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WHY CALVINISM IS UNBIBLICAL - TOTAL DEPRAVITY

Wrg1405

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Ooh please dont call me sir.
My name is Bill.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here my brother in Jesus.

So many thougts and interpretations concerning this and it's worth getting uptight with it.

I am sure that we both want to see people grow in Jesus and be part of the process but also want Jesus to grow in us.

God bless you.
 
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wondering

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I'm not a Calvinist but I do not see any contradiction here. According to what I understand, Calvin says we are all sinners, which we are. Of course we believe first, and we obey, hence do our best not to sin but we fail again and again, even if only invisibly, in our minds and in our hearts (judgement, resentment, lack of compassion...). It is hence clear that we believe but we are not established in our faith since our actions, words and thoughts are not in tune with our beliefs. If we try hard enough and if our actions, words and thoughts become closely tuned with our beliefs, then we will have real faith, we will walk our talk, and God will save us. This is how I understand the little bit of Calvin's teachings you quoted. Being baptized is not enough, believing is not enough, we must work hard to be saved.

This point of view is sustained by James 2:14-24 which is very clear about the importance of good deeds. It ends with: "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone".

Of course, you could find verses from Paul saying the opposite but Paul and James are in blatant contradiction on the subject of salvation. One could argue Paul doesn't oppose James on the subject of salvation because Paul assumes our actions will always be good if we have faith but this is wrong. Who among us can say they never sinned from the moment they converted?

When it comes to salvation, Christians therefore clearly have to choose between Paul and James. I have no idea why anyone reading Paul carefully and with an open mind -- e.g. setting aside the preconception that everything Paul wrote is the truth -- would believe Paul: James was chosen by Jesus, Paul wasn't. James spent lots of time with Jesus, Paul never met Jesus. I have never read James contradicting himself and I have exposed, in recent posts in another thread, some of Paul's contradictions and inconsistencies. I have also pointed out that Paul's spiritual understanding can be shallow at times.

Now, James is not the only one proving Paul wrong on the topic of salvation. Even John the Baptist refused baptizing Pharisees and Sadducees unless they would produce fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:7-9; Luke 3:7-8) which clearly means that believing and repenting is not enough.
Two thoughts for you.

1. You should learn more about calvinism because it is unbiblical and many persons believe it is correct doctrine.
There's a lot to know about it. I've also done an O.P. on UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. The LIMITED ATONEMENT WILL BE NEXT.

2. Paul and James agree. I'm going to start a thread about this since it keeps coming up and this isn't the place for that discussion.
 

Walpole

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The belief that Sts. Paul and James are in contradiction is based on the false premise that St. Paul was an adherent of the Protestant doctrine of sola fide.
 

Episcopius

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A popular song adjusted in the light of LIMITED ATONEMENT and other Calvinistic goulash:

Jesus loves the little children
Some of all types of all the children in the world
Red and yellow, black and white
Some are precious in His sight
Jesus loves some of the children of the world
 

wondering

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A popular song adjusted in the light of LIMITED ATONEMENT and other Calvinistic goulash:

Jesus loves the little children
Some of all types of all the children in the world
Red and yellow, black and white
Some are precious in His sight
Jesus loves some of the children of the world
Limited Atonement is next.
In Theology.
Tomorrow, I hope.
 

JLB

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Ooh please dont call me sir.
My name is Bill.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here my brother in Jesus.

So many thougts and interpretations concerning this and it's worth getting uptight with it.

I am sure that we both want to see people grow in Jesus and be part of the process but also want Jesus to grow in us.

God bless you.

Yes we want Christians to be aware that there is a literal mark of the beast that they will have to take if they want to buy or sell, and warn them not to take it.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12




C9B2C3EE-E834-43C6-89B2-CD94950683CD.jpeg2873ECA0-4D0A-464E-A6A4-F6917D319E0B.jpeg
 

wondering

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Yes we want Christians to be aware that there is a literal mark of the beast that they will have to take if they want to buy or sell, and warn them not to take it.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12






JLB
Did you know that there are persons that have a chip placed under the thumb to unlock the entrance door to their home?
Did you know that a country's financial dept/ministry hates cash transactions?
It's just a matter of time.
 

JLB

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Did you know that there are persons that have a chip placed under the thumb to unlock the entrance door to their home?
Did you know that a country's financial dept/ministry hates cash transactions?
It's just a matter of time.

Rich European and Mexican Aristocrats have their children “chipped” because of the rampant kidnapping.
 

Butch5

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Afternoon Butch5

Any chance you let me know what those verses in Timothy are?
Ta
Hi Wrg 1405

9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. (1 Tim. 5:9-16 KJV)
 

JLB

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Hi Wrg 1405

9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. (1 Tim. 5:9-16 KJV)

Amen.
 

Walpole

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A popular song adjusted in the light of LIMITED ATONEMENT and other Calvinistic goulash:

Jesus loves the little children
Some of all types of all the children in the world
Red and yellow, black and white
Some are precious in His sight
Jesus loves some of the children of the world

You are exactly right. The Calvinist message is quite simple: "God hates you. He hated you from the foundation of the world and created you just to take pleasure in seeing you destroyed."

The Westboro Baptist community is the pinnacle of Calvinism, unabashedly proclaiming God’s hatred.
 

Wrg1405

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I am glad then, that I know nothing of Westboro Baptist.
I know something of them based on a documentary by Louis Theroux.
He went to USA and spent time with its members.

I was truly shocked.
Disgusting church and certainly not God focused.
Full of hatred and lack of love.
 

Episcopius

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from Wikipedia:

Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an American hyper-Calvinist hate group.[nb 1] It is known for engaging in inflammatory homophobic and anti-American pickets, as well as hate speech against atheists, Jews, Muslims, transgender people, and numerous Christian denominations.[nb 2] Contrary to its name, it is not a Baptist church: it is not affiliated with any Baptist denomination and has been denounced by Baptist conventions, including the Baptist World Alliance and the Southern Baptist Convention, and by other mainstream Christian denominations.

Good Grief
 

Walpole

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from Wikipedia:

Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an American hyper-Calvinist hate group.[nb 1] It is known for engaging in inflammatory homophobic and anti-American pickets, as well as hate speech against atheists, Jews, Muslims, transgender people, and numerous Christian denominations.[nb 2] Contrary to its name, it is not a Baptist church: it is not affiliated with any Baptist denomination and has been denounced by Baptist conventions, including the Baptist World Alliance and the Southern Baptist Convention, and by other mainstream Christian denominations.

Good Grief

They are the end result and ultimate expression of Calvinism.
 

PeterJens

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I'm not a Calvinist but I do not see any contradiction here. According to what I understand, Calvin says we are all sinners, which we are. Of course we believe first, and we obey, hence do our best not to sin but we fail again and again, even if only invisibly, in our minds and in our hearts (judgement, resentment, lack of compassion...). It is hence clear that we believe but we are not established in our faith since our actions, words and thoughts are not in tune with our beliefs. If we try hard enough and if our actions, words and thoughts become closely tuned with our beliefs, then we will have real faith, we will walk our talk, and God will save us. This is how I understand the little bit of Calvin's teachings you quoted. Being baptized is not enough, believing is not enough, we must work hard to be saved.

This point of view is sustained by James 2:14-24 which is very clear about the importance of good deeds. It ends with: "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone".

Of course, you could find verses from Paul saying the opposite but Paul and James are in blatant contradiction on the subject of salvation. One could argue Paul doesn't oppose James on the subject of salvation because Paul assumes our actions will always be good if we have faith but this is wrong. Who among us can say they never sinned from the moment they converted?

When it comes to salvation, Christians therefore clearly have to choose between Paul and James. I have no idea why anyone reading Paul carefully and with an open mind -- e.g. setting aside the preconception that everything Paul wrote is the truth -- would believe Paul: James was chosen by Jesus, Paul wasn't. James spent lots of time with Jesus, Paul never met Jesus. I have never read James contradicting himself and I have exposed, in recent posts in another thread, some of Paul's contradictions and inconsistencies. I have also pointed out that Paul's spiritual understanding can be shallow at times.

Now, James is not the only one proving Paul wrong on the topic of salvation. Even John the Baptist refused baptizing Pharisees and Sadducees unless they would produce fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:7-9; Luke 3:7-8) which clearly means that believing and repenting is not enough.
This is an interesting proposition you make.
I would make a simple point. I often say a sentence, which is one context means one thing and in another something else. Words, grammar, order, hierarchy change meanings, and when you layer everything together, you may find James, John, Paul, Jesus are all saying the same thing.

As a believer I have gone through many different emphasises and found while I discover one, it appears to explain everything, but when it falls into context, it becomes part of a whole. Paul said something strange. I can eat food sacrificed to idols, because idols are just stone, and it means nothing to me. The apostles though wanted gentiles to not do this in their encouragement to them in Acts when they accepted a believer could be a gentile and not also a jew.

I have had many conversations with ex-legalists who are hyper sensitive to any rules which might condemn them. Often they are nice folk with much love for those they meet, yet for them they were wounded by self righteousness and self justification which they followed for many years. In a discussion they would not murder someone, and expect forgiveness, but they do not want to condemn themselves for speeding. For them building a christian culture is wrong, they are saved sinners because of Jesus. What they often miss is sinners who really live without rules are lost, and know nothing of love and care, which in words is the world they are claiming Jesus accepts.

These different emotional reactions to ideas, mean a short interaction on the internet will not change people or their positions, but can open the door to meaningful dialogue, and the assertion that praises Jesus.

Paul believed in showing repentance in a believers life to demonstrate the real reality of the Holy Spirit.

"I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds"
Acts 26:20

Paul believes the structure of being a pharisee does not justify a believer, but he upholds the law through living by love. It is possible to take some of Pauls words and make it sound like he is against morality, and faith in Jesus saves us. The classic problem is "faith in Jesus" does save us, but this faith shows itself in a changed life following Jesus and His words. Some followers I have met have a single sheet of A4 paper as their gospel. This is a faith of summary and simplification because anything more for them is too much and they cannot cope.

Faith is often about coping strategies, rather than finding the truth, or balance or changing ones heart from the inside out. Some called me evil, a marxist for suggesting you need to love from the heart, except that is Jesus's words.
I have concluded that emotionally we make a world in our heads we can cope with, even though the logic is wrong, it is who we are, and we will defend it come what may. One believer who had suffered from depression etc. found his faith gave him hope, so what he saw as a challenge was painful to him. Sadly I was just repeating Jesus's words, so whatever he had made Jesus into, it was not Jesus of scripture.

God bless you
 
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