Why didnt God take away the choice without violating freewill

[KV-44-v1]

and Eve since they were made in the image of God, already endowed with all these godly characteristics

similar characteristic God has

For the same reason God allowed Satan to torture Job and tempt Jesus.

But the choice of Adam and Eve had a greater and worse effect on humanity than Job's. Job was born and alive POST-fall. And Jesus only "had" to die for us because of our sin.
Adam and eve, particularly Adam, their choice would affect the path humanity's nature would take. And their actions could either doom or not doom the universe to destruction.

So why did God allow it, then?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But the choice of Adam and Eve had a greater and worse effect on humanity than Job's. Job was born and alive POST-fall. And Jesus only "had" to die for us because of our sin.
Adam and eve, particularly Adam, their choice would affect the path humanity's nature would take. And their actions could either doom or not doom the universe to destruction.

So why did God allow it, then?

God allows Satan to test the faith of his people all the time, throughout the whole bible, whatever Satan does in attempt to usurp God plays right into God's hand as a part of the plan, Job 1 is the most obvious example. Satan tempted Jesus to abuse his power prematurely, almost taunting - you're the son of God, do this and that to prove it. That's the difference between the first Adam and the last - the first failed the test, the last passed.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Just because God responds does not mean His Will is limited.

We obviously have cosmic difference in our understandings of logic. You can have last word and say I don't know what I am talking about and we can leave it at that.

 

[Knotical]

no, that is calvinism. There are lots of "IF we do X"... in the Bible.
There is nothing to suggest we are puppets. Why should anyone praise anyone for doing good if they were programmed to anyway? Your belief wouldn't fly in a court of law. "Oh, my outcome was predetermined anyway." So what's the point of anything if we are just puppets? If we have no freewill is that not a bad reflection on God's Character? Why did Jesus die if no one had a choice anyways? If we have no freewill then why does God punish some people? How can destroying robots be "just"?? If we do not have freewill, how is it just for God to deal with our sin?
What, then, is a human without freewill besides a "glorified" robot? How is your view on human will supposed to be any better than the view of an athiest?

Why do you believe that salvation somehow limits freewill?
Eyes and ears to sense and understand? Sounds like that's not the "humans are robots" camp.

Of course what I am communicating is Calvinism, because when you study the New Testament the closest extra-biblical summary of what the bible teaches is Calvinism. Try reading the Insititutes. You will see what I am talking about.

 

[hawkman]

Moderator note , because we don't agree with someone's theology does not mean they lack understanding .
TOS1.2 Those who identify themselves as Christians will be held accountable to conduct themselves as such. If they are truly governed by the Holy Spirit, they will not continually engage in goading, mocking, insulting, trolling, berating or inciting other members to anger and resentment. They will post in a Spirit of kindness and respect, even if there are doctrinal disagreements, and be quick to reconcile if differences of opinion should get heated. Disciplinary actions will be taken against those whom staff regards to be naming the name of Christ and yet are holding the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[NoahK]

While debating on Reddit, i found this interesting objection.

"And this God could have simply removed the option for [adam and eve] to do that while keeping every other part of their free will intact, and as specified above, it already seems He hates that particular part of humankind's free will, so why not take away from the start instead of setting up a situation where it would be possible for that to happen?"

God isn't about taking. God is about giving.

 

[KV-44-v1]

because when you study the New Testament the closest extra-biblical summary of what the bible teaches is Calvinism

Only if the only Bible summary you DO read is that. What, then, is the purpose of preaching the Gospel? Everyones gonna get their destiny anyways, it won't matter whether you do anything to try and get someone on the right path.

Do you believe that humans can intend to do things? Or no?

If yes, how is that possible without freewill? Contradictory.

 

[Whatever]

Then why did God allow the serpent to tempt them fairly early on instead of, say, 25 years after they were created?

He wanted all their offspring to be born after Adam sinned.

New King James
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Cain was born a sinner and that is why he got angry and killed Abel.

NKJ
Luke 11:50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

Kind of interesting that Jesus was saying that this generation of Jews was guilty of the blood of Abel who was killed probably 4,000 years earlier.

 

[KV-44-v1]

He wanted all their offspring to be born after Adam sinned.

Where is this in the Bible? God hates sin and He loves us, so why would that be?

New King James
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Yes. IDK how these would support your claims.



---------------

Cain was born a sinner and that is why he got angry and killed Abel.

NKJ
Luke 11:50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

Kind of interesting that Jesus was saying that this generation of Jews was guilty of the blood of Abel who was killed probably 4,000 years earlier.

What is the 'main takeaway' here?

 

[Whatever]

It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY. I believe God put the tree in the garden as a test of obedience and compliance, which Adam failed.

But why did God put them in a perfect environment and then give them a test they could fail. We learn from Job that Satan can do nothing that God does not approve of. God know if Satan tempted Eve she would do what Satan said. The fall was necessary for there to be a mass of sinners for His Son to redeem and the Son and Father be glorified.
Rev. 13:8 says that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. The "fix" was in before the story even started.

You guys view of God is a pathetic god who created everything wishing that everything would go well and now has to figure out some way of kind of fixing some of it.

 

[hawkman]

We learn from Job that Satan can do nothing that God does not approve of.

First I have heard of this . Give me the scripture from Job that supports what you said , please .

 

[Hawkins]

While debating on Reddit, i found this interesting objection.

"And this God could have simply removed the option for [adam and eve] to do that while keeping every other part of their free will intact, and as specified above, it already seems He hates that particular part of humankind's free will, so why not take away from the start instead of setting up a situation where it would be possible for that to happen?"

There are many misconceptions involved here.

First, freewill at the end means an entity (angel or human) is given the ability to oppose God by sinning against Law which defines how God is trespassed. So all entities with freewill are given the ability to stay with God or to oppose Him. Options are given for these entities to express or exercise their freewill by will. Some options are give for one to approach God while other options are for one to oppose God. Both sets of options co-exist such that freewill can be exercised. Angels are given less options on the opposing side, and more options in favor of staying with God. They are said to be with a lesser degree of freewill in comparing with that of humans. Angels are entities with a higher degree of ability and intelligence but a lesser degree of freewill, as their very existence is to participate in God's various creations.

This actually says, options can be taken away for both the "staying options" and "opposing options", as more actually have been taken away from the angels "opposing options". Still, both humans and angels can choose to sin in terms of their ability. Now among the two sets of options, the Holy Spirit can softly lead humans to choose the "staying options", while Satan and his angels can do the opposing, that is, leading humans to opt for the "opposing options". This is called temptations to humans. In terms of the angelic ability, this "temptation" setup exists in Eden, planet earth and the future Heaven (i.e., the New Earth and New Heaven mentioned in the book of Revelation). Along the path, it's all about the high intelligence angels interacting with the low intelligence humans, and to see whtat the end result might be. This serves the purpose of creating an evil-free Heaven for angels and humans to live with the sin-incompatible God.

So if Adam's "opposing options", along with the angel/Satan's ability to tempt humans, it simply means freewill doesn't exist as the options of opposing God have all been taken away. More importantly, the future Heaven cannot be built this way. Earth is for all designed freewill to be exercised, then the Final Judgment will decide accordingly who can stay with God in the forever realm, while the future Heaven will be evil-free (all evil will stay here on earth, as the future Heaven is well guarded by the Final Judgment. The pre-requisite is those who are incompatible with God will display their opposing nature here on earth, if their "Adam's option" is taken away then they will enter Heaven to destroy Heaven instead, unless what God has granted are not freewill (i.e., the ability to choose to sin against God).

 

[Vaccine]

Freewill is not an all-or-nothing deal. By that logic, any limits (and we humans have LOTS of those) infringe on our will, make it nonexistent.

I see what you're saying about limitations and I should have been clearer. Free will requires there be no logical limitations. If moral options aren't on the table my free will is nullified.
The Reddit poster thinks removing the choice of knowing good and evil leaves one's free will intact. That logical limitation turns their discussion to one about fate, not free will.

The argument posited in OP could go further:
"God is Omnipotent so He could, say, throw the serpent to the ground and fling it far away before it met Adam n Eve. Or mabye He could have sent a deer to go in front of them, and the deer would dance.
Sin is so bad, it has resulted in so many deaths, tons of destruction, so why would God not want to take these measures? The serpents will would be limited but not taken away, because it would not have met them to begin with. And same goes for any creature if the enemy wanted to use other creatures. So adam n eve's will is intact because they are not faced with such a choice. "

If the only existence a creature knows is devoid of sin from the beginning, they would not know whether they were in heaven or hell. A point of reference is required before anyone knows what hot or cold is. Up or down. Heaven or hell. As Lewis puts it, you have to have some idea of what a straight line is before you call a line crooked.

They aren't putting forth anything new, it's the same argument: evil exists, therefore a good God can't. God obviously considers people wanting to be good superior to having no choice but to be good.
While an existence devoid of sin sounds good to atheists, creating programmed flesh robots isn't truly heaven. They put the cart before the horse.

I know in the end he will right every wrong, let those that believe in Jesus live with him, and let atheists live separated from him, (and all the good he brings into this world), for all eternity. Some receive mercy, some justice, nobody receives injustice.

 

[Free]

It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY.

Where is that in Scripture?

 

[Whatever]

Where is this in the Bible? God hates sin and He loves us, so why would that be?

It's right there. God allowed Satan to tempt Eve before they had any children.

God also hates lying, killing innocent people and bearing false witness. But He ordained it.

Act 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

 

[Whatever]

First I have heard of this

First you have heard of this? Do you read the Bible to discern the truth or just to get through it?

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person
Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."

Sounds to me like permission with limits.

 

[Whatever]

Do you really believe in and accept the God of the Bible?

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
Isa 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

The word "pleasure" there is the Hebrew word ḥēp̄eṣ H2656. The KJV translates Strong's H2656 in the following manner: pleasure (16x), desire (12x), delight (3x), purpose (3x), acceptable (1x), delightsome (1x), matter (1x), pleasant (1x), willingly (1x).

Now you tell me that God desires for all men to be saved. God says He will do all that He desires. Which is it?
I know what 1 Timothy 2:4 says, maybe you are misunderstanding it.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

Ecc 3:14 I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Does the gospel accomplish all of what God pleases? I say yes. But not all men are saved. Maybe that wasn't part of the plan.

Rev_7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

I believe God's eternal plan was to save a multitude of people from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. God is accomplishing it.

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

No one can gripe about what He has done except a lot of people on this forum because "that's not fair."

 

[hawkman]

First you have heard of this? Do you read the Bible to discern the truth or just to get through it?

Truth by all means .

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person
Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."

Sounds to me like permission with limits.

This was for Job and I haven't seen mention in the bible Satan asking permission like this again or even before Job.

We learn from Job that Satan can do nothing that God does not approve of.

It would be speculation to suggest Satan asks for approval from God for all he does to mankind .

Does Satan have to get God’s permission before he can attack us?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where is that in Scripture?

Again, Is. 5:20, 1 Kings 3:9. God expects his people to know good and evil. Show me how else could they know good and evil without eating the tree. Show me any other source of the knowledge of good and evil in the Scripture.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil! (Is. 5:20)

Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?” (1 Kings 3:9)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But why did God put them in a perfect environment and then give them a test they could fail.

For the same reason any school tests its students, any company tests its employees, any board tests its applicants. Consider it God's marshmallow test.