Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[MarkT]

But there is a difference of being in the "form of" and being "made in the likeness of".

Being in the "form of God" speaks to being equal to God.

My voice, my physical appearance is who I am - it is not a 'form' of me.

The "light" that was in the beginning was not only with God, but IS God.

I can respond to your post and say, 'You say'. I don't actually see you saying, 'But there is a difference ...' or hear you saying, 'But there is a difference ..' but I can see your post and see that you said, 'But there is a difference ... by your post. Similarly we can see what God said by his Word. The disciples could hear what God said and see what God was doing by seeing his Word doing it. His Word was in the form of light in the beginning and in the form of God when he appeared to Abraham.

What is the form of God who is invisible, who no one has ever seen or ever heard? Jesus said, "His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen". In my understanding the form is 'He', in other words, the form of God would be the light that would reveal God and make him known. That's what John 1:18 says, "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."

 

[Imagican]

MEC - Phillippians 2:6 clearly states that He (Jesus) existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped (utilized or asserted)."

There are two very important keys here:

1) Existed in the form of God

2) Did not regard equality with God

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1) Jesus 'existed' in the form of God. While we are made in His image, we do not exist in the 'form" of God.

2) This says that Jesus possess equality with God. Noone else is equal to God, except God. Therefore, Jesus is God since He is equal to God.

One question to SHOW that you even understand this quote you offer:

What form IS God?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

MEC - how can one exist in the 'form of God' and not be God?

Simple:

God IS Spirit. He has NOT physical form that we KNOW OF. Christ embodied the FORM of God IN SPIRIT. We KNOW this for we have the words of God Himself STATING, 'This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased'. This after witness that the SPIRIT of God descended upon Christ. The GLORY, (Spirit), was actually OBSERVED.

So, Christ WAS in the 'form' of God in that IN HIM dwelt the Spirit of God. But YOU also offered in your quote that which PROVES what is offered here. And that BEING; Even THOUGH Christ was FILLED with the Spirit of God, He did NOT consider this to make HIM God Himself. For EQUALITY was NOT something that Christ was even able to acheive.

You know, it's REAL easy for the FLESH to 'justify itself' in it's OWN heart. Christ was ABLE to overcome the temptation of JUSTIFICATION. He simply OBEYED the will of the Father KNOWING that His will was TRUTH. Never doubting the POWER of His father. NEVER taking the GLORY 'from' the Father. Simply ACCEPTING the Glory GIVEN by The Father.

Satan fell from JUST such temptation. Believing that he was ABLE to 'take things in HIS OWN HANDS' rather than PLACING his FAITH IN THE FATHER. Christ offered us the TRUTH; that WHAT He came to offer was GIVEN HIM by The Father. IT WAS NOT HIS OWN.

I have been accused of NOT understanding LOVE. What I 'see' are those that have NO CONCEPTION of Love, much less and understanding of it. Love seeks NOT IT'S OWN but that of others. Christ was the personification OF THIS LOVE. The PERFECT EXAMPLE. SHOWING us PLAINLY the LOVE Of God and the LOVE that IS God. An example that CLEARLY offered UNDERSTANDING of LOVE. Giving and NOT taking.

MEC




MEC

 

[MarkT]

Phillippians 2:6 clearly states that He (Jesus) existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped (utilized or asserted)."

There are two very important keys here:

1) Existed in the form of God

2) Did not regard equality with God

Paul talks about 'taking the form of a servant' and 'being found in human form', so I think he is talking about the divine form when he says, 'he was in the form of God.'

So if we were talking about a creature, we might say 'a form of creature', like a bird, for example, we might even say 'a form of bird', but in any case, it would be something that was formed of the earth. It follows then, that any creature or being formed of God would be in the divine form, a heavenly creature ie. 'in the form of God' and we would call him a divine being. Paul calls him 'the man from heaven'. 1 Cor. 15:47 So I think we can say that the Word of God was a god, a divine being, to begin with, before he became flesh and dwelt with us.

 

[MarkT]

Yes.

You could say he was a divine spirit, if spirit is the form of God, and he was in God's name. Thus he was 'the LORD' of the prophets and the one who appeared to Abraham. Jesus said, "Abraham saw my day" and we know the light was called 'Day'. He was seen in the flesh but not of the flesh. He wasn't a man of dust but a life giving spirit, as Paul said, 'The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven." 1 Cor. 15:47

The Word gave us the true image of God so that we have this image and the image is the house of God, the temple God lives in. The Word was in the form of God, a life giving spirit. That makes sense. I think form and image are closely related because Paul first says he was in the form of God and then, speaking of Jesus Christ, he refers to his 'face' - the reflection of God in his face and he says he was the image of God which refers to his appearance. Of course, Jesus appeared to the disciples after he was raised and the disciples didn't always recognize him. So his appearance not withstanding, I think the being of Christ Jesus himself was the appearance of God.

The point is 'the image of God' has to be created by the words of God through Jesus Christ, who was the Word or Son of God, to have any effect of being a house of God for God to live in. I think most people are living in a man made house; a concept of God that was created by man. But they might say the house was created by the words of God. This may be true, however, the house wasn't created in them by the words of God. It was created by the doctrine of the Trinity. So we have the doctrine of the Trinity and the words of God. Are they the same thing? I don't think so. One is the understanding of the other, so the words of God are the 'seed' and the doctrine is the 'plant.'

 

[MarkT]

Now, I'm not saying this house or plant or wineskin, as Jesus called it, isn't sufficient or wouldn't be sufficient to keep the Holy Spirit. It probably is to the ones in whom it was made. But we should build our house with the proper materials, the words that came by the Word of God, and it should be built on the rock that was revealed to Peter, the knowledge of who Jesus is, 'the Christ, the Son of the living God.' If it is, then God will give us the living water that will give the plant growth. As I see it, the image of God, the Trinity, isn't growing. And even demons are taking up residence. They have to twist the words of Jesus and the Apostles to make it look like the house comes from heaven. But I'm not sure you have to twist words. I mean, just because they do doesn't mean the house isn't any good. I can't fault anyone who chooses the house in a sincere belief, as long as they have the firm foundation they should be OK. Like I said, I've seen alot of nice things in the Catholic church, so I'm not against anyone, but trying to water is difficult.

 

[Guest]

One question to SHOW that you even understand this quote you offer:

What form IS God?

MEC

The form of God is Spirit. Therefore, the passage is saying that Jesus to was spirit - in the "form" of God. Until Jesus took on the mantle of flesh - and became man.

I would suggest that the understanding of "grasped" is not in the vein of understanding - but rather as utilized. In other words, when taking on the mantel of humanity - Christ did not utilizing the power that is His in the 'form of God'.

Christ humbled himself to provide for us an example for us to follow. What good would it have been for Christ to use His "God powers" and then expect us to follow His example?

Rather Christ emptied himself and relied on the Holy Spirit as an example for us to follow - that we too can overcome temptation with the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MarkT]

The form of God is Spirit. Therefore, the passage is saying that Jesus to was spirit - in the "form" of God. Until Jesus took on the mantle of flesh - and became man.

No. Abraham saw him so he wasn't a spirit. He was the light who appeared as God Almighty to Abraham. He was the LORD in name and appearance. Thousands of people saw him in the flesh. Seeing him was seeing the Father. Paul said he was the image of God so I'm pretty sure he was referring to his form when he appeared to Abraham.