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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?
- Thread starter RBDERRICK
- Start date
RIGHTEOUSNESS is different than faith.
See the thread,,,as soon as I can get to my computer. Will tag you in.
In reviewing my prior post, I realize that should have also included that Christ was faithful to and perfectly accomplished the mission that God the Father set before Him. Namely, that Christ alone completed and brought to fruition the promise God had made to Abraham to bring forth salvation through his (Abraham's) loins by Christ. Christ was faithful and obedient to the Father's will and achieved all promised by God, which promise, is salvation. By that faithfulness, those saved have reckoned to them a faith in Christ given solely as a gift.
[Gen 22:16-18 KJV]
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
(Christ alone is the author and finisher of our faith, by whom, is it received)
[Gal 3:17 KJV]
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(the law cannot disannul God's promise made to Abraham)
[Gal 3:29 KJV] 29
And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(They who are in Christ are in Christ solely from the Father's promise to Abraham)
[Rom 9:7-8 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Those who are in Christ are in Christ solely from the Father's promise to Abraham)
[Gal 3:8-9 KJV]
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
("God would justify the heathen through faith" - God Himself and alone, was the one to justify the heathen through faith: Christ's faith. The heathens -- which at some point we all were -- are not justified by our faith - justification can only be from Christ's faith.)
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
[2Th 3:3 KJV] 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil.
[Rev 19:11 KJV] 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
(Christ very name is Faithful and True)
Runmyramble
Member
Well here are some question I hope we can find an answers to. So hope you don't mind the ramble of thoughts to see how they fit in this ignima.
First there is a difference between righteousness and justification.
Hopefully it's not a translation issue.
Then some scholars say there is imputed righteousnes and imparted righteousness.
So what does the above look like? And which scripture show these differences?
Going off thoughts one is Imputed when they believe in the one that has the authority and power to get what He wants done.
So it could mean counted or credit
Example:
Maybe, as a bank gives a loan to invest in you until you gain what you need to double your loan and pay them back
In this case one might say we are given His Spirit in this case? As a guarentee ?
Imparted on the other hand may happen when you have continued to obey or be loyal to the Spirit.
Maybe it's like saying In order to portray Love you first Will have to be shown love.
So as you walk in the love you were shown you developed a new quality about you. Which is imparted because you walked by the Love you were given.
First there is a difference between righteousness and justification.
Hopefully it's not a translation issue.
Then some scholars say there is imputed righteousnes and imparted righteousness.
So what does the above look like? And which scripture show these differences?
Going off thoughts one is Imputed when they believe in the one that has the authority and power to get what He wants done.
So it could mean counted or credit
Example:
Maybe, as a bank gives a loan to invest in you until you gain what you need to double your loan and pay them back
In this case one might say we are given His Spirit in this case? As a guarentee ?
Imparted on the other hand may happen when you have continued to obey or be loyal to the Spirit.
Maybe it's like saying In order to portray Love you first Will have to be shown love.
So as you walk in the love you were shown you developed a new quality about you. Which is imparted because you walked by the Love you were given.
Not sure of your point
Runmyramble
Member
For some reason I end up posting and don't mean to..
Stuff I never finished because I needed to look other scriptures up..so disregard the first post...tks
Are you kidding me?
If you are actually "debating" whether or not Jesus had faith, how can you not be confused?
RBDERRICK
Supporter
We believe Jesus for salvation, not ourselves, The faith is of the body, while personal faith is for each member.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2)
We're not justified by our own works, nor saved by our own faith.
To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (Titus 1)
The common faith of Jesus is His word written in Scripture, that we must all do and obey, if we are believing Him.
Our personal faith is for matters of personal conscience only, within the common faith is for all the churches of God.
Ex: To eat meat or drink wine is a matter of personal conscience, which is our personal faith we are not to defile. So one member by personal faith chooses not to eat or drink, while another does, and neither of them are better nor worse than the others.
But the common faith of Jesus declares that no glutton nor drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The common faith is the common rule of the body, while personal faith of conscience is for each member to live by within the body.
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.
The faith of Jesus that saves is to be obeyed by all, but our personal faith is only practiced by each member according to conscience.
Ex: If my faith says I am saved by grace while getting drunk, then may faith saves nothing, but is only deceiving me.
The faith of Jesus says no drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God.
But if my says I can drink wine without getting drunk, then that is my liberty in the law of the Lord. And if another say I will not drink by faith, then that is one's conscience in the Lord.
Too many believers think just because they believe something for themselves, that every other believer must do the same, and begin to teach their own personal faith for that of Jesus' whole body.
They don't know what they are doing and only bringing strife and division into the body.
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Teachers of the faith of Jesus are teachers of the law of Christ we must obey to be within the body.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
The reformation of Christ is to spiritually purify the hearts of those seeking to keep His law.
Spiritual fellowship within the light leads to fulfilling the righteousness of the law, and not the outward letter only.
Those not seeking to do the law at all, are not even in the race.
The letter kills, if only the letter is obeyed without the Spirit.
The letter itself is not dead, because without letters, jots, and tittles, there would be no Scripture of law at all.
Letters are not the problem, but letters without the Spirit is the problem.
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
And so Christ ministers the Spirit with the letter, and not as the Pharisee who ministers the letter only, and ends up killing the spirit and Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:5-6, "Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as if it were coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who made us adequate to be servants of a new covenant not based on the letter but on the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. NET
It is not a good idea to add to or change what Scripture clearly says. There is no clause that says " if only the letter is obeyed without the Spirit.".
Also, you're changing what "letter" means from its meaning -- the law -- to it's grammatic interpretation. Not a good idea.
Very good post.
I agree with all you've said and you've stated it very well.
Faith is a noun. It's a thing; the substance of the thing hoped for.
Believe is a verb, and carries the idea of obey in the original.
Trusting is also a verb.
So no, faith doesn't mean trusting belief.
Faith comes to us when we hear God speak to us.
Our believing and therefore obeying what God speaks to us activates the faith we received, otherwise our faith remains dormant or dead, and therefore inactive.
If we do something or have something "by faith", it simply means God told us to do something and we obeyed.
JLB
Runmyramble
Member
We are saved by both...but not without Jesus.
The faith/faithfulness of Jesus is obedience to God, fulfilling God's Will
He became the Source of salvation...for all who would believe
Another words God is not just the God of the Jew who were once under the law...
through Jesus death on the cross...He frees those who were under the law...so that anyone who believes can Live by the Spirit. (Jews and Gentiles)
So now we all can be governed under His rule and receive the promised Spirit by faith....
So as God once directed the Jews and they failed by their own natural abilities (flesh) to keep the law....
Now it is shown How one can uphold the Law....by the Spirit and not by the letter of the law....For the letter killeth, but the Spirit is Life.
So with the Spirit of Christ we can conquer the flesh...
If we by the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh we shall live.
We are to be transformed by the renewing of the mind....
So what was Jesus's Faith He obeyed His father......and in His obedience He was faithful unto death....where He took on the penalty of sins on the cross by the shedding of His blood? But He is also is faithful because death could not hold life (God)
And so He is our High priest who lives forever to INTERCEED on the behalf of those who come to Him.....
So He Saved those from their past sins
And because He lives He can also save you from your present sins.
For if you sin we have an advocate with the father Christ Jesus.
So we are saved through His faith/faithfulness ..
Because if He did not die He would not have reconciled us, and if we were not given His Spirit we would not be able to continue to live or have eternal life by Him. In my opinion
So now we are given His Spirit.....and this is where I see Duet 30..amazing passage
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the Lord thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Lord will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Runmyramble
Member
What denomination are you?
Runmyramble
Member
The faith of Jesus is a faith that works by love......We are also given a measure if faith
With/by/through Christ's perfect offering was a new priesthood established and with it a new law brought into being -- the old law being disannulled.
[Heb 7:11-12, 15-19 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
What is that new law?
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The law of Christ ITSELF made Paul free from the law of sin and death. It was by nothing that Paul did.
How does it enter in?
[Heb 10:16-18 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
God Himself puts it into the heart and writes it into the mind, and to whom He does, there is no longer any offering for sin needed nor possible.
You guys just seem to have a big problem in believing that Jesus Christ is the one and only Saviour. If He is the Saviour (and He is), then no one else can be the Saviour - there can't be two. Period. What about that is so difficult to understand? You seem to bring your tippy toes right up to the line but for some reason, are unable to step over it.
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RBDERRICK
Supporter
Letters are not dead. They only kill without the Spirit.
Taking all Scripture into context to show the full sense of Scripture, is not adding to nor taking away from Scripture.
The example of the letter of the law killing without the Spirit of the law:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Matthew 23)
Jesus' reform for doers of the law, is to cleanse spiritually within first, that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled, and not the outward performance of the letter only.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
Thank you very much. I put my heart and time into every posting, even as when ministering to others in person.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
True. Through Jesus Christ living within us, we fulfill the righteousness of the law, and not the letter only.
The righteousness of God is not helping a neighbor, just because we are commanded to, but because we now love to from the heart.
No man can fulfill the righteousness of the 2nd great commandment, without first fulfilling the first great commandment.
Doing the letter of the law outwardly is good and better than being a transgressor, but it is not good enough in order to be justified by Christ.
We must first receive Jesus within the heart, that all we do is through faith in Him from the heart:
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men. (Col 3)
The righteousness of God is simple and easy to do, if we have Jesus and the power of His Spirit dwelling within:
Not sinning against Him and His law, and going about doing good as occasion provides:
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. (Acts 10)
And so, the difference between seeking justification with God as by law and our own righteousness, and being justified by Jesus through faith and doing His righteousness, is simple:
It is the difference between doing something only because it is law, and doing the same thing but with a pure heart of charity.
The former is outwardly by the letter only, and the latter is inwardly first by the Spirit.
People can tellfis someone is doing something begrudgingly, or is doing so because it is good and right from the heart.
And God is the One who looks on the inside first:
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. (1 Sam 16)
If a word or deed is not by the faith of Jesus from the heart, then it is not justified by Christ, no matter what that word or deed is.
Unbelieving sinners around the world ban be helpful neighbors, but that does not justify any man with God.
Only His dear Son is justified with Him, and so only them loving His dear Son and others from the heart is accepted of Him.
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