Why didnt God take away the choice without violating freewill

[Carry_Your_Name]

You don't seem to understand that there is nothing to counter. You made a claim and provided no support.

You're guilty of what you're accusing me - fallaciously begging the question, which I've spelt out repeatedly, and you never answered. I have provided legitimate support from Is. 5:20 - the expectation for mankind to know good and evil, which you denied without any biblical support of your own.

Of course we are, this side of the Fall.

Then since we are on "this side of the Fall," why were some folks still don't know good and evil, as Isaiah proclaimed woe unto them? Was the knowledge of good and evil lost in history or something? See, you're the one begging the question, not me.

I'm merely pointing out that your claim has not been supported, which is necessary for any truth claim.

And I'm merely point out that you're bearing false witness against your neighbor. If not, then refute me with your own biblically supported counter claim. If there's "nothing to counter", then enjoy the rest of your day, may God bless.

 

[Free]

You're guilty of what you're accusing me - fallaciously begging the question, which I've spelt out repeatedly, and you never answered.

Where have I begged the question, specifically?

I have provided legitimate support from Is. 5:20 - the expectation for mankind to know good and evil, which you denied without any biblical support of your own.

No, that is not at all legitimate support for your claim that "It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY." I'll just tell you now that there is no biblical support for such a claim.

Then since we are on "this side of the Fall," why were some folks still don't know good and evil, as Isaiah proclaimed woe unto them? Was the knowledge of good and evil lost in history or something?

Really? Do you not understand the context of Isa 5:20? Even before looking at the context I knew what it is saying and your questions are misplaced. Look at the context, the entire chapter. Isa 5:20 is a "woe" for those who "call evil good and good evil." Do you know what a "woe" is? Do you not understand what is going on in society currently that is directly relevant to that verse?

See, you're the one begging the question, not me.

No, it's not me.

And I'm merely point out that you're bearing false witness against your neighbor.

That is a serious charge. Please show me exactly where I did so.

If not, then refute me with your own biblically supported counter claim. If there's "nothing to counter", then enjoy the rest of your day, may God bless.

Just did.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where have I begged the question, specifically?

Everywhere. You begged the question: are we expected to know good and evil at all? Answer it, or stop bothering me.

Really? Do you not understand the context of Isa 5:20? Even before looking at the context I knew what it is saying and your questions are misplaced. Look at the context, the entire chapter. Isa 5:20 is a "woe" for those who "call evil good and good evil." Do you know what a "woe" is? Do you not understand what is going on in society currently that is directly relevant to that verse?

I do, you don't. You said we're on "this side of the Fall", that's the side where mankind has known good and evil but cut off from the tree of life, so why are these folks, already on "this side of the Fall", still don't know good and evil, and woe unto them? See, you've just begged another fallacious question.

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” (Gen.3:22)

No, it's not me.

Yes it's you.

That is a serious charge. Please show me exactly where I did so.

Accusing me of begging the question, which is what you did.

Just did.

No you didn't. If you had, then answer the questionS. But you never had, you're just condescendingly calling me not knowing or understanding things, as though those are the Emperor's new clothes only visible to you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What we've got here is failure to communicate"​

Free Carry_Your_Name

What we've got here is failure to communicate

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I'll just tell you now that there is no biblical support for such a claim.

And I just tell you loud and clear there is: spiritually mature Christians are expected to discern good and evil, that's what "readiness" is referring to. Discerning not anything else but GOOD and EVIL, which is exactly the content of the forbidden fruit - from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So either God wants his children to be spiritually immature without access to the knowledge of good and evil forever, and Paul was wrong to criticize, or maybe you're wrong for denying a legitimate claim and falsely accusing me what you're guilty of.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb. 5:12-14)

 

[Free]

Everywhere.

Read below and then maybe you'll want to change that answer.

You begged the question: are we expected to know good and evil at all? Answer it, or stop bothering me.

If you think that is begging the question, then you don't know what the begging the question fallacy is. And, I did answer that question: “Of course we are, this side of the Fall.”

I do, you don't. You said we're on "this side of the Fall", that's the side where mankind has known good and evil but cut off from the tree of life, so why are these folks, already on "this side of the Fall", still don't know good and evil, and woe unto them?

Your questions prove you don’t understand what Isa. 5:20 is saying. It’s actually very basic, so I don’t know why you don’t understand.

Isa 5:8 Woe to those who join house to house, who add field to field, until there is no more room, and you are made to dwell alone in the midst of the land.
Isa 5:9 The LORD of hosts has sworn in my hearing: “Surely many houses shall be desolate, large and beautiful houses, without inhabitant.
Isa 5:10 For ten acres of vineyard shall yield but one bath, and a homer of seed shall yield but an ephah.”
Isa 5:11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late into the evening as wine inflames them!
Isa 5:12 They have lyre and harp, tambourine and flute and wine at their feasts, but they do not regard the deeds of the LORD, or see the work of his hands.
Isa 5:13 Therefore my people go into exile for lack of knowledge; their honored men go hungry, and their multitude is parched with thirst.
Isa 5:14 Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her.
Isa 5:15 Man is humbled, and each one is brought low, and the eyes of the haughty are brought low.
Isa 5:16 But the LORD of hosts is exalted in justice, and the Holy God shows himself holy in righteousness.
Isa 5:17 Then shall the lambs graze as in their pasture, and nomads shall eat among the ruins of the rich.
Isa 5:18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes,
Isa 5:19 who say: “Let him be quick, let him speed his work that we may see it; let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near, and let it come, that we may know it!”
Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
Isa 5:22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink,
Isa 5:23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right!
Isa 5:24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 5:25 Therefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against his people, and he stretched out his hand against them and struck them, and the mountains quaked; and their corpses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger has not turned away, and his hand is stretched out still. (ESV)

The "woes" are the sins of the people to which God will respond in judgement. (See also Mat. 23 and the "woes" to the scribes and Pharisees.) Verse 20 is self-explanatory, but what it is saying is precisely what we also see today--the world calls all manner of evil good, such as the killing of unborn children, euthanasia, transgenderism, multiple sexual partners, drunkenness, etc., and says Christian beliefs are evil.

It is also what these verses are speaking of:

Pro 17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD. (ESV)

Rom 14:16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. (ESV)

How can that be?

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, (ESV)

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (ESV)

Isa. 5:20 is not saying that people don’t know good from evil. It is saying that because the people turned from God and his law and indulged more and more in sin, their minds were blinded by Satan and so saw evil as good (sacrificing children to Molech, for example) and good as evil. Such people actually know good from evil but in their unrighteousness suppress that knowledge so that they can indulge in sin. It happened then and it has continued to happen throughout history.

See, you've just begged another fallacious question.

Now I see that you really do not understand what begging the question actually means in terms of critical thinking. You think it means the informal, colloquial sense of "That raises the question." But that is not the sense I am using it. Look up the begging the question fallacy. It means the conclusion is assumed in one of the premises. You also called your own question fallacious, which means it contains a fallacy, an error in reasoning. I'm not sure I can disagree with that.

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” (Gen.3:22)

Yes, and how is that relevant to your claim?

Accusing me of begging the question, which is what you did.

But, you did, not I. You began with the claim that “It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY.” For support you stated that we must know good and evil because the Bible tells us to. But, that is after the Fall. Eating of the tree of knowledge is what brought evil and sin into the world in the first place, which is precisely why we are told to know good from evil. If Adam and Eve had not done so, then there would be no sin and evil in the world (unless something happened after that) and there would be no need to know good from evil.

No you didn't. If you had, then answer the questionS. But you never had, you're just condescendingly calling me not knowing or understanding things, as though those are the Emperor's new clothes only visible to you.

With all due respect, you really do not seem to be understanding Isa 5:20.

 

[Dave...]

I'm throwing in my two cents worth. Hopefully it will better this discussion in some way, or not. Then I'm bowing out, or not. I'll try real hard.

When speaking of free will, what are you claiming to be free from?

Often times God's sovereignty is pitted against man's free will. This is a problem because God is sovereign over everything, and man is responsible for his actions, both are true. The Bible says so. Does this make man 'free' of the council of Gods will who ordains all things from the foundations of the world? Nope. Joseph was sold into slavery. God meant it for good, Joseph's brother meant it for evil. One act, God ordained it. God is glorified for His part. Saving His people. Joseph's brothers will be judged for their part, which was sin.

I think we must also consider that while God ordained all things and is sovereign over all things, it doesn't mean that He positively caused all things. I believe that 'predestined' speaks of the smaller context, that is, the things that God actively caused. What is left under the umbrella of "ordained" is what God allowed to happen. Also keep in mind that this is not God reacting in time. This 'allowing' was also from the foundations of the world. Knowing the effect of every cause, He put His stamp of approval on it. God is sovereign over everything. He doesn't need to positively cause it to be sovereign over it.

Adam and Eve would inevitably sin. I'm convinced of this. God created them that way. The only way they would avoid eventually sinning is if God made them like Him, as God. In His image, yes, but God cannot deny Himself. That's why they were kept in a state of ignorance.

God Ordained the day that we were born, and the day we will die. It's all ordained. The Bible says so. Also, God is not bound by time. And He can do things that would be sinful for us to do, but not for Him. Be careful to hold Him to our standards.

When we don't understand how to piece it together in our minds, we should be very carful using our flawed reasoning over scripture.

It's my personal opinion that most of these 'free will' discussions are flawed from the start by using a humanistic idea of free will, and not a biblical one. I think of many times the secular liberals who gnash their teeth at any notion of God's sovereignty, but never consider that they are doing the same thing when they have an abortion. BTW, yes, God ordained that too. Taken in a state of innocence, that child gets instant heaven. God is glorified for His part. The mother will be judged for hers.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Some interesting quotes that may apply.

"There are serious questions concerning the logical compatibility of comprehensive divine foeknowledge and libertarian freewill. The idea, roughly, is this. If God knows already what will happen in the future, then God knowing this is part of the past and is now fixed, impossible to change...If God knows that a person is going to perform [some act], then it is impossible that the person fail to perform it, so one does not have a free choice whether or not to perform it." William Hasker

Dabney explains it better.

"5th. From the Arminian doctrine of conditional election, must flow this distinction, admitted by many Wesleyans. Those who God foresaw would believe and repent, He thereupon elected to adoption. But all Arminians believe that an adopted believer may "fall from grace." Hence, the smaller number, who God foresaw would persevere in gospel grace, unto death, He thereupon elected to eternal life. And the persons elected to eternal life on foresight of their perseverance, are not identical with those elected to adoption on foresight of their faith. But now, if the former are, in the omniscience of God, elected to eternal life on foresight of their perseverance, then they must be certain to persevere. We have here, therefore, the doctrine of the perseverance of this class of the elect.

Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will by John Hendryx

www.monergism.com

 

[Dave...]

Here are two very clear biblical examples of God's sovereignty and man making a responsible choice (compatibilism) in action at the same time.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

 

[Whatever]

Does it glorify God to punish sin? Yes/no

What do you mean by "glorify?"

Romans 9:17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

Paul is referring her to Exodus 9:16 where God said this to Pharaoh. He was saying that displaying His power by wiping out the Egyptians would result in His name being proclaimed in all the Earth and I assume this would bring God glory.

NASB
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
(God to Pharaoh "I raised you up for this very purpose.")

If yes, then sinning a lot is good??!

Paul has already answered your question:
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

People wouldn't need to be saved if humans didn't rebel in the 1st place.

Yes, but you have to say that at the least, it was planned for from the beginning.
Rev. 13:8 . . .the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

I think the very question of this thread is why? If God knew it would happen, why didn't He do something different. Why let all the evil and suffering happen just to make a fix for it?

This is what Theologians call Theodicy: a vindication of the divine attributes, particularly holiness and justice, in establishing or allowing the existence of physical and moral evil.
Greek = theo "God" + dík(ē) "justice"

Here is a link to Monergism where they have 7 articles on this.

Search | Monergism

Monergism.com is a free, comprehensive online theological library comprised of Reformed Christian resources designed to bring glory to Jesus Christ alone.

www.monergism.com

 

[KV-44-v1]

He was saying that displaying His power by wiping out the Egyptians would result in His name being proclaimed in all the Earth and I assume this would bring God glory.

Because pharoh kept abusing his freewill.
If he obeyed perhaps God's Name would be even more proclaimed. So God made the most of the situation. He is perfect, He can make the most out of any situation He chooses.

Perhaps God raised him up because alternatives would ultimately be worse?

Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

So then God is glorified by what He DOES to bad things/people, yes?

Does sin itself "glorify" God in your view??

Yes, but you have to say that at the least, it was planned for from the beginning.

Planned FOR. Yep, God knew man would rebel and He already knew what to do.

Rev. 13:8 . . .the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

I think the very question of this thread is why?

it is

If God knew it would happen, why didn't He do something different. Why let all the evil and suffering happen just to make a fix for it?

This is what Theologians call Theodicy: a vindication of the divine attributes, particularly holiness and justice, in establishing or allowing the existence of physical and moral evil.
Greek = theo "God" + dík(ē) "justice

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you think that is begging the question, then you don't know what the begging the question fallacy is. And, I did answer that question: “Of course we are, this side of the Fall.”

No you didn't. "On this side of the Fall" indicates knowing good and evil, but why "those" in Is. 5:20 don't?

Your questions prove you don’t understand what Isa. 5:20 is saying. It’s actually very basic, so I don’t know why you don’t understand.

And I don't know why you don't understand the biblical fact that we're expected to discern good and evil, and what's the fun of being smug, combatative and relentless.

Isa. 5:20 is not saying that people don’t know good from evil. It is saying that because the people turned from God and his law and indulged more and more in sin, their minds were blinded by Satan and so saw evil as good (sacrificing children to Molech, for example) and good as evil. Such people actually know good from evil but in their unrighteousness suppress that knowledge so that they can indulge in sin. It happened then and it has continued to happen throughout history.

Or maybe these people have been so indoctrinated by Satan that they genuinely don't know good from evil, and they refused to be challenged and corrected, that just proves my point - they are not ready. Given the choice of good and evil, they choose evil, not good. Kill, steal and destroy is always easier than creating from the scratch, right?

Now I see that you really do not understand what begging the question actually means in terms of critical thinking. You think it means the informal, colloquial sense of "That raises the question." But that is not the sense I am using it. Look up the begging the question fallacy. It means the conclusion is assumed in one of the premises. You also called your own question fallacious, which means it contains a fallacy, an error in reasoning. I'm not sure I can disagree with that.

The conclusion is "spiritual maturiry", assumed not in any of my premises, but in the bible itself, in Heb. 5:14. If that is deemed fallacious to you, then so be it, you go enjoy your hubris.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, and how is that relevant to your claim?

That shows people are supposed to have known good and evil, but I said, many do not. You think they are consciously suppressing good to indulge in evil, I believe they genuinely don't know because they're born and raised in a 1984 system where good is evil and evil is good. Since you've brought up the sick society we're living in, you know that better than I do.

But, you did, not I. You began with the claim that “It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY.” For support you stated that we must know good and evil because the Bible tells us to. But, that is after the Fall. Eating of the tree of knowledge is what brought evil and sin into the world in the first place, which is precisely why we are told to know good from evil. If Adam and Eve had not done so, then there would be no sin and evil in the world (unless something happened after that) and there would be no need to know good from evil.

God knew us from the foundation of the earth, and you're saying God adjusted his plan to a new "post-Fall" reality? In case you don't notice, BEFORE the Fall God had already said to Adam and Eve "be fruitful and fill the earth", that means they'll eventually leave Eden - when they were ready to leave. How else were they supposed to populate the whole earth?

I don't know what kind of god you're talking about. The Almighty God I worship never changes, He is beyond time and space, He has declared the end from the beginning, there's no "before and after" for Him. If there were no need to know good and evil, he wouldn't have planted the tree in the middle of the garden in the first place.

With all due respect, you really do not seem to be understanding Isa 5:20.

With all due respect, you really do not seem to be understanding spiritual maturity. Heb. 5:12 is written for you - " For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food."

 

[Whatever]

Because pharoh kept abusing his freewill.

Do you really read the Bible?

Gen 15:13 Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.
Gen 15:14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.

400 years before it happened God said He would judge that nation (Egypt) and the people (Israel) will come out with great possessions.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Moses hadn't even gone back to Egypt yet and God tells him that He will harder Pharaoh's heart. Why? So that God can do all the signs and wonders - see verses below

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 7:4 But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. (What God told to Abraham 400 years ago)
Exo 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

What was God's purpose? So that the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD
Exodus 7:17 This is what the Lord says: By this you will know that I am the Lord: With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood.

Exodos 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.”

Exodus 14:18 The Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen.”

Plain simply reading of the text tells me that it was God's plan to do all those miracles in Egypt and drown Pharaoh and his army in the sea to gain glory for Himself and show them and us that it is it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:31

 

[Free]

No you didn't.

If you don't want others to supposedly bear false witness against you, you shouldn't be doing it to others.

"On this side of the Fall" indicates knowing good and evil, but why "those" in Is. 5:20 don't?

I explained this.

And I don't know why you don't understand the biblical fact that we're expected to discern good and evil

I have never denied that.

Or maybe these people have been so indoctrinated by Satan that they genuinely don't know good from evil, and they refused to be challenged and corrected,

For some, perhaps. For many, they do know good from evil but suppress the truth, ignore their conscience, and choose to do evil. For many, perhaps most, they simply call evil good and good evil because of the hardness of their hearts.

that just proves my point - they are not ready.

What does this have to do with your initial claim? What does supposedly not being ready have to do with it?

Given the choice of good and evil, they choose evil, not good. Kill, steal and destroy is always easier than creating from the scratch, right?

What does “creating from scratch” have to do with anything?

The conclusion is "spiritual maturiry", assumed not in any of my premises, but in the bible itself, in Heb. 5:14.

Yes, post-Fall.

That shows people are supposed to have known good and evil, but I said, many do not.

How?

You stated: 'Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” (Gen.3:22)'

I responded: "Yes, and how is that relevant to your claim?"

But your response is another jump based on an assumption. How do you go from a verse showing humans' rebellion against God by eating from "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," to it showing that "people are supposed to have known good and evil"?

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (ESV)

Where in the above, never mind in the entirety of Scripture, do you get the idea that "it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY"? Was there going to be a point when they could eat of it and not "surely die"? When they would know good and evil and live forever?

You think they are consciously suppressing good to indulge in evil, I believe they genuinely don't know because they're born and raised in a 1984 system where good is evil and evil is good. Since you've brought up the sick society we're living in, you know that better than I do.

Regardless of whether or not people suppress the truth or genuinely don't know, how does any of that have any bearing on your initial claim that "It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY"?

God knew us from the foundation of the earth, and you're saying God adjusted his plan to a new "post-Fall" reality?

I have stated no such thing.

In case you don't notice, BEFORE the Fall God had already said to Adam and Eve "be fruitful and fill the earth", that means they'll eventually leave Eden - when they were ready to leave. How else were they supposed to populate the whole earth?

You’re again fallaciously begging the question by assuming that if Adam and Eve hadn’t sinned there would still be sin and evil in the world. This seems to be the central problem with your claim.

I don't know what kind of god you're talking about. The Almighty God I worship never changes, He is beyond time and space, He has declared the end from the beginning, there's no "before and after" for Him.

Which I fully agree with and has nothing to do with anything I have stated.

If there were no need to know good and evil, he wouldn't have planted the tree in the middle of the garden in the first place.

Again, assumption.

You still haven’t provided support for anything. Your entire position is based on assumptions.

 

[Whatever]

Because pharoh kept abusing his freewill.
If he obeyed perhaps God's Name would be even more proclaimed. So God made the most of the situation. He is perfect, He can make the most out of any situation He chooses.

I guess I'm flabbergasted by this because it is not the God I see in the Bible.
This view seems to be that everything that has happened in history was a chance event. "if so and so had acted different, then God would have acted differently." Thus all of history might have been different.

If the Jews had been more obedient, then God might not have had the Assyrians and Babylonians come and take them away. Daniel might not have been in Babylon in the first place and never written his book .

I have heard people like this say that Jesus didn't even have to be crucified.
Luke 4:28 So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luke 4:29 and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff.

They would say that if they had succeeded in killing Him right there, that death would have been enough.
But they would have to ignore all the Scriptures foretelling the crucifixion. Just one:
John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

Psalm 33 (New American Standard Bible)
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.
10 The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
The plans of His heart from generation to generation.

Does that sound like a God who simply reacts to what people do?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Does that sound like a God who simply reacts to what people do?

I'm on your side.

Only God has free will where free will is defined as self-determination/uninfluenced . Being all power and all wise the only way the best things can occur is when God determines (plans, ordains) all things.
To the degree that man has free will (no external influences) God does not have "free will".
To the degree that man has free will (no external influences) God is under the control of man; the inferior controls the superior.
It is logically impossible for an immutable, external God to know the future if said future is to be determined by entities that at one time did not exist. ( ex nihilo nihil fit)

Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.
Acts 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, because it is He who gives to all [people] life and breath and all things
In other news, God determined that my New York Yankees bound for the World Series.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you don't want others to supposedly bear false witness against you, you shouldn't be doing it to others.

You don't know truth from falsehood, it's all just your own perception.

I explained this.

No you didn't.

I have never denied that.

If so you wouldn't have started this silly argument.

For some, perhaps. For many, they do know good from evil but suppress the truth, ignore their conscience, and choose to do evil. For many, perhaps most, they simply call evil good and good evil because of the hardness of their hearts.

No, because according to the bible, "everyone did what was right in his own eyes."

In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes. (Judges 21:25)

What does this have to do with your initial claim? What does supposedly not being ready have to do with it?

Not being spiritually mature to discern good and evil is not being ready for the knowledge of good and evil.

What does “creating from scratch” have to do with anything?

The difference from "kill, steal and destroy". You don't seem to be spiritually mature enough to understand God's first and foremost identity - Creator of the Universe.

Yes, post-Fall.

God knows everything from the beginning, spiritually is not an afterthought or a reaction to the Fall.

How?

You stated: 'Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” (Gen.3:22)'

I responded: "Yes, and how is that relevant to your claim?"

But your response is another jump based on an assumption. How do you go from a verse showing humans' rebellion against God by eating from "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," to it showing that "people are supposed to have known good and evil"?

When God has drafted the entire human history from the very beginning. He never changes, and neither was his plan. If Adam and Eve were never supposed to have known good and evil, the tree would never have been planted in Eden in the first place, for God does not tempt us, neither can he be tempted (James 1:13).

I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’ (Is. 46:9-10)

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (ESV)

Where in the above, never mind in the entirety of Scripture, do you get the idea that "it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY"? Was there going to be a point when they could eat of it and not "surely die"? When they would know good and evil and live forever?

Yes, when those who believe in Jesus are resurrected, and reigning with him in eternal life.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:17)

Regardless of whether or not people suppress the truth or genuinely don't know, how does any of that have any bearing on your initial claim that "It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY"?

As I have repeatedly stated, that readiness is spiritual maturity to discern good and evil, which you don't seem to have as you've decided to deliberately play dumb. I ask you again, how to discern good and evil without the knowledge of good and evil?

I have stated no such thing.

Then why did you throwing out the "post Fall" label?

You’re again fallaciously begging the question by assuming that if Adam and Eve hadn’t sinned there would still be sin and evil in the world. This seems to be the central problem with your claim.

Satan's existence is NOT an assumption, nor were his evil angels. If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, Satan and his angels would still be hanging around.

"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Rev. 12:9)
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. (Job 1:6)

Which I fully agree with and has nothing to do with anything I have stated.

No you don't, or you wouldn't have thrown out the "post Fall" label as though spiritual maturity was a fix in the new "post Fall" reality.

Again, assumption.
You still haven’t provided support for anything. Your entire position is based on assumptions.

So somehow your "post fall" and "suppress the truth" are not assumptions? You're undermining God's omniscience with your "post fall" theory and contradicting both reality and Judges 21:25 with your "suppress the truth" claim.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

For some, perhaps. For many, they do know good from evil but suppress the truth, ignore their conscience, and choose to do evil. For many, perhaps most, they simply call evil good and good evil because of the hardness of their hearts.

This is a fallacious claim, a justification of your own biased assumption - that everyone is a Pharoah or a pharisee who's so hard hearted beyond reproach. Most were, as I pointed out, indoctrinated by the Pharoahs and pharisees. It doesn't matter to Isaiah whether one's consciously lying to themselves or genuinely not knowing the difference, he delivered woe unto both, and what I'm saying is, there're more in the latter category than the former.

 

[Whatever]

It is logically impossible for an immutable, external God to know the future if said future is to be determined by entities that at one time did not exist. ( ex nihilo nihil fit)

We probably agree, but this one statement sounds like "open theology." I've read a little about it but not sure of all of what it entails. It seems to say that even God cannot know the future because it doesn't exist until it happens.

But God is kind of questioning the false gods with a test of predicting the future:
Isa 44:7 And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them.

I looked up the word "proclaim" in Strongs and it is nâgad. It seems to mean to manifest; figuratively to announce (always by word of mouth to one present); specifically to expose, predict, explain,.