there IS but ONE God. And there is ONLY ONE mediator BETWEEN God and man, JESUS CHRIST. There is NO confusing what is offered here. It even goes on to state that 'this mediator', Jesus Christ, GAVE HIMSELF a 'ransom' for ALL. You would state that it was 'God in the flesh' that died on the 'cross'. WRONG. For we KNOW through scripture that this is NOT so. For we have Christ PRAYING to God while DYING on the cross. He was NOT praying to 'Himself'. And we KNOW that the Father IS GOD.

God 'SENT' Christ. Christ was NOT God in the flesh. For if this were true, then God would NOT NEED SEND Christ, but would have offered that HE CAME HIMSELF.

God DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS. God CANNOT die. And God cannot even LOOK upon the 'flesh'. It TOOK a 'SON' to do His bidding. And it took an OBEDIENT SON at that. For WE KNOW from scripture that Christ COULD have chosen 'differently'. Otherwise He could NOT have OVERCOME sin. To be UNABLE to sin CANNOT defeat sin. ONE MUST be ABLE to sin in order to OVERCOME IT.

Nice try though fran. I admire your pasion but do NOT accept your 'faith'. For yours is that of "man'' and has NO PLACE in 'truth', except as TAUGHT you by YOUR church.

MEC

 

[Free]

God 'SENT' Christ. Christ was NOT God in the flesh. For if this were true, then God would NOT NEED SEND Christ, but would have offered that HE CAME HIMSELF.

But that is precisely what we are saying - since Christ is God, God himself came in the flesh.

You would state that Christ IS God. Yet Timothy here offers that this that YOU believe to BE IMPOSSIBLE. For he PLAINLY states that there IS but ONE God. And there is ONLY ONE mediator BETWEEN God and man, JESUS CHRIST. There is NO confusing what is offered here. It even goes on to state that 'this mediator', Jesus Christ, GAVE HIMSELF a 'ransom' for ALL. You would state that it was 'God in the flesh' that died on the 'cross'. WRONG. For we KNOW through scripture that this is NOT so. For we have Christ PRAYING to God while DYING on the cross. He was NOT praying to 'Himself'. And we KNOW that the Father IS GOD.

As I have stated over and over ad nauseam - those who reject the Trinity have only a partial theology. Trinitarianism is an attempt to bring together all that the Scriptures reveal about Christ. If you deny this, then reconcile what you have just stated, well, everything you have stated, with the following passage:

16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesâ€â€all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

As you can see, your theology is only partial.

 

[jgredline]

Mec
In response to your post directed at me, where you are saying I am resorting to trickery, I see that Joe pretty much caught the same things I did as I am sure many of the other Christians who read it also did....

But there was a couple of things....First I noticed that you ignored this...

Mec
Let us suppose for a second you are right...and the folks were completely ignorant of the scriptures...

What then would be your excuse for passages such as Hebrews 1:8 where God himself refers to Jesus as God?

If I believed the way you do, I too would ignore that verse...but Praise be to God, he has revealed the truth about himself to me.....

Secondly, Unlike U i do believe the word of God to be inspired and you asked me a trick question....

Now, a question for YOU j;

Since you would choose 'trickery' to 'attempt' to 'prove a point', let me show you JUST HOW such 'trickery' can be used against "YOURSELF''. The question is THIS; YOU tell me and all the other people on this forum, WHAT version of the Holy Bible IS actually the INSPIRED Word of God? Which INTERPRETATION IS completely ACCURATE? And when you, (if you), answer this, PLEASE explain to us HOW you KNOW this to BE TRUE.

Ok... I will offer my opinion...But first, I will say this...The ones tricking you are Satans demons and they are doing a good job of it....Your preaching, teaching, and commenting is exactly why John wrote his epistles...to combat the Gnostics and heresy teachers of his time....What your saying is nothing new.....

Now let me answer this....trick question you have for me....
I believe the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures to be the inspired written words of God All mighty, ''Jesus the Christ''
This is the reason I studied Greek where I can read it pretty good...
I also took a class on biblical Hebrew, but addmitingly, I was in over my head and decided at the time to focus only Greek....Perhaps next year, I will again enroll in a Hebrew class....

 

[Imagican]

Mec
Let us suppose for a second you are right...and the folks were completely ignorant of the scriptures...

What then would be your excuse for passages such as Hebrews 1:8 where God himself refers to Jesus as God?

Here is another question for you. Do you believe the word of God to be inspired and with out error?

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

I will reply with the scipture in context. As you will NOTE above; Christ was 'made' better than the angels. Secondly, 'thou art MY SON, this day have "I" begotten thee. I will be to HIM a Father and HE shall be to ME 'A SON'.

I am confused as to WHERE these statements CAME FROM. These are NOT 'statements' made by God OR Christ, but QUESTIONS offered by the author of Hebrews.

So, the "OH God' could have been 'wishful' thinking brought about by ANY number of reasons. But, as one can PLAINLY SEE, IF this statement IS accurate, it would 'seemingly' VOID all that 'came before it'.

And when one reads the entire chapter, it seems quite BIZAAR that this statement is EVEN present. For it STATES what I have offered above PLUS that Christ would SIT at the RIGHT hand of God. NOT that He IS The Right Hand of God.

As we have discussed previous, I have LITTLE confidence in a 'statement' such as this. For it CONTRADICTS HUNDREDS of others that state JUST THE Oposite. And as offered; WHO is writting this is WHO that posed the question. It is NOT something that is offered AS a 'statement' of God, but a question.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

j,

Let me offer 'This' once again;

I have been 'led' to my understanding by NO man or 'written instruction' OTHER than the Holy Bible, KJV. I have read IN other versions, but CHOOSE the ONE that I 'feel' is MOST accurate.

IF there is 'something familiar' with my 'teachings' or offerings, it has NOTHING to do with 'anything' that I have been 'taught' by MAN.

Demons 'you' say. I say that demons would have NEVER offered me the 'life' that I have been 'given'. For IT WAS 'demons' that had led me down the path of destruction that I led for MOST of my life.

You see, I KNOW Satan. For IF I had a 'spiritual father' PREVIOUS to being 'saved', it WOULD have been HIM.

It WAS NOT an 'easy' task to take this 'lost sinner' and turn him into the man with which you speak at present.

I have 'STUDIED' your 'trinity' and it comes up SHORT. Not ONLY in it's 'method' of 'creation', but in it's very essence it teaches of 'philosophy and mysticism', MUCH more than the SIMPLICITY that IS Christ Jesus.

So, if it's demons that you will, they must be the SAME demons to which you 'say' were the REASON for the book of John. I don't know ANYTHING about the Gnostics other than the 'name'. I have had NO need to study what they believed. I have simply followed where I have been led through The Spirit.

And I can offer this j, 'straight IS the gate, and narrow the way, that leadeth unto LIFE and FEW there be that FIND it'. These words were IMPLANTED in my heart from the FIRST time that they were EVER read by myself. And with these words it became OBVIOUS WHY those that would attempt to TEACH me were teaching something that THE WORLD had 'seemed' to grasp. I was forced to WONDER about these very words until actually studying what we have been offered through scripture.

I do NOT simply 'read' the Word. I have studied and prayed and 'I' believe, have been LED through The Spirit to the understanding that I now possess. That it 'differs' from that of MANY is of NO consequence to me. Only in that it is reassuring to UNDERSTAND the quote that I offered above.

If one disagrees with what I offer, that is certainly their choice. I CAN say this though; I KNOW the miracles that have been wrought in MY LIFE. And I KNOW that these were WROUGHT by God. For there is NO WAY that Satan would offer me the understanding that I have of HIM. For the LAST thing in THIS WORLD that he would WISH is for someone like me to WARN others of his wiles.

While MANY seem to 'think' that Satan is 'some kind of JOKE', I can ASSURE you that HE IS NOT. He IS REAL and HE IS WORKING OVERTIME. Working towards a subversion of the TRUTH into a 'cunning LIE'. In order for the 'masses' to ACCEPT him upon his 'taking on the flesh', the WORLD will need to be ALMOST COMPLETELY in unison in their beliefs of God, Christ AND the WORD. That this is ALREADY in effect is QUITE evident in that those that 'claim' to be Christians are LITTLE MORE than 'minions' ushering in this NEW AGE in which we live, (for a moment).

And, to SEE the EXTENT to which he has gained POWER over the churches is ABSOLUTELY mind boggling, (to me). Fun and games folks; UNTIL it's TOO LATE.

Itching ears are what we were warned would usher in this 'new age' religion that MOST follow now. DESIRING to worship THEIR WAY and 'themselves' more than God's way or Our Creator. The 'creature' IS worshiped OVER the Father and it will ONLY get worse. I am BUT a messenger that would WARN any that would listen.

I have witnessed 'your truth' j, I have RARELY offered personal attack against that which you speak. I will QUICKLY attempt to correct you when I 'see' that you are mistaken. But rarely will you be 'able' to 'tempt' me to stumble through anger. But I must WONDER what spirit one follows that WOULD offer PERSONAL attack and ridicule rather than wholesome words of UNDERSTANDING and encouragement.

And you know what? I have found this type of behavior PREVALENT among those that 'believe' as you do. They seem BENT on 'separating themselves' FROM ANYTHING close to what I offer. And I can TELL by the replies that are made that MOST actually REALIZE that there is MUCH 'truth' in my statements and offerings but they are 'somehow' COMPELLED to 'speak out against them ANYWAY'.

So, while I AM the 'odd man out' MOST of the time; it's NOT TOO LATE FOLKS. So long as there is 'breath in one's nostrils' there is STILL TIME to prepare for what is COMING. Don't get 'caught out in the rain without an umbrella' is ALL I can suggest. Turn away from that which is NOT prudent and accept what God has to offer. He will CERTAINLY not offer what your 'flesh' desires, but He can offer EXACTLY what He has PROMISED. Anything else is TOTALLY temporary.

So j, demons is it? You know, I started a thread on demons and was told by MOST of the participants that demons have NO effect or influence on those 'born again'. SEE the extent to which SATAN has laid waste to the understanding of those that would 'claim' Christ as their Savior? So confused and ignorant that they would IGNORE scripture that PLAINLY offers that EVEN CHRISTIANS MUST 'STAY IN THE SPIRIT' or suffer the consequences of demonic possession. And HOW could this BE if they TRULY ARE 'led' by The Spirit? For the Spirit WILL NOT LEAVE US IGNORANT of THAT which is of SUCH IMPORT. And MOST that are THE MOST adamant in this understanding; of 'just how HARMLESS demons are to those 'born again', are the SAME one's that would INSIST on this 'trinity'. Coincidence? Maybe. But most likely the TWO ideas run 'hand n hand' for a REASON. And I'll leave it up to YOU to discern what that 'reason' IS.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Well, the only thing I can say to that is simply this. It is your opinion and I respect the fact that you hold to it...

I was also not aware to my recollection of a thread on demons, for I agree with you....If you will direct me to the link, great...

 

[Imagican]

j,

If I recall correctly it was named, ''Do you have demons''. It may have been deleted. I don't remember. But what I DO remember is that MOST that offered posts INSISTED that a 'Christian' CANNOT be influenced by demons. In TOTAL contradiction to EVERY reference to demons in the NT.

For we HAVE The parable of the man 'cleaning up his house'. And when the demon returned he brought many others with him'. A prime indication that the 'man cleaning his house' was indicative of a 'man accepting Christ into his heart'. And what does it say about the FINAL condition of the man?

We are ALSO told to 'put on the WHOLE armour' to be 'ABLE' to defend ourselves against Satan and his demons. This was NOT written to the unsaved, but TO the 'saved'.

I'll see if I can find it if it's still there.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

The REASON that Savior IS interchangable between God and Christ is: There is ONLY ONE capable of OFFERING Salvation. This is God. That the Salvation was offered 'through His Son' CERTAINLY allows the Son to ALSO bare this 'title'.

Wrong, IMagican

Again, who calls Moses the Saviour of the Isrealites? No one. God works THROUGH people - true. We do not call these people "Saviour". That title is reserved for God, according to Scriptures. Thus, again, you are wrong in your "interchangeable" titles.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Just goes to show your limited ability in understanding.

True, I have a limited ability to understand your machinations and false teachings and how you justify them in the face of clear-cut Scriptural verses.

There have been TIMES for which man took NO PART IN. This we KNOW. For we KNOW that 'before man' there was WAR in heaven. And YOU have NO evidence of what occured BEFORE this 'war'.

How does that have any bearing on the fact that Scriptures says that ONLY GOD was present BEFORE creation began??? How could God "create" His Wisdom BEFORE TIME BEGAN???

Time is a unit of measure of change. Thus, God, being changeless, is outside of time and is not subject to change. Thus, ALL that God is continues to be - thus, His Wisdom was present BEFORE Creation and must BE God.

Now, since you would 'like to be slick',

That is totally uncalled for...

I am not being "slick". I am merely pointing out what Christians have believed since the beginning. It is not hidden or being "slick" by presenting this which has been taught from the beginning. YOUR innovations are "slick" because they twist the meaning of the Scriptures and ignore the parts you don't like.

1 timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jesus is God AND man. Haven't you heard of the Incarnation? Oh, yea, you don't believe that, either...

If Jesus is God and man, that makes Him a legitimate intermediator between God and man...

God 'SENT' Christ. Christ was NOT God in the flesh. For if this were true, then God would NOT NEED SEND Christ, but would have offered that HE CAME HIMSELF.

God sent His Wisdom personified in the form of human flesh. You cannot understand this because you are having a difficult time realizing that the Son IS WISDOM ITSELF! If part of you became personified, couldn't YOU send it forth???

God DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS. God CANNOT die. And God cannot even LOOK upon the 'flesh'. It TOOK a 'SON' to do His bidding. And it took an OBEDIENT SON at that. For WE KNOW from scripture that Christ COULD have chosen 'differently'. Otherwise He could NOT have OVERCOME sin. To be UNABLE to sin CANNOT defeat sin. ONE MUST be ABLE to sin in order to OVERCOME IT.

The Son became man WITHOUT laying aside His divinity. He continued to have the divine nature AND He took on a human nature. What God does, Jesus Christ could and did do. What man does, Jesus Christ did - with the exception of sin. Thus, we can say that the person Jesus Christ, being God and man, died - and thus, in a manner, God experienced death through His human nature.

Nice try though fran. I admire your pasion but do NOT accept your 'faith'.

It is not "my faith". It is the faith given to me through the Apostles, given by Jesus Christ.

Regards

 

[stranger]

Imagican wrote:

There is MUCH indication that Christ WAS 'created'.

If you believe this and worship Christ - where does that leave you?
If you don't worship Christ where does that leave you?

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus Christ IS The Agent of The Word of God. I don't know WHERE you get this 'God without His Wisdom' from.

Jesus IS the Word of God. This Word, this Wisdom, is manifested in the flesh in Jesus Christ.

There was NO NEED of The Word PREVIOUS to 'creation' of man. For the ANGELS NEEDED no mediator between THEM AND GOD.

God had no need of Wisdom until He created man? WOW!

There is MUCH indication that Christ WAS 'created'. I am WELL aware that a 'belief' in Christ AS God eliminates this 'possibility'. But we have Christ WITNESSING the FALL of Satan but NO mention of Christ being present upon the 'creation' of Satan.

The incarnation was an event in time. However, the person who BECAME what we call Jesus Christ and His hypostatic union pre-existed and was with God from the beginning - before time, as John 1 and other verses relate.

I think this is becoming a colossal waste of time...

You have hardened your heart against God's Word, as well as His Spirit. Nothing more I can say is going to change that.

As such, I wish you well as I celebrate God's Son rising from the dead this weekend. Whatever you do or pray to or whatever, heaven help you.

Adios.

 

[jgredline]

I wish you well as I celebrate God's Son rising from the dead this weekend.

Amen to that...

 

[Free]

There is MUCH indication that Christ WAS 'created'. I am WELL aware that a 'belief' in Christ AS God eliminates this 'possibility'. But we have Christ WITNESSING the FALL of Satan but NO mention of Christ being present upon the 'creation' of Satan.

Then reconclie this with the passage from my previous post.

 

[Solo]

There is MUCH indication that Christ WAS 'created'. I am WELL aware that a 'belief' in Christ AS God eliminates this 'possibility'. But we have Christ WITNESSING the FALL of Satan but NO mention of Christ being present upon the 'creation' of Satan.

When you become born again, born of God you will be able to see what the Scripture says, and hear the Holy Spirit teaching you the truth. Until then you are scraping for truth in the physical plane of existance.

The following Scripture shows that Jesus Christ created all things in heaven and on earth.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:16-18

 

[Imagican]

And Solo,

I offer that heaven can have TWO definitions. One, the 'universe', two, the abode of God and the angels. It would seem that one is a 'physical' location, the other; a physical place.

Since we HAVE Christ made above the angels. And MANY other passages that state similar attributes, it becomes apparent that for these statements to BE true WITHOUT contradiction to what YOU offered, IT MUST BE 'something different' than your 'understanding'.

I do NOT deny the scripture that you offered. What I DO is believe that it's MEANING is 'different' than what you offer it to mean.

Perhaps it deals with what I have offered SO MANY times before; the Bible was written FOR man, PERTAINING to man. That would LEAVE much that we are NOT privileged to at the present.

In REFERENCE to man, Christ IS eternal. But perhaps when compared to eternity, His existence IS limited.

The 'truth' CANNOT contradict itself. There is NO possible way that The Word CAN be the 'truth' if there is contradiction. Therefore, what may SEEM to be contradiction MUST be 'misunderstanding'.

What I offer is that; Christ IS the Son. From ALL indication He has ALWAYS 'been' the Son. This places The Father ABOVE and 'before' the Son. If what I am offering here IS TRUE, then what others have accepted as 'teachings' from their 'churches' IS WRONG.

And, if this 'conception' of Christ, as taught by the 'churches', IS wrong, then it impedes MUCH understanding of 'other' topics. There is MUCH 'speculation' in the 'churches' that are NOT definite 'understanding, but more like 'guesses'. Perhaps the REASON for this 'lack of understanding' is based on incorrect 'speculation'. And this speculation simply being passed 'on through the ages'.

Solo,

Do you 'believe' that it's possible that the Catholic Church may have made 'mistakes' in their interpretation of The Word? Do you 'believe' that it's possible that their 'beliefs' could be askew of the 'truth'? Now, how about the Baptists? Is their 'understanding' complete and accurate? Do you realize that the CC has influenced EVERY MAJOR denomination? Therefore, if they GOT ONE CRUCIAL point WRONG, could it NOT have influenced their ENTIRE DOCTRINE?

In other words, if ONE SINGLE CRUCIAL piece of information was 'missed' or 'misinterpreted', lost or OVERLOOKED, how could their 'overall' doctrine BE correct? Like trying to 'build' an engine that one has NEVER seen before. ALL the pieces are present but there is NO instruction as to HOW these pieces FIT together. What are the ODDS against one being ABLE to 'build' this engine CORRECTLY. You know, like EVERY time one works on something it seems as if there are EXTRA pieces 'left over'. And ONE crucial piece is all it takes for this engine to NEVER RUN.

And IF this 'mistake' is made in the VERY beginning, no matter WHAT one does to 'fix' the problem, the ONLY way to do it is to take EVERYTHING BACK apart and START OVER from step ONE.

I believe that we have VERY MUCH information that indicates that this is EXACTLY what was done. From the INCEPTION of the CC, they MISSED crucial pieces of the TRUTH. Can't answer the 'why' of it, but 'perhaps' it was due to NOT STARTING OVER at the VERY beginning. Simply ACCEPTING Christ into their PREVIOUS religions. Maybe it had to do with these being TOO wise for their own good. So wise, in fact, that they were UNABLE to truly 'let go' of what they had learned PREVIOUS and simply starting over with NOTHING other than God and Christ. Can't answer ALL the questions involved here. Don't even NEED to. What IS NEEDED is the understanding that they were 'mistaken', not the REASON FOR CHOOSING the path that they CHOSE.

Anyone that has done even a cursory study of the Protestant faith will QUICKLY realize that they were NOTHING other than 'off-shoots' of the CC. They changed a 'few' things that they disagreed with, but their BASIC understanding was the SAME as they had been taught for Hundreds upon Hundreds of years.

I propose that to ELIMINATE what 'baggage' that was 'carried over', one MUST 'start over'. And this is WHAT was done with EVERY CONVERT that EVER existed PREVIOUS to the introduction of the CC. READ, my friend, READ. The FIRST Christians were NOT taught INTRICATE doctrinal messages BEFORE being 'saved'. These simply heard SIMPLE words of Hope and 'dropped to their knees' inviting Christ INTO their hearts. Convicted BY THE SPIRIT without the NEED for specific 'man-made' doctrine to convince them of the Loving Grace of their God and His Son.

The 'legalism' of man has NEVER saved a 'single soul'. His 'man-made' doctrines can do NOTHING but lead other men in the 'desires' of the flesh. Carnal by nature, men are UNABLE to 'lead' others into 'truth'. It can ONLY be done through The Spirit. That IS the WHY of the Body. Each member has it's OWN place and function.

Now, WHERE IS THE BODY TODAY? The CC? The Baptists? The Methodists? The independents? I propose that NONE of these IS The Body. There may CERTAINLY BE members of the Body contained within all of the above, but the institutions contain NO SINGLE BODY. For MOST that attend AnY of the above offered are simply 'playing the game' with little or NO true understanding of God or His Son.

There can BE no TRUE Body without being ONE in Christ. And one cannot be ONE with Christ WITHOUT KNOWING Christ. IF the CC MISSED the 'truth' of the 'WHO' of Christ, then their ability to be ONE with Him was impeded from the START. And this IS what was passed down from generation to generation EVEN INTO the PROTESTANT FAITH.

There is CERTAINLY 'a body', but THE BODY cannot exist WITHOUT KNOWING 'WHO' Christ IS. And THIS is what I have attempted to 'point out' since my 'coming to this forum'.

In my FIRST THREAD; 'Trinity' Biblically sound, or Catholic baggage', I 'attempted' to SHOW how the Catholic Church 'missed' some of the MOST crucial teachings of Christ. How they MISS guessed the TRUTH and, instead, followed their OWN WAY. How they DID NOT; 'start over', but simply incorporated the 'name' Christ INTO their previous pagan doctrine and ritual. Thus, perpetuating 'man-made' religion in the 'guise of' Christianity.

So, I will rest here. ASSURED that what I offer IS The TRUTH. The WHOLE TRUTH? I am NOT such a fool as to 'believe' this EVEN POSSIBLE. But ENOUGH of the TRUTH for ONE to FIND it. Enough to 'point one' in the RIGHT direction if they SO CHOOSE to follow. And the words that I offer CAN bring one to a fount of water that will FULFILL one's thirst. To the manna that 'fell from heaven'. Once eaten, one will NEVER hunger again for 'food', except that offered through The Word and The Spirit of God. Peace with Our Lord and His Father. But contention WITH THE WORLD in ways that one CANNOT imagine. But the STRENGTH to endure REGARDLESS. And MOST OF ALL, my friends, UNDERSTANDING that MOST CERTAINLY 'differs' from that which the world would 'choose'.

MEC

 

[Solo]

MEC,
You write alot, but say very little.

The Word of God cannot be changed by any man, and it is interpreted to us by God Himself. All men are liars and God Almighty is Truth. It is too bad that you have to twist the Word of God in order for it to align with your wrong interpretation.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:16-18

 

[Vic C.]

... I offer that heaven can have TWO definitions. One, the 'universe', two, the abode of God and the angels. It would seem that one is a 'physical' location, the other; a physical place.

Please explain this. I understand that when 'heavens' is used, it could mean what you are saying. Also, couldn't a phsical location and a physical place mean the same thing?

Since we HAVE Christ made above the angels. And MANY other passages that state similar attributes, it becomes apparent that for these statements to BE true WITHOUT contradiction to what YOU offered, IT MUST BE 'something different' than your 'understanding'.

I do NOT deny the scripture that you offered. What I DO is believe that it's MEANING is 'different' than what you offer it to mean.

What if it isn't us that lack understanding about the nature of a Triune God? After all, it is you that keeps on insisting we make it out to be three seperate Gods, when that is NOT what we believe. You also insist it is a Roman Catholic doctrine despite history AND the many attempts here to show you it predates anything RC.

Perhaps it deals with what I have offered SO MANY times before; the Bible was written FOR man, PERTAINING to man. That would LEAVE much that we are NOT privileged to at the present.

Good point! That puts you on level gound with us now, doesn't it?

In REFERENCE to man, Christ IS eternal. But perhaps when compared to eternity, His existence IS limited.

? ? ? ? ? You are talking in circles now.

The 'truth' CANNOT contradict itself. There is NO possible way that The Word CAN be the 'truth' if there is contradiction. Therefore, what may SEEM to be contradiction MUST be 'misunderstanding'.

Who sees contradiction... not us? I too, see no sense in continuing this debate. It is contrary to our SoF and because of that, it is in voiolation of our ToS. We're not backing down because we can't defend ourselves; it is becoming something like showing Stevie Wonder a photo and asking him to describe it.

 

[jgredline]

it is becoming something like showing Stevie Wonder a photo and asking him to describe it.

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