WHY CALVINISM IS UNBIBLICAL - TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi,

Do you believe the mark of the beast is yet to happen?
If so why so?

Interested to know because there are some who believe that it has already happened and some who think it is yet to happen.

Hi Wrigley.
This false doctrine stuff is way over my head.
I'ma simple believe in Jesus only type of guy.
No strings attached.

 

[Butch5]

Evening.

Really sorry but your post has me confused.

How on earth can a Christian say that those who follow satan will be saved just to hold on to their doctrines? What doctrines we talking about here?

Don't get the only options left either.

Hi Wrg 1405,

I've wondered that myself. It was the OSAS doctrine. Paul said to Timothy that some of the younger women had lost their first faith, grown cold towards Christ, and had followed after satan. Typically people will say, "they were never saved", however, in this passage Paul says they had faith. They had faith but were later following satan. I've had people say that these would still be saved because they had previously had faith.

 

[PeterJens]

Evening.

Really sorry but your post has me confused.

How on earth can a Christian say that those who follow satan will be saved just to hold on to their doctrines? What doctrines we talking about here?

Don't get the only options left either.

I was surprised to read a famous calvinist preached in regard to the unforgivable sin being not believing in Jesus. In their view because this was the only way to not be a believer, taking the mark of the beast could not overturn the promise of salvation. It all stems from the concept of being sealed in Christ irrevocably, chosen by Him, which can never be undone, so therefore whatever you do like taking the mark of the beast leads to problems but not the lake of fire.

This logic is self defeating though. If scripture is our reference, you cannot contradict clear teaching, there is no forgiveness for standing for the beast against God, when spiritually everything becomes clear.

The point about the Kingdom is living love in Christ. Jesus himself warned of those who are in the vine can become dry and dead, and will be broken off and burnt. The point of faith is the life Jesus brings. If faith is the point not the life, then one can be dead spiritually and still be saved. To me this is absurd, and suggests those who hold to this view do not know the life Jesus brings, because they are unaware or blind to its absence, which testifies to its lack of reality in the first place.

Emotional conviction is a powerful force. I know I am right because I feel it certainly. But that is the problem. Unless one goes through carefully each step, and checks with the Lord the conclusions one draws, the feelings can be there but totally deluded. Thorns and thistles or figs and grapes. Jesus speaks of our hearts and our sharing, our encouragement and desire to see others be blessed and find fellowship in the Lord.

My wife and I were discussing my family and their lack of empathy and seeing others and their hurts or joy. You cannot have a shared relationship if this mutual sharing is not present, and when one party tries to negotiate, the other party just rides over everything as if nothing matters. It comes down to unless you are a listener and start to care how others are coping, the world is just a projection and things that you do not agree with are just wrong.

God bless you

 

[JLB]

Hi,

Do you believe the mark of the beast is yet to happen?
If so why so?

Interested to know because there are some who believe that it has already happened and some who think it is yet to happen.

When you have to have a mark in your right hand or forehead to be able to buy or sell anything, then it will be here.

Until then it will be yet in the future.

Coming soon though.


He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 13:16-18





JLB

 

[Degas]

This calvinist teaching states that man is so depraved that he is dead in his sins.
He is so wicked in his heart that he is unable to raise up on his own to see the light of God.
For this reason, they teach, God must first regenerate a person, and then they become saved and are able to
have faith in God.
[...]
So, what they teach is that we are dead, God makes us alive and regenerates us and then we become saved.

This is the opposite of what Christians have believed throughout the ages and which every denomination teaches.
That is: That we believe God's revelation to us....we believe the gospel...we have faith in God... THEN God saves us by His grace.

I'm not a Calvinist but I do not see any contradiction here. According to what I understand, Calvin says we are all sinners, which we are. Of course we believe first, and we obey, hence do our best not to sin but we fail again and again, even if only invisibly, in our minds and in our hearts (judgement, resentment, lack of compassion...). It is hence clear that we believe but we are not established in our faith since our actions, words and thoughts are not in tune with our beliefs. If we try hard enough and if our actions, words and thoughts become closely tuned with our beliefs, then we will have real faith, we will walk our talk, and God will save us. This is how I understand the little bit of Calvin's teachings you quoted. Being baptized is not enough, believing is not enough, we must work hard to be saved.

This point of view is sustained by James 2:14-24 which is very clear about the importance of good deeds. It ends with: "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone".

Of course, you could find verses from Paul saying the opposite but Paul and James are in blatant contradiction on the subject of salvation. One could argue Paul doesn't oppose James on the subject of salvation because Paul assumes our actions will always be good if we have faith but this is wrong. Who among us can say they never sinned from the moment they converted?

When it comes to salvation, Christians therefore clearly have to choose between Paul and James. I have no idea why anyone reading Paul carefully and with an open mind -- e.g. setting aside the preconception that everything Paul wrote is the truth -- would believe Paul: James was chosen by Jesus, Paul wasn't. James spent lots of time with Jesus, Paul never met Jesus. I have never read James contradicting himself and I have exposed, in recent posts in another thread, some of Paul's contradictions and inconsistencies. I have also pointed out that Paul's spiritual understanding can be shallow at times.

Now, James is not the only one proving Paul wrong on the topic of salvation. Even John the Baptist refused baptizing Pharisees and Sadducees unless they would produce fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:7-9; Luke 3:7-8) which clearly means that believing and repenting is not enough.

 

[Butch5]

I'm not a Calvinist but I do not see any contradiction here. According to what I understand, Calvin says we are all sinners, which we are. Of course we believe first, and we obey, hence do our best not to sin but we fail again and again, even if only invisibly, in our minds and in our hearts (judgement, resentment, lack of compassion...). It is hence clear that we believe but we are not established in our faith since our actions, words and thoughts are not in tune with our beliefs. If we try hard enough and if our actions, words and thoughts become closely tuned with our beliefs, then we will have real faith, we will walk our talk, and God will save us. This is how I understand the little bit of Calvin's teachings you quoted. Being baptized is not enough, believing is not enough, we must work hard to be saved.

This point of view is sustained by James 2:14-24 which is very clear about the importance of good deeds. It ends with: "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone".

Of course, you could find verses from Paul saying the opposite but Paul and James are in blatant contradiction on the subject of salvation. One could argue Paul doesn't oppose James on the subject of salvation because Paul assumes our actions will always be good if we have faith but this is wrong. Who among us can say they never sinned from the moment they converted?

When it comes to salvation, Christians therefore clearly have to choose between Paul and James. I have no idea why anyone reading Paul carefully and with an open mind -- e.g. setting aside the preconception that everything Paul wrote is the truth -- would believe Paul: James was chosen by Jesus, Paul wasn't. James spent lots of time with Jesus, Paul never met Jesus. I have never read James contradicting himself and I have exposed, in recent posts in another thread, some of Paul's contradictions and inconsistencies. I have also pointed out that Paul's spiritual understanding can be shallow at times.

Now, James is not the only one proving Paul wrong on the topic of salvation. Even John the Baptist refused baptizing Pharisees and Sadducees unless they would produce fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:7-9; Luke 3:7-8) which clearly means that believing and repenting is not enough.

James and Paul are not at odds regarding salvation. They are in agreement. It is because many people don't understand Paul that they think there is a difference.

Also, Paul was taught by Jesus. And Jesus stopped him on the road to Damascus.

 

[Degas]

James and Paul are not at odds regarding salvation. They are in agreement. It is because many people don't understand Paul that they think there is a difference.

Thank you for letting me know I don't understand Paul. Now, would you care to explain why?

 

[Butch5]

Thank you for telling me how dumb I am. Now, would you care to explain why?

I didn't say you were dumb. Where do you see a difference between Paul and James?

 

[JLB]

Calvin says we are all sinners, which we are.

Totally false.


Born again Christians are saints, those who are joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him.

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

Sinners are those who are seperate from Christ; lost, spiritually dead.

• For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
  

JLB

 

[Wrg1405]

When you have to have a mark in your right hand or forehead to be able to buy or sell anything, then it will be here.

Until then it will be yet in the future.

Coming soon though.


He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 13:16-18





JLB

What makes you think it is actually a physical mark?

If we look at Exodus 13

7Eat unleavened bread during those seven days; nothing with yeast in it is to be seen among you, nor shall any yeast be seen anywhere within your borders.
8On that day tell your son, ‘I do this because of what the Lorddid for me when I came out of Egypt.’
9This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the Lordis to be on your lips. For the Lordbrought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.
10You must keep this ordinance at the appointed time year after year.

Here we see the same thing. A sign.
God commands obedience and in doing so to him it's sign on the hand and a reminder on the forehead.

Believers follow Christ but we don't have a physical mark if we did would it be 777?

In revelations the number is 666.

In Genesis God created man on the 6th day then on the 7th he rested and I believe this relates to 4th commandment concerning keeping the Sabbath. It's being obedient

I am not saying that under the NC we have to keep the Sabbath on a certain day because Christ is our Sabbath rest.

As a result we are obedient to him. We rest in his finished work and not ours.

So is it possible that the Revelations was written to the 7 churches at the time who were under pressure to reject Jesus and if they did not then they would be persecuted?

If I'm honest I truly don't understand it but I think it's not a physical mark but it's oppression from governments from the time of Jesus death and resurrection who persecute Christians to reject their faith and bow the knee to secular religion in their country.

Today it's covert but also overt.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What makes you think it is actually a physical mark?

If we look at Exodus 13

7Eat unleavened bread during those seven days; nothing with yeast in it is to be seen among you, nor shall any yeast be seen anywhere within your borders.
8On that day tell your son, ‘I do this because of what the Lorddid for me when I came out of Egypt.’
9This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the Lordis to be on your lips. For the Lordbrought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.
10You must keep this ordinance at the appointed time year after year.

Here we see the same thing. A sign.
God commands obedience and in doing so to him it's sign on the hand and a reminder on the forehead.

Believers follow Christ but we don't have a physical mark if we did would it be 777?

In revelations the number is 666.

In Genesis God created man on the 6th day then on the 7th he rested and I believe this relates to 4th commandment concerning keeping the Sabbath. It's being obedient

I am not saying that under the NC we have to keep the Sabbath on a certain day because Christ is our Sabbath rest.

As a result we are obedient to him. We rest in his finished work and not ours.

So is it possible that the Revelations was written to the 7 churches at the time who were under pressure to reject Jesus and if they did not then they would be persecuted?

If I'm honest I truly don't understand it but I think it's not a physical mark but it's oppression from governments from the time of Jesus death and resurrection who persecute Christians to reject their faith and bow the knee to secular religion in their country.

Today it's covert but also overt.

Wow!
And how many PHD's is that now?

 

[Wrg1405]

Hi Wrg 1405,

I've wondered that myself. It was the OSAS doctrine. Paul said to Timothy that some of the younger women had lost their first faith, grown cold towards Christ, and had followed after satan. Typically people will say, "they were never saved", however, in this passage Paul says they had faith. They had faith but were later following satan. I've had people say that these would still be saved because they had previously had faith.

Afternoon Butch5

Any chance you let me know what those verses in Timothy are?

Ta

 

[Episcopius]

Arminius accepted that there was such a thing as Total Depravity, but would not have defined it the samE way as the Calvinistas.

There is the concept of PREVENIENT GRACE - which enables a human to believe and become saved.

In Calvinism, people have no choice in the matter. It is settled before the foundation of the world whether someone is REPROBATE or OF THE ELECT. People are ZEROES - AUTOMATONS - NOTHINGS.

 

[Wrg1405]

Arminius accepted that there was such a thing as Total Depravity, but would not have defined it the samE way as the Calvinistas.

There is the concept of PREVENIENT GRACE - which enables a human to believe and become saved.

In Calvinism, people have no choice in the matter. It is settled before the foundation of the world whether someone is REPROBATE or OF THE ELECT. People are ZEROES - AUTOMATONS - NOTHINGS.

John Wesley associated with Arminius.

I don't know that much about Calvanism but the view that people have no choice have no matter in salvation for me is not right.

People have a choice and it's called free will.
This part of their doctrine pains me because it can lead to just writing people off or rejecting them, no need to walk with broken people.

I do however believe that God knows from the beginning of time those who will accept him.

Jesus said that he must go back to Father so that the Holy Spirit would come to convict the world of its sin and that sin is unbelief in Jesus.

 

[JLB]

What makes you think it is actually a physical mark?

If we look at Exodus 13

7Eat unleavened bread during those seven days; nothing with yeast in it is to be seen among you, nor shall any yeast be seen anywhere within your borders.
8On that day tell your son, ‘I do this because of what the Lorddid for me when I came out of Egypt.’
9This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the Lordis to be on your lips. For the Lordbrought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.
10You must keep this ordinance at the appointed time year after year.

Here we see the same thing. A sign.
God commands obedience and in doing so to him it's sign on the hand and a reminder on the forehead.

Believers follow Christ but we don't have a physical mark if we did would it be 777?

In revelations the number is 666.

In Genesis God created man on the 6th day then on the 7th he rested and I believe this relates to 4th commandment concerning keeping the Sabbath. It's being obedient

I am not saying that under the NC we have to keep the Sabbath on a certain day because Christ is our Sabbath rest.

As a result we are obedient to him. We rest in his finished work and not ours.

So is it possible that the Revelations was written to the 7 churches at the time who were under pressure to reject Jesus and if they did not then they would be persecuted?

If I'm honest I truly don't understand it but I think it's not a physical mark but it's oppression from governments from the time of Jesus death and resurrection who persecute Christians to reject their faith and bow the knee to secular religion in their country.

Today it's covert but also overt.

Remember that no man can by or sell unless they have the mark, which refers to an etching or cutting in. It has to be recognizable by those who are doing the selling.


He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17



JLB

 

[Episcopius]

John Wesley associated with Arminius.

Yes - Wesley published THE ARMINIAN MAGAZINE

 

[Wrg1405]

Remember that no man can by or sell unless they have the mark, which refers to an etching or cutting in. It has to be recognizable by those who are doing the selling.


He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17



JLB

So your belief concept is physical on the body?

 

[Wrg1405]

Yes - Wesley published THE ARMINIAN MAGAZINE

If memory serves me and I could be wrong but Wesley was a "works save us" but retracted that at some point?

Aldersgate experience

 

[Wrg1405]

When it comes to salvation, Christians therefore clearly have to choose between Paul and James. I have no idea why anyone reading Paul carefully and with an open mind -- e.g. setting aside the preconception that everything Paul wrote is the truth -- would believe Paul: James was chosen by Jesus, Paul wasn't. James spent lots of time with Jesus, Paul never met Jesus

Wrong.

When it comes to choosing we chose Jesus.
James was appointed by Jesus as was Paul.

Even Peter accepted him as an apostle

 

[JLB]

So your belief concept is physical on the body?

Yes sir.