Why didnt God take away the choice without violating freewill

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where is that in Scripture?

Also, "be fruitful and fill the earth" indicates they'll have to leave Eden in order to populate the earth. Show me in what other way can they accomplish this "cultural commandment" while remaining in Eden forever.

 

[Free]

Again, Is. 5:20, 1 Kings 3:9. God expects his people to know good and evil. Show me how else could they know good and evil without eating the tree. Show me any other source of the knowledge of good and evil in the Scripture.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil! (Is. 5:20)

Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?” (1 Kings 3:9)

Okay, so you don’t have any biblical evidence of your claim. It’s entirely based on assumption.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Okay, so you don’t have any biblical evidence of your claim. It’s entirely based on assumption.

Is. 5:20 is my evidence. Explain to me why it's woeful not knowing good and evil, if it's God's will for us to never eat of the tree. And show me how can we know good and evil apart from the tree.

 

[Whatever]

For the same reason any school tests its students, any company tests its employees, any board tests its applicants.

But they weren't in school. They were told to populate the Earth. They were simply to live, tend the garden and have kids.

 

[Whatever]

It would be speculation to suggest Satan asks for approval from God for all he does to mankind .

It's what theologians call a good and necessary inference.

New King James
Mathew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

The Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. It appears this was set up by God for a purpose.

David and the census. 1Chronicles 21:1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Samual 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

The word "moved" there in both sentences is H5496 sûth. It means to incite, allure, instigate, entice

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

It's obvious that God moved David by using Satan to move David. Here we are getting into causality. God was the primary cause and Satan was the secondary cause.

Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Satan is a created being and he cannot do anything God does not allow.
Act 17:25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

Satan depends upon God for every second of his existence. He isn't this autonomous thing that just runs around and does whatever he wants.

 

[hawkman]

We learn from Job that Satan can do nothing that God does not approve of.

Can't agree with the above . I found nothing to support it . Inference you say .

Satan depends upon God for every second of his existence. He isn't this autonomous thing that just runs around and does whatever he wants.

We were talking about "approve" but now you want talk about Satan' limits , two different things .

Nothing more to say on this .

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

While debating on Reddit, i found this interesting objection.

"And this God could have simply removed the option for [adam and eve] to do that while keeping every other part of their free will intact, and as specified above, it already seems He hates that particular part of humankind's free will, so why not take away from the start instead of setting up a situation where it would be possible for that to happen?"

Everyone has their own view of "free will". Some see it as a pathway to eternal life if the person makes the right choices with his free will or a pathway to destruction if he doesn't. Others see "free will" as not existinng for mankind because they think God makes all peoples' choices for them. Both points of view revolve around man making the right choice. The only difference is that one says he is free to choose right or wrong and the other says he has no freedom to choose because God determines ahead of time what choice he must make.

But the focus on the excercise of one's will is misplaced (whether free or coerced). God has chosen, with no counsel from man, to save those who believe the seemingly foolish message that His Son Jesus Christ died on the cross for their sins (1 Cor 1:21). His decision to save those who believe was made before the foundation of the world, and it was not preceeded with determining who would believe and not believe. Otherwise, His decision on who to save would not be on the basis of one's trust in Christ. It be on the basis of whatever motivated Him to choose who would believe and who would not.

And believing in Christ is a human ability possessed by all humans who have a certain amount of maturity and mental health. But deciding to trust in Christ exhibits no moral virtue. On the contrary, it only demonstrates that the person knows and agrees with God that he is a filty, rotten, sinner in need of a Savior and agreement with God that Jesus is willing and able to save them from the penalties they face for being evil.

 

[Free]

Is. 5:20 is my evidence. Explain to me why it's woeful not knowing good and evil, if it's God's will for us to never eat of the tree. And show me how can we know good and evil apart from the tree.

Why not first show how there is any connection between Isa 5:20 and "It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY"? You say Isa 5:20 is your evidence, but you have not at all shown how it can support your claim.

 

[Free]

Is. 5:20 is my evidence. Explain to me why it's woeful not knowing good and evil, if it's God's will for us to never eat of the tree. And show me how can we know good and evil apart from the tree.

Actually, let's put an end to the need for further discussion. You stated: "It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY." You stated that as though it were true.

But, what you should have stated was: "It is my opinion that it wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY. That is only my opinion, based on Isa 5:20, but there is no actual evidence for it as it isn't implicitly or explicitly stated in Scripture."

 

[Fastfredy0]

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,

Evil is never good and good is never evil, but it is good that evil exists; otherwise, God would never have allowed it.
R.C. Sproul

 

[KV-44-v1]

good that evil exists; otherwise, God would never have allowed it.

good how? in what way? What verses do you think back this?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But they weren't in school. They were told to populate the Earth. They were simply to live, tend the garden and have kids.

They can't "populate the earth" and "tend the garden" at the same time, because the garden was NOT the whole earth. That's a misconception which many people are preoccupied with. They were exepected to LEAVE the garden first when they were grown up, then they could populate the earth. Think about this as a kid graduates high school and then leaves his parents to have his own life - exactly as God designed - "leave your parents and join your spouse". But that's not what Adam and Eve did, they deviated from that design as they fell to temptation and prematurely ate the forbidden fruit.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why not first show how there is any connection between Isa 5:20 and "It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY"? You say Isa 5:20 is your evidence, but you have not at all shown how it can support your claim.

The "knowledge" from the tree of knowledge is the knowledge of good and evil, that's the connection. My claim is that Christians of all people are expected to know the difference between good and evil. If you disagree, show me any evidence that suggests we should rather be ignorant by not knowing good and evil.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Actually, let's put an end to the need for further discussion. You stated: "It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY." You stated that as though it were true.

But, what you should have stated was: "It is my opinion that it wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY. That is only my opinion, based on Isa 5:20, but there is no actual evidence for it as it isn't implicitly or explicitly stated in Scripture."

Do not put words in my mouth, I said what I said. You're as despicable as the talking heads on the lamestream media who habitually do so to frame a false narrative. I don't wanna have any beef with you, so drop it and stop picking up on me.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,

Evil is never good and good is never evil, but it is good that evil exists; otherwise, God would never have allowed it.
R.C. Sproul

Evil is not of its own entity, but the ABSENCE of good. Satan is not the counterpart of God, but the oppoent, adversary, enemy of God, that's what "Satan" means in Hebrew, his daison d'etat is negation of God, he's only a friction against God's motion, that's the nature of evil.

 

[Whatever]

They were exepected to LEAVE the garden first when they were grown up, then they could populate the earth.

Adam and Eve were created as mature adults.

Gen 2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.

Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

The bolded part above is a generational thing. They would do that over time by having kids and then those offspring eventually spreading out. Genesis 3:24 says God drove them out of the garden "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

 

[Whatever]

good how? in what way? What verses do you think back this?

I would reply that whatever glorifies God is good.

New King James
Act 4:26 THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' 27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

The greatest evil ever committed was determined beforehand to be done. It brought about the salvation of a multitude of people.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Adam and Eve were created as mature adults.

You don't know that. Emotional and spiritual maturity don't always come naturally with physical maturity. Paul called out some his readers as "babes“ who are spiritually immature, remember?? I'm sure they were grownups, but still they can only digest milk, not solid food.

 

[Whatever]

I'm sure they were grownups, but still they can only digest milk, not solid food.

So, "don't eat fruit from that one tree in the middle of the garden" would take 20 years of maturity to understand?

God did not create Adam as a blank slate. Adam was pre-programmed to do everything he was told to do. He named all the animals. I would bet Adam was a lot more intelligent than most of us today.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So, "don't eat fruit from that one tree in the middle of the garden" would take 20 years of maturity to understand?

Actually, God didn't say that, Adam added "in the middle of the garden" and "don't touch it", how many years of maturity do you think would it take to relay a critical message faithfully in its original form?

God did not create Adam as a blank slate. Adam was pre-programmed to do everything he was told to do. He named all the animals. I would bet Adam was a lot more intelligent than most of us today.

You don't know that, it's just your guess. Also, IQ is not EQ. Adam took the fruit from Eve, hide from God, then he blamed Eve, and he also subtly blamed God for createing Eve (Gen. 3:12), so blank state or not, that shows his emotional immaturity, he was acting like a child.