The church came first
Existed first exercised authority taught before there was a New Testament
The church was taught by Christ in person for three years and wrote the New Testament
Thanks
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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WHY DID CHRIST SEND HIS DISCIPLES OUT WITH THE GOOD NEWS?
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
Existed first exercised authority taught before there was a New Testament
The church was taught by Christ in person for three years and wrote the New Testament
Thanks
They are God’s authorized priests
2 cor 5:18
The Church is built on Christ, NOT Peter.I hear you. And as a Protestant I used to use the same argument all the time against Catholics saying that what Jesus really meant when he said "thou art Cephas/Peter ["little stone"] and upon this Rock [petra = Rock] I will build my church," he meant he would build the church on himself, the Rock [petra], while Peter is just a "little stone" [cephas]. But a Protestant evangelical NT scholar showed me that I was wrong, and that Jesus actually was referring to Peter as the rock he would build His church on (as the leader of the church which Peter was; no one is saying Peter is the Cornerstone Rock---that ROCK IS JESUS, you're right).
But in Matthew 16.8 Jesus really is saying he will build the church on Peter as the leader of the church. It's a play on Peter's Aramaic name Kephas [Greek = Cephas] which means "rock." But "you are cephas [stone] and on this rock [petra]" is the only way to render it in Greek. In Aramaic it reads "thou art kephas [= rock] and on this kephas [= rock] I will build my church."
So, Catholics are indeed correct that Jesus is saying he will build His church on Peter. But Catholics are still incorrect to say this supports apostolic succession, because there is no hint of that in the verse.
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ 1 Co 10:4.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Co 3:10–11.
Any questions?
As Luke said:
3 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. Lk 3:1-2.
One Caesar, one Governor, three tetrarchs, two high priests, all men of letters and accomplishments and credentials.
BUT the Word of God came to John [in the wilderness.]
29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me. 31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? 32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. Mk 11:29–32.
Pharisees and Sadducees were not authorized by God.
The "Church" was originally known as the Congregation of the Lord [in the wilderness] and the Tabernacle was their meeting place.
Matt 16:17
Jesus declares Peter’s person not confession to be blessed!
Peter is the rock chosen by God!
Peter’s person or Peter’s confession?
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
God chose Peter!
Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Is Peter’s person blessed or Peter’s confession?
Does Peter’s confession or Peter’s person receive divine revelation?
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
When God changes a man’s name abram to Abraham or Jacob to Israel or Simon to Peter it signifies an office!
Is Peter’s person or Peter’s confession who’s name is changed?
And! Peter and rock are the same!
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Does Christ gives the keys to Peter’s person or Peter’s confession?
Does Christ give the power to bind and loose to Peter’s person or to a confession?
Did the Father send Christ or a confession of Christ?
Jesus Christ is the rock of salvation!
Peter is the rock that the church is built on by Christ!
Christ sends Peter not his confession!
Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter alone, and instructed peter to minister to the other apostles
Jn 21:17 Peter entrusted with the flock or church
Only Peter and His successors have
Jurisdictional authority from Christ to govern the church!
Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as intermediary!
It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!
Matt 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the houser, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself! Matt 17:27
Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to peter matt 16:18-19 making him prime minister applying Isa 22:21-22 to peter
It’s Christ who does this
Why is the name of peter even mentioned?
Why does Christ change Peter’s name, God changing a persons name like Abram to Abraham or Jacob to Israel always signifies a mission or ministry!
Why does Christ give him the keys of jurisdictional authority that the prime minister holds under the king to administer the kingdom? Isa 22:21-22
How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?
How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)
How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?
also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22 jurisdictional authority of the keys and called father
Matt 28:19 go teach baptize
Jn 20:21-23 same mission power and authority as christ
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 successors of Moses have the jurisdictional authority and the power to bind and loose which Christ says must be obeyed, then taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles and their successors
Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Applies only to Peter as “prince of the apostles”!
Peter and his successors are the Leader of the apostles and the head of the church until Christ returns!
First and chief apostle!
Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,
Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Lk 22:32 Christ prayed for Peter!
Peter is head of the church on earth in the place of Christ until His return!
Isa 22:21-22 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt 23:1 power and authority of the kingdom known in the keys and binding and loosing, Matt 21:43 kingdom shall be taken from you given to another who will bear fruit. (Peter the apostles in holy church Lk 22:29)
Matt 17:27 Jesus identified peter with himself.
Matt 16:17 Peter alone received revelation from the Father
Lk 22:32 Peter to strengthen his brethren (the apostles)
Jn 21:17 feed my sheep
Peter exercises his authority over the apostles in the church!
Acts 1:15
Acts 3:4
Acts 5:5 5:10
Acts 10:44
Acts 15:7
ONLY TO PETER CHRIST SAID: THOU ART PETER AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILT MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!Matt 16:18
Peter is the prime minister, father, and head of the church on earth until Christ returns Isa 22:21-22
Seat of peter remains Until Christ returns
Matt 28:19-20
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
4 important questions:
1) How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?
2) How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)
3) How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?
4) why did Christ give the keys to Peter (and only to Peter) keys of jurisdictional authority. Isa 22:21-22 why even bother to mention Peter if he is not involved?
Explain Jn 20:21 Peter and the apostles and their successors have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! “As the father sent me, so I send you”!
Matt 28:19 christ communicates his authority to peter and the apostles to teach all nations, baptize all disciples!
Jn 20:21-23 apostles even have authority to forgive sins
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 the authority and power of the successors of Moses required to be obeyed are taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles
Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:
Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about a “Pope” ruling over the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ from Rome?
Pope is simply an Italian name meaning father. Comes from Isa 22:21-22 as the head of a family is called father so the visible head of the church on earth is called father.
Christ is the only head of the church yes, but Peter acts on His behalf as His personal representative, Christ acts vicariously thru Peter and His successors. Hence the vicar of Christ.
Peter received the “keys of the kingdom” jurisdictional authority to govern the church with the apostles until Christ returns. Matt 16:18-19
This same authority belong to the successors of Moses, Matt 23:1-3 and Christ demanded that it be obeyed, then it was taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles.
Matt 21:43 Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Matt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 16:13 Jn 21:21 Jn 13:20 acts 20:28 heb 13:7-17
A cathedral to this day is called the “seat” of the bishop. The seat of authority.
Keys of jurisdictional authority! Open and shut And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22
Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.
Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.
Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.
The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 acts 2:42 eph 5:32
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!
God always establishes peace and order by obedience to the authority of the fathers.
Matt 28:20 acts 1:8 require successors
Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.
Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.
Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.
The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 acts 2:42 eph 5:32
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!
God always establishes peace and order by obedience to the authority of the fathers.
Matt 28:20 acts 1:8 require successors
Did I say they were?
Those who sat in the seat of Moses were, Jesus commanded they be obeyed!
Thanks
Only cos the church is catholic (universal)
You put up the wrong verse...or something.
I look at the "rock" situation like this...
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The gates of hell will not prevail over the church founded upon the "rock" of Jesus being the Son of God.
Peter, on the other hand, thrice denied he even knew Jesus.
Your version of a "rock" was prevailed upon by the gates of hell.
Are you a Jew?
If not, then the message was indeed for all men, regardless of their nationality.
Jesus' teachings concern His fulfilment of the Law and the prophets.
What did he say to the lawyer in Matt 22:36?
" Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Looks to me like the teachings of the OT were over.
Why would this message be hidden from the Gentiles?
Gee.I hear you. And as a Protestant I used to use the same argument all the time against Catholics saying that what Jesus really meant when he said "thou art Cephas/Peter ["little stone"] and upon this Rock [petra = Rock] I will build my church," he meant he would build the church on himself, the Rock [petra]
But in Matthew 16.8 Jesus really is saying he will build the church on Peter as the leader of the church. It's a play on Peter's Aramaic name Kephas [Greek = Cephas] which means "rock." But "you are cephas [stone] and on this rock [petra]" is the only way to render it in Greek. In Aramaic it reads "thou art kephas [= rock] and on this kephas [= rock] I will build my church."
So, Catholics are indeed correct that Jesus is saying he will build His church on Peter. But Catholics are still incorrect to say this supports apostolic succession, because there is no hint of that in the verse.
A scholar that made an error.
How unusual is that ?
Not very.
If they were over why did Jesus re-emphasize them in Matthew 5 to the "Jews"?
The original command as to who the twelve tribes were commanded to love is in Leviticus 19:17-18.
That command is for Israel to love their Covenant brethren.
Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law.
Any change in the Law - such as Covenant brethren to love the unsaved or non-Covenant people who are God's enemies is to destroy the Law.
So, if you love those not in Covenant with God [unsaved] then you are loving God's enemies and this is treason to the King of the "Jews."
It is casting your pearls to swine and giving that which is holy to dogs [non-Covenant.]
That's what you do.
Treason.
The true Church is "Catholic" when God began to include Gentiles.
The head of the Church is in Jerusalem and when the Head returns a second time He will rule from Jerusalem and Rome and ALL Gentile cities, people, and nations will serve Him there.
The Roman Church was a process of time in coming into existence. I believe it was when Pope Leo (ca. 599AD) said he stepped into the FEET of Peter (NOT stepped into the shoes of Peter.)
What an arrogant, prideful thing to say.
Another word for it is OVERlords.
Completely antichristian and antichrist.
Yup.
Matt 5 was before Matt 22.
Things apparently changed.
Are you a Jew?
If not, why read the new testament at all?
If, as you suppose, it is only for the Jews?
What have you got against Gentiles?
Now THAT I couldn't say. But a search of my mother's maiden name revealed the name originated in a "Jewish" grotto many, many years ago. Add to that the fact that the twelve tribes were scattered and taken away after they were conquered by Assyria and Babylon north, east, west, and south and most stayed in their new homes never to return to Israel, there is possibility that their offspring were born in these 'strange' lands for centuries. Then when people began to come to America I'm sure these children (half-, quarter, one-fifth, one-eighth, etc.) found new freedoms here in this land. So, only God knows if I am from "Jewish" descent. But, I will say this, every true born believer belongs to spiritual Israel and to one of the natural twelve tribes. Even my calling leaves me to believe I spiritually am from the tribe of Benjamin like Jeremiah the prophet and Saul/Paul.
The 11 disciples/apostles were sent to herald the message from God to His people living scattered across the then-known world that THEIR Messiah/Christ had come in fulfillment of God's Promise to His people. Each apostle had various spiritual gifts, various temperaments, personalities, education, etc., that allowed them to accomplish their command.
Every person baptized into the Body of Christ by God has a place in the Body of Christ with different spiritual gifts, temperaments, personalities, education, etc., to accomplish their call IF indeed they know their place and their spiritual gifts. MANY Christians DO NOT know their place in the Body of Christ NOR their spiritual gifts for lack of knowledge and being in a false church where the spiritual gifts and the Word of God is taught. Due to Christians being taught falsely they are to preach the gospel what they end up being taught to do is mimic and copy the calling of true Christians who know their place in the Body and their calling to preach to someone somewhere.
Paul said, "are we all apostles?" The answer is "NO!"
But preaching is the MOUTH in the Body of Christ and Christians are ALL taught to BE THE MOUTH and preach to people in disobedience to the Lord for their ignorance to the Scripture and the Word of God.
The original command is in Deuteronomy 6:4-5ff. This was a command of God TO and FOR the twelve tribes of Israel. Notice Jesus didn't change the original Law as to WHO Israel was to love to include swine, and dogs, and reprobates who know not the Lord.
Talk about the coming apostasy prophesied before the Lord comes again.
That's some of it - what Christians are being taught today in American churches at the least and churches of the world at the most.
The Old Testament is over? Super! Great! Now I don't have to have no other gods before me and I can steal and bear false witness and take the Name of the Lord in vain whenever I want without any repercussions!
Hoo-ray!
Thanks for enlightening me! I owe you one!
Things changed? Then Christ destroyed the Law with all the changes you suppose.
The Gospel of Matthew is the most un-chronological gospel of the four.
Do a real study in bibliology to verify that Matthew 5 is indeed before Matthew 22.
Nothing against Gentiles. I have issue when people say they are Christian, but they are not, and true Christians who are in false churches being taught boo-boo, and Christians who don't obey God to read and study His Word so that they may KNOW EXACTLY how to rightly divide His Word of truth. These are dangerous people and will probably be the first whose sins will cause their love to grow cold before Jesus returns and join antichrist and the false prophet in their false church still to come and think they do God service and kill and persecute true Christians in the end times. Just like they are warming up to do now.
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There was no Tabernacle when Pharisees and Sadducees developed in between the time of Exile and the Advent of Christ. So, there was no authority given to them of God. They took it up themselves. A clue to their heresy and absent authority was two sects: Pharisees and Sadducees. Even their names were a clue to their unauthorized grab at power.
Moses never established Pharisees and Sadducees. There's NOTHING in God's Law about them as a ruling or serving class, for that matter.
The "ism" of Judaism ended when their Temple was destroyed. The Catholic Church has stolen many aspects of Tabernacle worship, from the bread to the altar, to the incense, to the candlesticks, etc., and included it in their practices.
The power of the spirit had not yet come until Pentecost
Ask These two about it?
Acts 5:5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Christ ascended and no king administers his own kingdom they always appoint a prime minister
1) How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?
2) How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)
3) How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?
4) why did Christ give the keys to Peter (and only to Peter) keys of jurisdictional authority. Isa 22:21-22 why even bother to mention Peter if he is not involved?
Is a confession blessed or a person?
Thanks
Really? I thought you guys said it was Constantine
The king appointed the ministers and gave them the kingdom and you say you love the king but refuse to accept his kingdom and his ministers that he established and appointed???
Strange anarchy this…