Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[jgredline]

God never said one would or could understand it all - we are just to believe the record.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

EXACTLY RIGHT !!!!!!!! AV

To many folks feel they need to understand the ways of God when nobody knows the mind of God....

 

[jgredline]

I 'started' to laugh when I read this, Mutz. But, in defense of Solo; I 'believe' that Solo is 'closer' to an 'ability' to understand 'truth' than MANY that participate in this forum.

Solo reminds me ALOT of myself. We are BOTH pretty hard-headed. We are BOTH quite passionate in our 'beliefs'. But he HAS shown that 'trinity' or a 'belief' that Jesus IS God is NOT paramount to an acceptance of God or His Son. Many are SO 'caught up' in doctrine that they can't even 'reason' any longer. Attempting to usurp the authority of God and replace it with their OWN. Solo has even taken heat at times for his open admission that BELIEVING that Chirst IS God is NOT necessary for one to 'be saved'. Many would deny our Salvation UNLESS we openly STATE that Jesus IS God. Solo simply states that ONCE one IS saved they WILL come to the knowledge that Christ IS God. Big difference here. Gotta give credit where credit IS DUE.

So, while Solo WILL 'jump right in' with a 'slick question' or comment, he has shown over and over that he DOES have the capacity to LEARN. And, have even heard him admit to mistakes at times, (he he he).

MEC

Mec
While Solo is more than capable of defending himself, I have read enough of Solos's post to know when you have ''purposely'' taken him out of context...
This should not surprise him or anyone, because you do the same with the scriptures.

Here is Solos exact quote

''Jesus is God and the knowledge or understanding of this fact is not necessary for one to become saved, but after one is saved, the understanding that Jesus is God is evidence of one's salvation.''

Can you see the difference....I agree with this statement as well as many other folks...The fact that you don't see Jesus as God tells me that your spiritual eyes have not opened and I pray they do.....

 

[Solo]

Mec
While Solo is more than capable of defending himself, I have read enough of Solos's post to know when you have ''purposely'' taken him out of context...
This should not surprise him or anyone, because you do the same with the scriptures.

Here is Solos exact quote

''Jesus is God and the knowledge or understanding of this fact is not necessary for one to become saved, but after one is saved, the understanding that Jesus is God is evidence of one's salvation.''

Can you see the difference....I agree with this statement as well as many other folks...The fact that you don't see Jesus as God tells me that your spiritual eyes have not opened and I pray they do.....

Thanks JG. All who profess being born again but do not know Jesus as God Almighty are mistaken. I did not believe that Jesus was God until after I was born again. Many others whom I witnessed born again have the same testimony.

 

[Imagican]

Not to 'take away' ANYTHING from what I previously stated, BUT; Solo, how exactly does one 'witness' ANOTHER that is 'saved'.

I 'assume' by your statement that you can 'tell' that I couldn't POSSIBLY 'be saved' for you 'have' the 'secret tool' that enables YOU to determine WHO is and WHO isn't 'saved'?

I didn't realize until coming in 'contact' with so many others that there could be SO much dependant upon the 'beliefs' of 'man' concerning Salvation. I simply 'believed' that those that ARE 'saved' KNOW it and that THIS is NOT something that can be 'determined' by the 'beliefs' of another.

You guys have CERTAINLY enlightened me to this concept. For what I have accepted of God had NOTHING to do with a 'single one of you'. Didn't even know of 'your existence' previous to coming to this forum. Yet, is 'seems' as if there is some sort of a 'monopoly' that has been 'created' that IS able to determine WHO is and WHO isn't 'saved'. Too bad I didn't find you good folks thirty years ago or so. I could have forgone what I have been through and simply accepted what YOU have to offer. Who NEEDS God, right?

So, I guess Mutz was 'righer' than I 'thought' he was. Not only are those that 'believe' Jesus IS God able to 'determine' who is or isn't 'saved', but you DO KNOW the 'mind of God'.

And Solo, all I was offering is that I have witnessed your comments stating that you DID NOT believe that one MUST accept that Christ IS God in order to receive Salvation. Guess you would choose to 'back track' on that one eh? I didn't 'change' anything that you yourself have stated. I simply offered it in your defense. I know that you have also stated that ONCE one is 'saved' that they WILL come to 'such an understanding', BUT, you have openly admitted that you did NOT think a belief in Christ AS God was NECESSARY for one to 'be saved', (one of the 'curses' of having a pretty sharp memory I guess).

MEC

 

[cyberjosh]

'Jesus is God and the knowledge or understanding of this fact is not necessary for one to become saved, but after one is saved, the understanding that Jesus is God is evidence of one's salvation.

Ok I understand what you are saying, that perhaps not everyone will fully realize the diety of Christ immediately upon salvation. That makes a certain amount of sense. However let's take the situation of the Jews into account. Jesus' diety (according to John's Gospel) was a stumbling block to the Jews thus prevented them from recieving salvation, so at point does Jesus' diety become an important issue then - if it can also become an issue before salvation - and infact prevent salvation if misunderstood?

~Josh

 

[Solo]

Ok I understand what you are saying, that perhaps not everyone will fully realize the diety of Christ immediately upon salvation. That makes a certain amount of sense. However let's take the situation of the Jews into account. Jesus' diety (according to John's Gospel) was a stumbling block to the Jews thus prevented them from recieving salvation, so at point does Jesus' diety become an important issue then - if it can also become an issue before salvation - and infact prevent salvation if misunderstood?

~Josh

The stumbling block is that Jesus is the one and only Christ. The Jews unbelief was hindered by a lack of belief that Jesus was the one sent to redeem and save mankind. When Jesus was teaching them they disregarded that He was the Son of God, and if they believed in what He was teaching, they would have to change their wants and ways.

I was confirmed in a Lutheran church. The name of the church was Trinity Lutheran. I did not believe in the Trinity. I knew that Jesus was sent by God but I did not believe that Jesus was God. I did not believe that one should pray to Jesus, but should pray only to God the Father as Jesus gave us the example.

After I became born again, instigated by the Holy Spirit, I then came to know that Jesus is LORD GOD. Many people who I have witnessed to and have become born again, did not believe that Jesus was God, but that He was the Son of God. After they were born again, they too came to know Jesus is God.

The spiritual things of God cannot be known by the natural man. They are foolishness to him. Until they become quickened by the Holy Spirit, can the natural man know the spiritual things of God. I knew Jesus as the Son of God, but I did not know Jesus as Almighty God until I was born again.

Did Thomas know Jesus as God before or after he believed?

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Thomas was SO confused that He didn't EVEN recognize Christ AS CHRIST. Was SO lacking in The Spirit that the Spirit couldn't even convince him WITHOUT actually SEEING. So, using him as a 'basis' for 'understanding' is NOT wise. This was a man who's example was one NOT to be emulated. The story we have WOULD have a 'message'. And that message would be to HAVE FAITH. And here is a man that LACKED this VERY essential 'thing'; FAITH. And AFTER 'doubting' that Christ was EVEN Jesus Christ; standing before him, it was ONLY THEN, after having it PROVEN to him that the man in doubt WAS indeed The Christ, ONLY then did he speak the words that he spoke. And recognizing that Christ has RISEN, there is LITTLE doubt that he was OVERWHELMED and recognized that ONLY through the power of God could Christ be standing before him.

Out of ALL scripture that we have, it is UNWISE to take ONE line that CONTRADICTS hundreds and hundreds of others, and form one's 'doctrine' based on this ONE LINE.

I have KNOWN as MANY that 'once believed' in 'trinty' that ONCE they were 'truly' saved, turned from it in favor of 'truth'. I believe you have MET one of these individuals, (at LEAST). Mutz states that he was once enticed to accept this 'doctrine of trinity'. Yet, upon being 'truly saved', he turned away from it in favor of 'solid words' and the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles.

You keep saying this over and over as if this is some sort of PROOF that 'trintiy' exists in God's Word. JUST because there are MANY that accept it, (even though they don't even understand it), does NOT make it 'valid' by any stretch of the imagination. For we KNOW that the entire WORLD will accept the 'anti-Christ' when he rears his UGLY head. And WHO do you readcon they will BELIEVE that he is?

Solo, ever make 'educated GUESSES' as to WHO the 'false prophet' will BE? The 'false prophet' that will LEAD the 'religious folks' in the end to WORSHIP the 'anti-Christ'? WHO do you 'think' the 'false prophet' will BE?
Now, take that and use IT to discern even the REMOTE possibility that the 'false prophet' would bring about ANYTHING of 'truth'.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Imagican,

Consider the following...


But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 17-25


Clearly, God is our Savior, our ONLY Savior. By no other are we saved but by God. Now, if you take the time to read the Scriptures, ALL the NT, you will find an interesting statement made...

Along with the last line from my quote above (Jude 25), the Scriptures recognize that God is our Savior...
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For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour 1 Tim 2:3
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But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Titus 1:3
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Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. Titus 2:10
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But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared Titus 3:4
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Paul, in these very same writings, ALSO writes the following...

To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4
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Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2:13
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Peter also makes the connection...

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1


If our saviour is identified as God, and our saviour is also identified as Jesus Christ, then it follows that Jesus Christ IS God.

If the hard-hearted Jews recognized what Jesus was claiming to be and wanted to stone Him for "making Himself to be equal to God", then perhaps you may not have the Spirit abiding within you - as the above citation from Jude suggests.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

God IS our Creator. God IS our GUIDE. God IS our Savior. Now, the important question is NOT what God IS, but HOW God IS.

God chose MOSES to 'free' HIS people. The people WERE freed BY God, THROUGH Moses. Get it?

God DESTROYED TWO CITIES. These two cities WERE destroyed BY God THROUGH the angels He 'sent' to DO HIS BIDDING.

God has DESTROYED MANY of His enemies. Many of the enemies of God have been destroyed BY God THROUGH 'other people'.

God has USED MANY of His 'creations' to PRODUCE that which HE desires. In order to BE an 'example' to the KNOWN world, God HARDENED pharaohs heart. God USED pharaoh to accomplish HIS will.

God IS our Savior. But the MEANS of which He USED to 'bring about' our Salvation WAS/IS His Son; Jesus Christ. And through obedience Christ DID become our Savior. The LAMB of God. SPOTLESS. Sinless. The PERFECT sacrifice offered BY GOD, in His Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Many confuse exactly WHAT the word Lord means. it means NOTHING other than 'leader' or, for a more precise meaning; 'KING'. It has been KNOWN by God's chosen that was 'coming' A KING of Israel that would be ABOVE all previous kings. One SENT by God to bring into being, a 'righteous' Kingdom. That King came and was NOT accepted by the MAJORITY of God's chosen. They were looking for a 'powerful LEADER' that would 'strike down' their enemies and make THEM 'THE' Kingdom of significance on this planet.

They were wrong in but ONE aspect of this understanding. The Kingdom of God IS 'within' those that 'accepted' the King that was sent. Our Lord, Jesus Christ IS this King.

God WAS the King of Israel for many centuries. Up UNTIL these people decided that a Spiritual King was 'not GOOD enough for them'. At this point God GAVE them a 'physical' king. And this is HOW they lived for many centuries after. Up UNTIL the advent of Christ. At this point they were GIVEN their ETERNAL King. They just didn't 'recognize' Him. GOD did NOT 'become' their 'King again', God SENT HIS SON to BE their King.

When Christ RETURNS to this planet, in the flesh' He WILL be our 'Physical as well as our Spiritual KING. An intercessor between US and God, our Father. While Christ IS our King IN THE FLESH, God will STILL BE the Father IN HEAVEN. And Christ will STILL BE His Son.

That Christ is a 'part' of God is UNDENIABLE. That Christ IS the AGENT of God is UNDENIABLE. That Christ IS the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF GOD is UNDENIABLE. That Christ IS the Lamb of God is UNDENIABLE. But that Christ IS God? This would make TWO Gods, for we KNOW that Christ is a SEPARATE entity than His Father.

'Trinity' teaches 'personage'. Huh? Why? Why would we NEED to 'create' an understanding that was NEVER offered? We have been TOLD that Christ IS the Son of God. We have been TOLD that God IS The Father of Christ. These are WITHOUT debate. These ARE 'TRUTH'. God the Father IS a FACT. God the Son was a 'created' title. Created by 'MEN'. In order to 'explain' something UNEXPLAINABLE, men created, (through philosophy, mythology, and mysticism), a CONCEPT to DEFINE God in a 'way' that was PLEASING to their 'carnal' minds. This concept IS 'Trinity'. A 'concept' that DID NOT EXIST at the 'time of Christ'. A concept that took hundreds of years to be 'introduced' into Christianity. And hundreds more to be refined into the 'trinity' of TODAY.

Now, how could this BE? How is it that those that actually WALKED with Christ has NO CONCEPTION of this 'trinity'? How do you reacon 'men' were MORE able to define God and His Son than GOD AND HIS SON? The apostles NEVER taught a 'Trinity'. NEVER. Yet you would tell me that God, (Christ), inspired those AFTER His visit in the flesh, AFTER His DIRECT disciples were DEAD, to 'UNDERSTAND' this 'thing' that had NEVER been mentioned by God, Christ OR His apostles? I guess you would have me 'believe' that God is INDEED mysterious beyond comprehension? What kind of God would by SO mysterious that we cannot even be 'SURE' what He IS or WHO He IS or what He WANTS for us? That is CERTAINLY some 'mystical' god that I do NOT even KNOW. Some UNAPPROACHABLE mystical being that is NOT able to be KNOWN. One that is UNABLE to be LOVED as He LOVES. A mystical being that sounds MUCH like MOST Of the OTHER gods of the Romans and Greeks.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

God IS our Creator. God IS our GUIDE. God IS our Savior. Now, the important question is NOT what God IS, but HOW God IS.

God chose MOSES to 'free' HIS people. The people WERE freed BY God, THROUGH Moses. Get it?

Does anyone call Moses a Saviour? Of course God works through people. But in the end, we realize that it is GOD who does the work.

When the Scriptures call Jesus Saviour, that should give you cause to rethink your idea that God "merely" worked through Jesus as He did through Moses. Moses is a type of Christ - but in the end, he is a tool of God. Jesus is not spoken of this way in the Bible.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

I HAVE read the scriptures. And IN THESE scriptures I HAVE READ that God is NOT ONLY MY GOD, but the GOD OF JESUS CHRIST AS WELL. And if you have read the Word, then YOU TOO know this.

Jesus Christ IS the Son of God. Do you DENY THIS? If so, then you deny Christ.

Your Christ and 'my' Christ may VERY WELL BE 'different' Christs. For YOU state that Mary IS the MOTHER of God. I do NOT know this God. For the God that I KNOW has NO mother that we have been informed of.

So, it is of NO consequence to ME if you fail to recognize Christ AS the Son of God. I would OFFER you the 'truth', but IF you fail to accept it, that is on YOU.

The God that I KNOW is the Father of Christ. The Father of the Christ that I know IS God. These things are EVIDENT to ANY that have READ the Word and have accepted Christ into their hearts.

I persecute NO ONE for their beliefs. I leave this sort of judgement up to the God of my fathers as well as MY God. For it is HE that is able to perform such NOT MYSELF.

Mine is to simply offer what has been offered to ME. And I offer it FREELY. I KNOW 'who' I once was and WHO I am NOW. And I KNOW that this 'change' could NOT have been possible without MY God bringing it to fruition.

Now, I KNOW that there are gods MANY. That there ARE many that man has 'created', and MANY that existed since the dawn of time. These gods I do NOT 'know'. I know OF THEM, but do NOT 'know' them. And I also know that Satan will do WHATEVER he CAN in order to have man worship HIM in the 'guise' of God. His disguises are LIMITLESS. But ANYTHING that contradicts scripture is NOT OF the God that I know.

What IS evident is that those that worship IDOLS do NOT know the ONE TRUE GOD. For the ONE TRUE GOD commanded that this NOT BE DONE. And turning ANYTHING into a 'god' that is NOT God IS idolotry and Spiritual ADULTERY.

I have 'created' NOTHING. I have simply accepted what has been offered and pass it on. My conscience is CLEAR as far as what I offer concerning the relationship of Father and Son. For this I KNOW. Otherwise the Bible is NOTHING but a 'book' for the reading and has NO bearing on 'truth'.

You would insist that The Son is NOT REALLY the Son. But turn the Son into the Father for your OWN sake. Why? You tell me. You would also say that 'begotten' doesn't REALLY mean 'begotten'. Hmmm. Make up your OWN definitions to words such as Father, Son, begotten, just a little bit 'bigger' step to create your 'own gods'.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

I HAVE read the scriptures. And IN THESE scriptures I HAVE READ that God is NOT ONLY MY GOD, but the GOD OF JESUS CHRIST AS WELL. And if you have read the Word, then YOU TOO know this.

Naturally. The Father and Son share a particular relationship, being that the Son was begotten from the Father - outside of time. Know that the Father and the Son have the same essence - and are both divine. But while Christ took on the form of man, He certainly COULD say that the Father was "My" God.

Your Christ and 'my' Christ may VERY WELL BE 'different' Christs. For YOU state that Mary IS the MOTHER of God. I do NOT know this God. For the God that I KNOW has NO mother that we have been informed of.

I have come to realize that our ideas of God are quite different. I am not quite sure WHAT you think the Son of God means - if He is not God. Clearly, before Creation, ONLY God existed. You admit that the Son was not created within time. Thus, again, you seem to contradict yourself.

What you need to realize is that there are some theological issues that men will NEVER fully understand. Theology, the understanding of God, will always entail mystery. Your "worship" of the "god of reason" is trying to eliminate this idea. How are you going to KNOW everything there is to know about God - UNLESS He reveals something about Himself? We are dependent upon Him for knowledge. He has revealed Himself as a Trinity in Sacred Scriptures and through the Living Church that God established. Your efforts to "tidy up the loose ends" will never be successful because, quite simply, we do not have the capacity to fully understand a Being who is totally transcendant and NOT available to our senses.

So, it is of NO consequence to ME if you fail to recognize Christ AS the Son of God. I would OFFER you the 'truth', but IF you fail to accept it, that is on YOU.

DON'T put words in my mouth. I never said such blasphemy. I recognize Jesus as the Christ and as God...

You are the one who is trying to separate the two.

The God that I KNOW is the Father of Christ. The Father of the Christ that I know IS God. These things are EVIDENT to ANY that have READ the Word and have accepted Christ into their hearts.

All you are doing is avoiding my points, as usual. If we have only one Saviour, Who is called God in the Bible - AND Jesus is ALSO called our "Lord and Savior", or "Our God and Saviour", it is you who appears to have a problem with accepting Christ into your heart. Why can't you respond? Does your "search for truth" entail ignoring things that disagree with you?

Now, ANOTHER question. How can you accept Christ into your heart, if Christ is not God? I am curious on how this man or whatever you think he is part of you or abides in you??? How exactly can He say "unless I abide in you, you can do nothing good?" That sounds like another perogative of God that this Jesus owns but you have not taken into account in your theological "system".

Curious

 

[jgredline]

Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

God the Father hails the Messiah with the words, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.†Here again the deity of Christ is unmistakable, and the argument comes from the traditional Hebrew text.

Of course, one needs to be born again to understand this simple verse......

 

[francisdesales]

Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

God the Father hails the Messiah with the words, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.†Here again the deity of Christ is unmistakable, and the argument comes from the traditional Hebrew text.

Of course, one needs to be born again to understand this simple verse......

How about this one?

I [Jesus] am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8


Seems those who have read the Scriptures at the turn of the first century knew what they were talking about when they thought that Jesus was the Christ AND God.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

You make it 'sound' as if there WERE scriptures to be READ during the first hundred years after Christ's death. This is pretty sketchy theology. For even though the 'books' of the Bible, (or the original writtings that these books were 'formed from'), were in existence, VERY FEW were ever even given the oportunity to EVEN KNOW of their existence.

The 'first century' AD was a 'time' in which The Spirit LED The Church.

And I have NEVER stated that Christ was 'created' 'out of time'. I have indicated that there is scriptural evidence of 'when' Christ was 'begotten'. NOT A DATE, but CERTAINLY 'a time'.

Jesus being The Son DOES give Him an 'inheritance' of God, the Father. But, being an heir does NOT MAKE THE Heir the 'same' as the Father. And we kNOW that the Father IS God.

We have witness of a 'voice' from HEAVEN offering that; 'This IS my beloved Son in whom '''''I''''' am well pleased'. Now, WHO is the Son, and WHO is 'well pleased'? Answer these and you HAVE answered the question that I continually raise.

That Christ IS a 'part' of God is without debate. Already said this a HUNDRED times. That there IS deity in Christ has been stated as many times as well. But this 'trinty' would have Christ BEING God. There is ONLY ONE GOD. And, not matter how one 'twists' words, these are UNDENIABLE.

Trinity teaches that there are THREE Gods. Three persons in ONE God. Twist as one may, either there IS ONE TRUE GOD or there are MORE than ONE TRUE GOD. And trying to 'make it fit', does NOT make it 'TRUE'.

There IS God; The Father. And there IS; Christ, the Son of God. And Christ Himself stated that God is HIS GOD as well as ours. Now, so far as OUR understanding of the 'agency of God', I can offer this: God IS capable of performing His WILL in His OWN way. If He chose the Son to DO whatever it is that HE choses for the Son to DO, there is NOTHING that we can do to alter it. And changing the Son into the Father is NOT what He has done. This is PERFECTLY clear throughout scripture. And to CALL Christ God is to ELIMINATE the PLACE which each holds in heaven and on earth. God IS The Father of ALL creation. Whether the creation was completed by Christ OR God Himself. Henry Ford did NOT 'make' his cars. He was the FOUNDER of a 'company' which produced automobiles. So, the cars were 'called' Fords, there were 'others' that actually MADE Them.

MEC

 

[Solo]

fran,

You make it 'sound' as if there WERE scriptures to be READ during the first hundred years after Christ's death. This is pretty sketchy theology. For even though the 'books' of the Bible, (or the original writtings that these books were 'formed from'), were in existence, VERY FEW were ever even given the oportunity to EVEN KNOW of their existence.

The 'first century' AD was a 'time' in which The Spirit LED The Church.

And I have NEVER stated that Christ was 'created' 'out of time'. I have indicated that there is scriptural evidence of 'when' Christ was 'begotten'. NOT A DATE, but CERTAINLY 'a time'.

Jesus being The Son DOES give Him an 'inheritance' of God, the Father. But, being an heir does NOT MAKE THE Heir the 'same' as the Father. And we kNOW that the Father IS God.

We have witness of a 'voice' from HEAVEN offering that; 'This IS my beloved Son in whom '''''I''''' am well pleased'. Now, WHO is the Son, and WHO is 'well pleased'? Answer these and you HAVE answered the question that I continually raise.

That Christ IS a 'part' of God is without debate. Already said this a HUNDRED times. That there IS deity in Christ has been stated as many times as well. But this 'trinty' would have Christ BEING God. There is ONLY ONE GOD. And, not matter how one 'twists' words, these are UNDENIABLE.

Trinity teaches that there are THREE Gods. Three persons in ONE God. Twist as one may, either there IS ONE TRUE GOD or there are MORE than ONE TRUE GOD. And trying to 'make it fit', does NOT make it 'TRUE'.

There IS God; The Father. And there IS; Christ, the Son of God. And Christ Himself stated that God is HIS GOD as well as ours. Now, so far as OUR understanding of the 'agency of God', I can offer this: God IS capable of performing His WILL in His OWN way. If He chose the Son to DO whatever it is that HE choses for the Son to DO, there is NOTHING that we can do to alter it. And changing the Son into the Father is NOT what He has done. This is PERFECTLY clear throughout scripture. And to CALL Christ God is to ELIMINATE the PLACE which each holds in heaven and on earth. God IS The Father of ALL creation. Whether the creation was completed by Christ OR God Himself. Henry Ford did NOT 'make' his cars. He was the FOUNDER of a 'company' which produced automobiles. So, the cars were 'called' Fords, there were 'others' that actually MADE Them.

MEC

I [Jesus] am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8

 

[Free]

You make it 'sound' as if there WERE scriptures to be READ during the first hundred years after Christ's death. This is pretty sketchy theology. For even though the 'books' of the Bible, (or the original writtings that these books were 'formed from'), were in existence, VERY FEW were ever even given the oportunity to EVEN KNOW of their existence.

The 'first century' AD was a 'time' in which The Spirit LED The Church.

The letters were circulated around the churches. Do not try and claim the early churches were ignorant of the letters, as it likely isn't the case.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

Since EACH of the letters was written and SENT to specific 'Churches' I propose that your offering is INVALID. You FAIL to take into consideration that there very FEW people that could EITHER read OR write. This being the case, there were FEW that were EVER able to read MORE than what was offered in epistle to THEIR Church.

It took MUCH time for the 'pieces' of what NOW is The Holy Bible to be compiled. And EVEN then, there were a 'limited' number of people that were able to READ these until just a FEW HUNDRED years ago.

There WAS NO BIBLE a hundred years after Christ's death. Sketchy writings and ONLY available to a LIMITED number of people.

And 'trinity' was NOT something 'created' by a 'council' other than a 'limited' one that was IN OPPOSITION to MANY others. You would SIMPLIFY this to indicate that ALL Christians were informed with the SAME information at the 'SAME' time. And that THESE were IN agreement in understanding of this 'trinity'. NOT TRUE by any stretch of the imagination.

There WERE those in POWER so far as 'churches' are concerned. And it was WARNED that this would happen. That those WOULD come along that would ALTER the doctrines laid down by the TRUE fathers of The Church. And that these would 'sell out' their brothers and sisters for the sake of 'filthy lucre'. Make MERCHANDISE of them, allowing those that followed them to 'give up' their SOULS and allow them to be forfeit for the sake on individual gain of those that were the LEADERS of them VOID of The Spirit.

"Trinity' FITS all that the apostles warned against. And ESPECIALLY when we consider WHO introduced this into Christianity. These that would FORBID to wed. These that WOULD call a 'man' Father. These that would torture and murder those that opposed their views. Those that would CROWN Mary QUEEN OF HEAVEN, and CALL her the MOTHER of God.

Come on Free. I contest NOTHING that has been offered through scripture or The Spirit. What I contest is the 'man-made' theology that SOME would INSIST that I MUST adhere to in order to be ACCEPTABLE as a son of God or 'saved' by the Grace of God through the Blood of His Son; Jesus Christ.

And ANY doctrine or denomination for that matter, that would TEACH that it is 'their understanding' that is able to offer Salvation in "ANY DIFFERENT MEANS'' than that offered by God, Christ and His apostles is 'anti-Christ'. For there is NO 'group' of men able to determine WHO is and WHO is NOT saved. This is able to be discerned by God and His SON only.

And 'man-made' doctrine is INHERENTLY carnal. For the 'flesh' is NOT ABLE to discern The Spirit. Therefore, those that live BY THE FLESH are doomed to live IN THE FLESH. And 'man-made' doctrine IS doctrine created THROUGH the FLESH and of NONE effect concerning Salvation.

Once one comes to an understanding of the TRUTH offered in scripture and through the Spirit, these things that I offer become APPARENT. NO, not to the 'man-made churches' and to those that simply follow 'other men'. But, to those that DO chose to follow IN SPIRIT and in TRUTH there is TRUTH to be obtained. And it differs IMMENSELY from that which is taught by the religious order of our time. Denominationalism was DESIGNED to SEPARATE. For in SEPARATION there can be NO UNITY IN TRUTH.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Let us suppose for a second you are right...and the folks were completely ignorant of the scriptures...

What then would be your excuse for passages such as Hebrews 1:8 where God himself refers to Jesus as God?

Here is another question for you. Do you believe the word of God to be inspired and with out error?

 

[Imagican]

j,

Now you would attempt to 'trick me' JUST as the religious order of the time ATTEMPTED to cause Christ to 'err' in the presence of those that they could manipulate into 'turning those IGNORANT AGAINST' Him.

I 'believe' that The Holy Bible IS the inspired Word of God.

I ALSO 'believe' that it was WRITTEN by 'men'. And being thus is NOTHING but 'words'. The ONLY way in which the Holy scriptures CAN be understood is through 'guidance' by and through the Holy Spirit. For it THIS which makes the Bible HOLY and NOT the simple words written within.

It is OBVIOUS to any that have studied, (as you insist that you HAVE), that the ORIGINAL texts used to compile the Holy Bible WERE, at times, 'differently' offered than MUCH of what was interpreted LATER by those with pre-conceived notions that would allow them to alter their translations in favor of 'doctrine'.

Does this mean there are 'mistakes' in The Bible? Won't answer that. But I WILL offer that the ONLY way to determine this is THROUGH the guidance of the Holy Spirit. For there are MANY possible interpretations of The Word. Yet, there can ONLY BE ONE TRUE interpretation. This is ONLY obtainable through the WILL of God through the Holy Spirit.

And let me offer this: Satan IS the father of lies. His ONE purpose is to subvert those that LOVE God into a submission to HIMSELF. And he will use ANY means at his disposal, INCLUDING the Holy Scriptures. THAT is WHY one MUST be led by The Spirit of GOD in order to correctly interpret their TRUE meanings.

Much like the parables of Christ, the Holy Bible itself is but a 'puzzle' only able to be constructed correctly by those to whom God wills THROUGH His HOLY Spirit. Many have read and MANY have interpreted FALSELY. This is apparent in that the MANY denominations DIFFER in their 'statements of faith'. For IF they had ALL interpreted correctly, there would be BUT ONE CHURCH.

So, j, I KNOW how you would attempt to cause ME to stumble. Your 'trickery' is unable to withstand the 'truth'. For it is NOT my words that I offer you but those of The Father as offered THROUGH His Son.

The Holy Bible 100 percent accurate? Won't say. But, I WILL say that IF one is IN THE SPIRIT, the Holy Bible IS able to offer ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Who wrote the Bible? Man of course. Was it written in the EXACT manor that God wished? ABSOLUTELY. Could one be 'misled' by the words in the Bible? ABSOLUTELY for this is manifest in the history of it's existence. There have been CULTS MANY that USED the Holy Bible as their inspiration and teachings. OBVIOUSLY they didn't UNDERSTAND IT for they were NOT truly being 'led' by The Holy Spirit. They were charlatans that learned the ability to manipulate others through the individuals DESIRE to KNOW God. Yet they stumbled in that they chose to 'follow MEN' rather than God through His Son.

So, allow the Bible to offer understanding. BUT, beware, lest you read IN THE FLESH. For the flesh has ITCHING EARS that desire to HEAR what is contained within the LUSTS of the Flesh. MAKE SURE that the spirit that you follow IS The Holy Spirit or the words contained within The Bible CAN lead to DARKNESS and DEATH rather than light and LIFE.

This is one of the MAIN reasons that the CC used to deny the Word to the masses. For the FEAR that they would be 'misinterpreted' and therefore lead Christianity astray. Exactly what enabled LATER leaders of the CC to DO exactly that.

So, the Bible is the INSPIRED Word of God. Able to lead it's readers to TRUTH. But JUST as able to 'lead' those that are LOST even DEEPER into 'darkness'.

For JUST BECAUSE someone is ABLE to 'read' the English language or ANY OTHER does NOT give them the ability to discern truth through what is offered through the Holy Bible. MANY have fashioned TOOLS of Satan from this EXACT Book.

Now, a question for YOU j;

Since you would choose 'trickery' to 'attempt' to 'prove a point', let me show you JUST HOW such 'trickery' can be used against "YOURSELF''. The question is THIS; YOU tell me and all the other people on this forum, WHAT version of the Holy Bible IS actually the INSPIRED Word of God? Which INTERPRETATION IS completely ACCURATE? And when you, (if you), answer this, PLEASE explain to us HOW you KNOW this to BE TRUE.

MEC